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Gay People and the Desire to have Children

Daltonian
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5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

So, my broader question is - gay people, do you want to have children? Will you adopt, or would you pursue surrogacy? Are there moral implications of that? Is it immoral to want a biological child by means as extensive as surrogacy when there are children in need, ready to be adopted?

Thoughts from anyone would be appreciated. And, please, I don't want to debate the morality of homosexuality here. No attacks. Thanks for taking the time to read!
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Daltonian
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5/20/2015 6:30:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Oh, and, Lesbians would pursue IVF and not surrogacy, too - the question applies in that respect as well. I need to stop forgetting about my female comrades. :/
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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5/20/2015 6:39:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

I don't think it's scummy.

So, my broader question is - gay people, do you want to have children? Will you adopt, or would you pursue surrogacy? Are there moral implications of that? Is it immoral to want a biological child by means as extensive as surrogacy when there are children in need, ready to be adopted?

Both.

I don't see any really pressing moral implications.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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TheChristian
Posts: 1,031
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5/20/2015 6:43:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:39:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

I don't think it's scummy.

So, my broader question is - gay people, do you want to have children? Will you adopt, or would you pursue surrogacy? Are there moral implications of that? Is it immoral to want a biological child by means as extensive as surrogacy when there are children in need, ready to be adopted?

Both.

I don't see any really pressing moral implications.

Yeah, simply put- I want kids.
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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5/20/2015 6:46:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:39:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

I don't think it's scummy.
I wouldn't judge someone for it, but I could maybe debate that morality dictates people should adopt orphans or impoverished children before having their own.

So, my broader question is - gay people, do you want to have children? Will you adopt, or would you pursue surrogacy? Are there moral implications of that? Is it immoral to want a biological child by means as extensive as surrogacy when there are children in need, ready to be adopted?

Both.

I don't see any really pressing moral implications.
I mean, there is a part of me that (maybe by natural human instinct) wants to reproduce and have biological children. And I tell myself that that's because I love children; I'm an advocate for them, I want to share a bond with a child and raise one to be a full fledged member of society. But do I really love children if I insist on having one biologically, and not adopting one who is in need and requires a supportive family?

Am I really someone who is advocate for children if I pursue surrogacy, or am I engaging in subtle narcissism as a result of my insistence to produce a child reflection of myself?

I think, if I was going solely on the morality of it, I'd go and work in Africa, and help children there; adopt as many as I could support. But on the same token, there will be a part of me that is always depressed - that I never had that newborn baby, "I made this" feeling.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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5/20/2015 6:47:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:43:40 PM, TheChristian wrote:
Yeah, simply put- I want kids.
Adopted, or biological?
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,100
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5/20/2015 6:51:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:46:49 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:39:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

I don't think it's scummy.
I wouldn't judge someone for it, but I could maybe debate that morality dictates people should adopt orphans or impoverished children before having their own.

Would that only apply to homosexuals, though? If heterosexuals can have biological children, what should stop homosexuals from having biological children?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Daltonian
Posts: 4,797
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5/20/2015 6:56:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:51:33 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:46:49 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:39:48 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?

I do. I love kids, and even from a young age, I'd dreamed of having some when I grew up. This was something I especially struggled to cope with when I was 12/13 (I'm a month or so away from being 16 now) and was trying to get out of the "denial phase" to accept my sexuality. I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need. I've grown to accept that that is the moral path for me to take in life. However, I still can't get past the fact that I'll never get to hold a newborn baby and appreciate the beauty of it - that this is something I'd made, and a real, biological part of me I'm leaving behind.

That might sound scummy to some, and that isn't to suggest that parents don't have attachments to adopted children, but it's a feeling I cannot help but have.

I don't think it's scummy.
I wouldn't judge someone for it, but I could maybe debate that morality dictates people should adopt orphans or impoverished children before having their own.

Would that only apply to homosexuals, though? If heterosexuals can have biological children, what should stop homosexuals from having biological children?
No, I'd say it applies to all people. I mean, if you want to have children, you're provided with two options:

(1) Raise an already born orphan or impoverished child who is in need of a stable, loving family
(2) Either as homosexual through surrogacy/IVF or as a heterosexual the traditional way, birth a new child presumably for the purpose of having biological continuity.

