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Is there a diff between gay and incest/polyg?

Nac
Posts: 326
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4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.
SirCrona
Posts: 139
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4/1/2015 9:10:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

The difference is that Mormons don't practice homosexuality.

For a serious answer: Incest can lead to serious birth defects and that's why it's illegal. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to try people who commit incest as sex offenders, but it's still bad.
Nac
Posts: 326
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4/1/2015 9:38:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 9:10:35 AM, SirCrona wrote:

The difference is that Mormons don't practice homosexuality.

For a serious answer: Incest can lead to serious birth defects and that's why it's illegal. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to try people who commit incest as sex offenders, but it's still bad.
It seems as if that would necessitate those with birth defects not reproducing, so I prefer not to deny them this on that basis. However, that is a notable difference. Thank you.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/1/2015 1:27:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Regarding the incest comparison, incest usually involves at least one of two things: a minor and/or a power imbalance. Forget about the minor part for a moment, since that's illegal and should make the stigma obvious. The power imbalance is recognized in other scenarios as being unethical and often illegal. For instance, it's unethical (maybe illegal) for a therapist to sleep with a patient. It's illegal for a prison guard to sleep with an inmate. In the case of a child being raised to adulthood by a parent, it similarly follows that it is at least unethical for the parent to sleep with that (grown) child. In contrast, homosexuality does not involve a minor or an overt power imbalance in most cases. And any incidences that do involve those things are rightly looked upon with disdain.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice, and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/1/2015 2:17:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 1:27:05 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Regarding the incest comparison, incest usually involves at least one of two things: a minor and/or a power imbalance. Forget about the minor part for a moment, since that's illegal and should make the stigma obvious. The power imbalance is recognized in other scenarios as being unethical and often illegal. For instance, it's unethical (maybe illegal) for a therapist to sleep with a patient. It's illegal for a prison guard to sleep with an inmate. In the case of a child being raised to adulthood by a parent, it similarly follows that it is at least unethical for the parent to sleep with that (grown) child. In contrast, homosexuality does not involve a minor or an overt power imbalance in most cases. And any incidences that do involve those things are rightly looked upon with disdain.

I don't think that is called incest.
It is often considered rape or sexual assault, but I don't think a power balance equates to incest. After all, two cousins hooking up is incest, but there is no power imbalance.
My work here is, finally, done.
Nac
Posts: 326
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4/1/2015 3:14:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice,
I was not attempting to say that it was, if you are attempting to argue against my claim above. What I was intending to say was that they have the desire to have relations with others of their gender, and that they choose to act on this desire.

The desire is not a choice, but acting upon it is. Because I define homosexuality as the former, I acknowledge that it is not a choice.
and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

While that does certainly help, the implication of my first post was the inquiry of why they are rallied against if homosexuality is accepted. At least, that was the intent. I apologize if it was unclear.

I'll attempt to contextualize it to allow for some clarity

I used to also hold that it was also the same as bestiality and pedophilia, and actively stand against on those grounds. However, I realized the foundation was shaky as consent is impossible in those relationships (if that is the correct word).

Afterwards, I had no issue with homosexuality, incest, or polygamy, as I saw them all as relationships between legally consenting human beings.

However, implications show that this is disagreed upon by others who accept homosexuality.

All this is to say, I see no reason as to why the two forms of marriage should be denied solely on that support
So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/1/2015 4:08:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 2:17:28 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 1:27:05 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Regarding the incest comparison, incest usually involves at least one of two things: a minor and/or a power imbalance. Forget about the minor part for a moment, since that's illegal and should make the stigma obvious. The power imbalance is recognized in other scenarios as being unethical and often illegal. For instance, it's unethical (maybe illegal) for a therapist to sleep with a patient. It's illegal for a prison guard to sleep with an inmate. In the case of a child being raised to adulthood by a parent, it similarly follows that it is at least unethical for the parent to sleep with that (grown) child. In contrast, homosexuality does not involve a minor or an overt power imbalance in most cases. And any incidences that do involve those things are rightly looked upon with disdain.

I don't think that is called incest.
It is often considered rape or sexual assault, but I don't think a power balance equates to incest. After all, two cousins hooking up is incest, but there is no power imbalance.

I didn't say power imbalance = incest. I said incest almost always means a power imbalance. Parent-child and sibling are the most universally stigmatized forms of incest, and both almost always involve a power imbalance.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 7:34:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

It is exactly the same thing. All can be put under unnatural acts that offend God and the queen.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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4/1/2015 7:36:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice, and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.

I can't help being attracted to my sister, she is hot. Nor can I help being attracted to multiple women. Polygamy and incest are not a choice.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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4/1/2015 9:17:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Homosexuality - sexual desire, attraction or behavior between a person or persons of the same sex.

Incest - the act of sexual activity between closely related persons.

Polygamy - the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, especially wife, at one time.

There is the difference.
Skynet
Posts: 674
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4/1/2015 11:09:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 7:36:02 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice, and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.


I can't help being attracted to my sister, she is hot. Nor can I help being attracted to multiple women. Polygamy and incest are not a choice.

lol. I can't help but liking Wylted's posts.
One perk to being a dad is you get to watch cartoons again without explaining yourself.
jowett
Posts: 32
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4/2/2015 1:02:35 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 11:09:18 PM, Skynet wrote:
At 4/1/2015 7:36:02 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice, and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.


I can't help being attracted to my sister, she is hot. Nor can I help being attracted to multiple women. Polygamy and incest are not a choice.

lol. I can't help but liking Wylted's posts.

No one is more thought-provoking, succinct, or entertaining.
He's the best person on ddo.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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4/2/2015 8:52:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

'The ceremony of marriage was intended to be a bond of love between two (families of different) surnames, with a view, in its retrospective character, to secure the services in the ancestral temple, and in its prospective character, to secure the continuance of the family line.' (Book of Rites 44.1)

Incest is blatantly wrong. There can be zero justification for it. Marriage is between two people from different families.

Homosexuality would be wrong according to those who present the procreation argument, and I don't think they're wrong in principle, but I think modern technologies like IVF are good enough substitutes that it is not much of an issue. Even adoption is fine in my opinion because the important thing is that the children can inherit and immortalise the spirit of the ancestors, and worship them duly.

Polygamy doesn't violate the general definition of marriage, but I think they're a thing of the past. In modern society, we should embrace equality of the sexes and put polygamy back into the museums and history books where they belong. It is also detrimental to family harmony. Another argument I just thought of is that husband and wife should be equal, but the concubines are of lower status than the wife, i.e. not equal. Such a relationship cannot be part of the Five Cardinal Relationships and thus should have no place in society
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/2/2015 12:22:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 7:36:02 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 4/1/2015 2:14:39 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Um, being gay is not a choice, and means you are attracted to the same sex. It is not person specific.
Incest is having sex with a relation, because you are attracted to them specifically. I am not aware of people who are ONLY attracted to their relations. Same goes for polygamy.

So, yes, there is a huge difference between them.


I can't help being attracted to my sister, she is hot. Nor can I help being attracted to multiple women. Polygamy and incest are not a choice.

Hmmmm, the way you worded this....You are good at painting corners, aren't you?
Hotness is subjective, and what makes her hot is not the fact that she is your sister; she is hot for other reasons. Similarly, the fact that you are attracted to others is not because they are "others".
While being gay, the hotness is part due to the gender.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/2/2015 1:29:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:08:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/1/2015 2:17:28 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 1:27:05 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Regarding the incest comparison, incest usually involves at least one of two things: a minor and/or a power imbalance. Forget about the minor part for a moment, since that's illegal and should make the stigma obvious. The power imbalance is recognized in other scenarios as being unethical and often illegal. For instance, it's unethical (maybe illegal) for a therapist to sleep with a patient. It's illegal for a prison guard to sleep with an inmate. In the case of a child being raised to adulthood by a parent, it similarly follows that it is at least unethical for the parent to sleep with that (grown) child. In contrast, homosexuality does not involve a minor or an overt power imbalance in most cases. And any incidences that do involve those things are rightly looked upon with disdain.

I don't think that is called incest.
It is often considered rape or sexual assault, but I don't think a power balance equates to incest. After all, two cousins hooking up is incest, but there is no power imbalance.

I didn't say power imbalance = incest. I said incest almost always means a power imbalance. Parent-child and sibling are the most universally stigmatized forms of incest, and both almost always involve a power imbalance.

I misunderstood.
"Domestic", as in domestic violence laws, doesn't require relations, just an intimate relationship (like doctor/patient), so I thought you were giving a legal definition of incest or something.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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4/2/2015 1:44:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 3:14:00 PM, Nac wrote:
Ah, good, you are not a troll.