If one's priority was a genuine care for children, they'd probably pursue the first option to the best of their capacity. Really, you're prioritizing your own desire to leave a biological legacy behind when you create your own child; and not the net best interest of children. But it's a human instinct and it's something I can't help but want in life.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
Daltonian
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5/20/2015 6:59:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.
What (if anything) did you have trouble coping with when you were trying to accept your sexuality? For me, it was the children thing and the concept of having an abnormal life; and the fact that people might perceive me differently or think of me as "the one gay guy in the school", rather than as "Dalton", the distinct person. Mostly the child thing, though. I'm still getting really down about that, to this day.
F _ C K
All I need is "u", baby
ESocialBookworm
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5/20/2015 7:05:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.

Rev said we're having a son, Daniel.
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1harderthanyouthink
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5/20/2015 9:29:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.

A lot of 20 year olds say that.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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5/20/2015 9:32:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 9:29:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.

A lot of 20 year olds say that.

But few 20 year olds can say they don't have any interest in sex.
1harderthanyouthink
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5/20/2015 9:33:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 9:32:39 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:29:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.

A lot of 20 year olds say that.

But few 20 year olds can say they don't have any interest in sex.

That doesn't stop them from adopting. Oh well...we'll see I guess.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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5/20/2015 9:36:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:59:21 PM, Daltonian wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.
What (if anything) did you have trouble coping with when you were trying to accept your sexuality? For me, it was the children thing and the concept of having an abnormal life; and the fact that people might perceive me differently or think of me as "the one gay guy in the school", rather than as "Dalton", the distinct person. Mostly the child thing, though. I'm still getting really down about that, to this day.

Mostly the reaction of others. I've actually gone out of my way to not look "gay," in that I've allowed myself to turn into a heavyset male who dresses sloppily. That still lives with me to this day, since it's hard to undo. I only occasionally reflect on my family line ending with me. It does bother me when I think about it, but not as much as having a child would. I still believe that bringing a child into this world is one of the cruelest acts a person can commit.
EndarkenedRationalist
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5/20/2015 9:37:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 9:33:56 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:32:39 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 5/20/2015 9:29:32 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 5/20/2015 6:49:40 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Surrogacy or IVF if you want to extend your line genetically. Hasn't been an issue for me, though. I don't want children.

A lot of 20 year olds say that.

But few 20 year olds can say they don't have any interest in sex.

That doesn't stop them from adopting. Oh well...we'll see I guess.

Yeah, but that still ends the family line, so it doesn't resolve the conflict in question.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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5/20/2015 9:46:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Same-sex couples may one day be able to have their own biological children.

http://abcnews.go.com...
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TruthS4yer
Posts: 55
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5/21/2015 6:18:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 5/20/2015 6:28:03 PM, Daltonian wrote:
Do you ever get depressed about the fact that, not being attracted to the opposite sex, there is a high likelihood you won't have your own children in your lifetime?
No.

I feared I'd never leave a piece of me behind in this world, or that nobody would remember of appreciate me when I was gone, because I was gay and would never have a wife or kids.
Those alive to remember us will always die eventually too. Our actions however are immortal, whether or not somebody alive happens to remember them.

As it turns out, that process was false - because adoption. Realistically, if you're someone who has a true and genuine love for children, you'd adopt one who is in need.
Yes a good point and I often find it almost hypocritical that in the same-sex adoption debate, the first things that everybody has to vocally agree on is that "the kids well-being must come first", yet when it comes to issues such as adoption versus needlessly bringing another baby in to the world... nobody mentions it. Likewise when it comes to heteros having more kids than they can care for or doing so as refugees etc.

So, my broader question is - gay people, do you want to have children?
No. There are far too many humans on this planet already and in large part as a consequence of that, it is likely to become increasingly inhospitable within the next few centuries. Humans as a whole tend to be rather self-serving and broadly inconsiderate too. There are many nice people in the world but even among many of the "nice" ones, they don't think about morality with any great sense of importance. Their niceness is merely a reflection of cultural convention directed towards the maintenance of their social prestige.
Please avoid quoting all of large posts - it needlessly means we have to scroll through them to navigate a thread.
Skepsikyma
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5/22/2015 12:46:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My gene's suck; it's my mind that matters. I've never had a problem with adoption.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
lamerde
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5/22/2015 9:54:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Excellent thread so thank you for that.

I'm not sure that gays/lesbians who want their own biological children despite there being children who need to be adopted are more morally culpable than heterosexual couples that want their own biological children. Can you talk a bit more about why you think that may be and whether it's specific to those who are gay/lesbian?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...