I knew what you were getting at, but your title is what I responded to.
I'll respond in a while.
My work here is, finally, done.
Nac
Posts: 326
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4/3/2015 7:35:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 9:17:36 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Homosexuality - sexual desire, attraction or behavior between a person or persons of the same sex.

Incest - the act of sexual activity between closely related persons.

Polygamy - the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, especially wife, at one time.

There is the difference.

Thank you for correcting me. The phrasing was flawed as I notice I have compared an action to an attraction.

My question then becomes: is there a difference between acting upon homosexuality and incest/polygamy?
Nac
Posts: 326
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4/3/2015 7:40:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 4:08:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/1/2015 2:17:28 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 4/1/2015 1:27:05 PM, Burzmali wrote:
Regarding the incest comparison, incest usually involves at least one of two things: a minor and/or a power imbalance. Forget about the minor part for a moment, since that's illegal and should make the stigma obvious. The power imbalance is recognized in other scenarios as being unethical and often illegal. For instance, it's unethical (maybe illegal) for a therapist to sleep with a patient. It's illegal for a prison guard to sleep with an inmate. In the case of a child being raised to adulthood by a parent, it similarly follows that it is at least unethical for the parent to sleep with that (grown) child. In contrast, homosexuality does not involve a minor or an overt power imbalance in most cases. And any incidences that do involve those things are rightly looked upon with disdain.

I don't think that is called incest.
It is often considered rape or sexual assault, but I don't think a power balance equates to incest. After all, two cousins hooking up is incest, but there is no power imbalance.

I didn't say power imbalance = incest. I said incest almost always means a power imbalance. Parent-child and sibling are the most universally stigmatized forms of incest, and both almost always involve a power imbalance.

If there is legal consent between both parties, then would it be considered acceptable?

It seems like this line of reasoning implies only that this imbalance is negative, and it does not always exist. However, the prevalence of this concept is salient to the conversation, so I thank you for the contribution.
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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4/3/2015 3:06:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/3/2015 7:35:13 AM, Nac wrote:
At 4/1/2015 9:17:36 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Homosexuality - sexual desire, attraction or behavior between a person or persons of the same sex.

Incest - the act of sexual activity between closely related persons.

Polygamy - the practice or condition of having more than one spouse, especially wife, at one time.

There is the difference.

Thank you for correcting me. The phrasing was flawed as I notice I have compared an action to an attraction.

My question then becomes: is there a difference between acting upon homosexuality and incest/polygamy?

Yes. Homosexuality is an innate sexual orientation, while incest usually refers to people who choose to engage in sexual behavior with someone related to them, even if they are not aware of their relation. Polygamy is more of a cultural phenomenon and refers to people who choose have multiple partners for whatever reason.

In all honesty, acting upon heterosexual desires is no less comparable to incest or polygamy than acting upon homosexual desires.
Nac
Posts: 326
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4/16/2015 6:41:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/2/2015 8:52:13 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

'The ceremony of marriage was intended to be a bond of love between two (families of different) surnames, with a view, in its retrospective character, to secure the services in the ancestral temple, and in its prospective character, to secure the continuance of the family line.' (Book of Rites 44.1)
This seems to also conclude that infertility is grounds for marriage being denied.
Incest is blatantly wrong. There can be zero justification for it. Marriage is between two people from different families.
Could you please substantiate this?
Homosexuality would be wrong according to those who present the procreation argument, and I don't think they're wrong in principle, but I think modern technologies like IVF are good enough substitutes that it is not much of an issue. Even adoption is fine in my opinion because the important thing is that the children can inherit and immortalise the spirit of the ancestors, and worship them duly.
Could this not happen with all conceptions of marriage?
Polygamy doesn't violate the general definition of marriage, but I think they're a thing of the past. In modern society, we should embrace equality of the sexes and put polygamy back into the museums and history books where they belong. It is also detrimental to family harmony. Another argument I just thought of is that husband and wife should be equal, but the concubines are of lower status than the wife, i.e. not equal. Such a relationship cannot be part of the Five Cardinal Relationships and thus should have no place in society

Is this not the right of the wives to forsake these rights? Are we actually removing rights from a woman when we state that she cannot be in this position? It seems to be her choice.

I apologize for the late reply.
SirCrona
Posts: 139
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4/17/2015 7:03:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 9:38:57 AM, Nac wrote:
At 4/1/2015 9:10:35 AM, SirCrona wrote:

The difference is that Mormons don't practice homosexuality.

For a serious answer: Incest can lead to serious birth defects and that's why it's illegal. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to try people who commit incest as sex offenders, but it's still bad.
It seems as if that would necessitate those with birth defects not reproducing, so I prefer not to deny them this on that basis. However, that is a notable difference. Thank you.

What I meamt was: child born in an incestuous relationship increase the chance of recessive genetic disorders dramatically. Two urelated people having a kid may not have one of these problems at all depending on their genes, but with two close relatives there is at least one and likely more disorders that the baby has a 1 in 4 chance of getting because the parents' similar dna made them both carriers to the same diseas since everyone is a carrier for something or another. It's not the people who are given the defects who aren't allowed to reproduce.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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4/17/2015 8:03:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's OK. ^^ (I'm sure I replied to you this morning, but turns out I can't find my post... I must have clicked 'review', gone to another tab because it took so long to load, and forgot to submit.)

At 4/16/2015 6:41:01 PM, Nac wrote:
At 4/2/2015 8:52:13 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

'The ceremony of marriage was intended to be a bond of love between two (families of different) surnames, with a view, in its retrospective character, to secure the services in the ancestral temple, and in its prospective character, to secure the continuance of the family line.' (Book of Rites 44.1)
This seems to also conclude that infertility is grounds for marriage being denied.
I believe I've addressed that when I addressed the procreation argument.
Incest is blatantly wrong. There can be zero justification for it. Marriage is between two people from different families.
Could you please substantiate this?
I don't believe in the 'marriage is between a man and a woman' or 'marriage is between two individual stuff'. Marriage should be about the joining of two families, or a bond of love between two families like Legge's translation said. It makes no sense that two people from a single family are married.
Homosexuality would be wrong according to those who present the procreation argument, and I don't think they're wrong in principle, but I think modern technologies like IVF are good enough substitutes that it is not much of an issue. Even adoption is fine in my opinion because the important thing is that the children can inherit and immortalise the spirit of the ancestors, and worship them duly.
Could this not happen with all conceptions of marriage?
Yes, but procreation isn't the only argument made against marriages. I didn't say anything about babies in my argument against incest, did I? ;)
Polygamy doesn't violate the general definition of marriage, but I think they're a thing of the past. In modern society, we should embrace equality of the sexes and put polygamy back into the museums and history books where they belong. It is also detrimental to family harmony. Another argument I just thought of is that husband and wife should be equal, but the concubines are of lower status than the wife, i.e. not equal. Such a relationship cannot be part of the Five Cardinal Relationships and thus should have no place in society

Is this not the right of the wives to forsake these rights? Are we actually removing rights from a woman when we state that she cannot be in this position? It seems to be her choice.
When we look at society as a whole, polygamy has had vastly detrimental impacts in the past. The most important issue is the relationships between the wives, and between the children born to different mothers. There has been too much in-fighting inside families caused by polygamy. Plus, as I've pointed out, there is no husband-concubine relationship in the Five Cardinal Relationships because by definition, husband and wife should be equal, and it is immoral to have concubines of inferior status to the husbands.
I apologize for the late reply.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/13/2015 5:14:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 7:03:37 AM, SirCrona wrote:
At 4/1/2015 9:38:57 AM, Nac wrote:
At 4/1/2015 9:10:35 AM, SirCrona wrote:

The difference is that Mormons don't practice homosexuality.

For a serious answer: Incest can lead to serious birth defects and that's why it's illegal. I'm not sure if it's appropriate to try people who commit incest as sex offenders, but it's still bad.
It seems as if that would necessitate those with birth defects not reproducing, so I prefer not to deny them this on that basis. However, that is a notable difference. Thank you.

What I meamt was: child born in an incestuous relationship increase the chance of recessive genetic disorders dramatically. Two urelated people having a kid may not have one of these problems at all depending on their genes, but with two close relatives there is at least one and likely more disorders that the baby has a 1 in 4 chance of getting because the parents' similar dna made them both carriers to the same diseas since everyone is a carrier for something or another. It's not the people who are given the defects who aren't allowed to reproduce.

I'm still not sure I understand. Can we bar a man and a woman from having kids if they both have genetic disorders? It seems as if this case mirrors an incestuous relationship.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/13/2015 5:32:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/17/2015 8:03:05 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
It's OK. ^^ (I'm sure I replied to you this morning, but turns out I can't find my post... I must have clicked 'review', gone to another tab because it took so long to load, and forgot to submit.)

At 4/16/2015 6:41:01 PM, Nac wrote:
At 4/2/2015 8:52:13 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

'The ceremony of marriage was intended to be a bond of love between two (families of different) surnames, with a view, in its retrospective character, to secure the services in the ancestral temple, and in its prospective character, to secure the continuance of the family line.' (Book of Rites 44.1)
This seems to also conclude that infertility is grounds for marriage being denied.
I believe I've addressed that when I addressed the procreation argument.
Incest is blatantly wrong. There can be zero justification for it. Marriage is between two people from different families.
Could you please substantiate this?
I don't believe in the 'marriage is between a man and a woman' or 'marriage is between two individual stuff'. Marriage should be about the joining of two families, or a bond of love between two families like Legge's translation said. It makes no sense that two people from a single family are married.
It is fair that you hold this definition of marriage personally, but I disagree that this should be held as an objective standard. It seems that this definition changes from person to person.
Homosexuality would be wrong according to those who present the procreation argument, and I don't think they're wrong in principle, but I think modern technologies like IVF are good enough substitutes that it is not much of an issue. Even adoption is fine in my opinion because the important thing is that the children can inherit and immortalise the spirit of the ancestors, and worship them duly.
Could this not happen with all conceptions of marriage?
Yes, but procreation isn't the only argument made against marriages. I didn't say anything about babies in my argument against incest, did I? ;)
Polygamy doesn't violate the general definition of marriage, but I think they're a thing of the past. In modern society, we should embrace equality of the sexes and put polygamy back into the museums and history books where they belong. It is also detrimental to family harmony. Another argument I just thought of is that husband and wife should be equal, but the concubines are of lower status than the wife, i.e. not equal. Such a relationship cannot be part of the Five Cardinal Relationships and thus should have no place in society

Is this not the right of the wives to forsake these rights? Are we actually removing rights from a woman when we state that she cannot be in this position? It seems to be her choice.
When we look at society as a whole, polygamy has had vastly detrimental impacts in the past. The most important issue is the relationships between the wives, and between the children born to different mothers. There has been too much in-fighting inside families caused by polygamy. Plus, as I've pointed out, there is no husband-concubine relationship in the Five Cardinal Relationships because by definition, husband and wife should be equal, and it is immoral to have concubines of inferior status to the husbands.

I am still of the belief that they should be able to accept the risks of such a union if they so choose. They should be educated about different paths to choose, as all people should, but I do not think they should be deprived of the ability to practice whatever they so choose.

In regards to the Five Cardinal Relationships, I am unsure if this is an objective standard. Could you please discuss its scope?

Thank you for putting up with my late responses. You are free to respond in the same fashion if you are disgusted with my inability to correct my mistakes.
TruthS4yer
Posts: 55
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5/17/2015 7:53:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.
If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?
Every country with the death penalty for same-sex relationships legally practises polygamy, while in every country where same-sex marriage is legal, polygamy is illegal, that I'm aware. Similarly, consanguineous marriages (incest) are vastly more prevalent in the nations that mandate capital punishment for SS relationships than those that have legal SS marriage. This is tabulated and sourced here:
http://homoresponse.blogspot.co.uk...

Anyhow, one of the previous posters did a good job of describing the heightened probability of exploitation etc involved in incestuous relationships. Neither incest nor polygamy are intrinsically immoral (or harmful) but both are associated with greatly increased risks of destructive/exploitative relationships. Relationships that incorporate these destructive aspects, whether incestuous/polygamous or not, should be discouraged but absolute bans on polygamy/incest themselves will always victimise the innocent to some extent.

I see no moral issue with the formation of a loving relationship between siblings separated at birth later in life for instance or with one person loving more than one other person simultaneously. The people engaged in the relationships get to decide if they want them... society's intervention can only be justified if the consent of somebody involved has been negated or eroded via coercion or exploitation, for instance.
Please avoid quoting all of large posts - it needlessly means we have to scroll through them to navigate a thread.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 1:52:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/17/2015 7:53:29 PM, TruthS4yer wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.
If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?
Every country with the death penalty for same-sex relationships legally practises polygamy, while in every country where same-sex marriage is legal, polygamy is illegal, that I'm aware. Similarly, consanguineous marriages (incest) are vastly more prevalent in the nations that mandate capital punishment for SS relationships than those that have legal SS marriage. This is tabulated and sourced here:
http://homoresponse.blogspot.co.uk...
Interesting. I didn't know this extended beyond our country. Thank you.
Anyhow, one of the previous posters did a good job of describing the heightened probability of exploitation etc involved in incestuous relationships. Neither incest nor polygamy are intrinsically immoral (or harmful) but both are associated with greatly increased risks of destructive/exploitative relationships. Relationships that incorporate these destructive aspects, whether incestuous/polygamous or not, should be discouraged but absolute bans on polygamy/incest themselves will always victimise the innocent to some extent.
Fair enough, as long as it is not illegal, I see no issue.
I see no moral issue with the formation of a loving relationship between siblings separated at birth later in life for instance or with one person loving more than one other person simultaneously. The people engaged in the relationships get to decide if they want them... society's intervention can only be justified if the consent of somebody involved has been negated or eroded via coercion or exploitation, for instance.
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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5/18/2015 7:53:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Well, the difference between polygamy and homosexuality, in contrast with incest, is that the former do not lead to what I would call "genetic degeneration", in the case of homosexuality it cannot lead to that--by definition. This is not the case with incest.

As for the difference between polygamy, or polyamory, and homosexuality. Well, that is much more of a cultural issue in the west, and polygamy is usually associated with oppression of women.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.
Nac
Posts: 326
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5/18/2015 7:57:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 7:53:59 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Well, the difference between polygamy and homosexuality, in contrast with incest, is that the former do not lead to what I would call "genetic degeneration", in the case of homosexuality it cannot lead to that--by definition. This is not the case with incest.
Fair point, but does this not imply that couples with hereditary disorders should not marry? It seems to lead to the same outcome

As for the difference between polygamy, or polyamory, and homosexuality. Well, that is much more of a cultural issue in the west, and polygamy is usually associated with oppression of women.

Do you think that these two phenomena are linked?
HououinKyouma
Posts: 1,030
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5/18/2015 8:11:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/18/2015 7:57:45 PM, Nac wrote:
At 5/18/2015 7:53:59 PM, HououinKyouma wrote:
At 4/1/2015 8:26:33 AM, Nac wrote:
The full title was meant to be: Is there a difference between homosexuality and incest/polygamy, but I was unable to fit that into the topic.

Before I continue, I would like to make my position clear. I have no problem with any of the things mentioned here. I see all of these as someone's choice to proceed with their natural feelings. The silencing of this desire can lead to a inner conflict between the acceptance of themselves and the acceptance of others, so I would like to perform my task of removing bias.

However, it seems that, at least in my experience, homosexuality is accepted while the others are rejected. If this is more scarce than I have been led to believe, please correct me.

If you hold the position that one should be accepted while the other's are decried, I am eager to learn: why?

Thank you for your consideration of this issue.

Well, the difference between polygamy and homosexuality, in contrast with incest, is that the former do not lead to what I would call "genetic degeneration", in the case of homosexuality it cannot lead to that--by definition. This is not the case with incest.

Fair point, but does this not imply that couples with hereditary disorders should not marry? It seems to lead to the same outcome

Well, first of all, this is the main objection to incest, there are others though. The difference between incest, and the case you described, is that in the former the inheritance of deficient genes is increased, which is not the case of the example you mentioned.


As for the difference between polygamy, or polyamory, and homosexuality. Well, that is much more of a cultural issue in the west, and polygamy is usually associated with oppression of women.

Do you think that these two phenomena are linked?

There certainly is a correlation. However, there is no necessary connection between polygamy and oppression of women. The opposite might actually be a possible outcome, i.e., that the husband might be bossed around by his two (or more) wives.

Historically, though, the first instance has been more common.
"Here the ways of men part: if you wish to strive for peace of soul and pleasure, then believe; if you wish to be a devotee of truth, then inquire." F. Nietzsche.

"Freedom is always freedom for the one who thinks differently." R. Luxemburg.

"The principle of the masochistic left is that, in general, two blacks make a white, half a loaf is the same as no bread." G. Orwell, paraphrase.

"Islamophobia is a word created by fascists, used by cowards, to manipulate morons". Andrew Cummins.