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Where are all the threads about whites killed

Khaos_Mage
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6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...

Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving cases where non-blacks are shot.

So, can we please, pretty please, just drop the charade? Black lives matter is not about solving the excessive force complaints by police, or even holding the police responsible more often, it is about better treatment towards blacks by police. Period.

If the movement were more honest, it very well might get more support. But, the fact that excessive force and police not being indicted is treated as a race issue, obfuscates the real issue, and creates undue friction and division.

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it? Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates
My work here is, finally, done.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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6/7/2015 2:25:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...


Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving cases where non-blacks are shot.

So, can we please, pretty please, just drop the charade? Black lives matter is not about solving the excessive force complaints by police, or even holding the police responsible more often, it is about better treatment towards blacks by police. Period.

If the movement were more honest, it very well might get more support. But, the fact that excessive force and police not being indicted is treated as a race issue, obfuscates the real issue, and creates undue friction and division.

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it?

Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates

Lol who are you to tell anyone what to do again? XD
This is the typical, what about everyone else argument am I correct?

Well you are basically saying If we only talk about group of people x, and leave out group of people y, then we are racist towards group of people y.

Okay using your logic, you could call every special interest group racist or any topic discriminatory.

Person x addresses a specific topic about human trafficking with hispanics. Person x is then by default discriminates against everyone because of not including them in his research, when the topic was about hispanics and human trafficking in the first place.

This is the same for #blacklivesmatter. There is research being done on racial profiling, sentencing disparities, and studies trying to be developed to track police killings, and race. Media coverage has been booming on this topic, as if we were in the 1960s again. The history of police and black people have always been a horrible one, and you can use the 1960s as evidence of that.

The point is, the movement is addressing one topic Black people, violence and discrimination.

It would be counterproductive to ALWAYS include EVERYONE ELSE when trying to make a point. It is just like writing an essay. You pick one topic, you cannot include everything under the sun ore you will end up writing for days.

Here is your problem, you think that simply not including them in the conversation is racist. By default, white people are included in the conversation, to comment how ever they please on the movement. You are evidence of that if you are white.

Now from this post your logic is that since the movement doesn't include white people it is racist. Using your logic one could call you racist and say, since you didn't include hispanic people, and only said white people aren't included, you are racist against hispanics.

OR

Since you are basically saying "what about white people?" in a movement whose objective is to increase commentary on discrimination and racism against black people in america and using police brutality and media coverage as an example, you would be perpetuating racism in your context because you are trying to diminish one groups' struggle and introduce another groups' problems and struggles.

I know you are now going to try to spew some statistics or even more of your logic but this is food for thought, because clearly you are confused about the movement.

I'm probably not going to respond anyways though.
briantheliberal
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6/7/2015 2:49:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...


Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving cases where non-blacks are shot.

So, can we please, pretty please, just drop the charade? Black lives matter is not about solving the excessive force complaints by police, or even holding the police responsible more often, it is about better treatment towards blacks by police. Period.

If the movement were more honest, it very well might get more support. But, the fact that excessive force and police not being indicted is treated as a race issue, obfuscates the real issue, and creates undue friction and division.

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it? Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates

Oh great, more "I'm white WHAT ABOUT ME?" posts... Nobody is stopping you from talking about it, but until whites are targeted at disproportionate rates because they are white, then you can complain about no one talking about whites being killed by cops. As far as society is concern, they are just another victim of violence and brutality, their race has little to nothing to do with their circumstances. Until then, this is nothing more than another petty distraction, another race baiting tactic used to silence anyone who dares to speak out against the unjustified killings of innocent black people at the hands of cops who almost never face consequences for their actions.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/7/2015 3:04:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 2:25:37 PM, AFism wrote:


Lol who are you to tell anyone what to do again? XD
This is the typical, what about everyone else argument am I correct?

Well you are basically saying If we only talk about group of people x, and leave out group of people y, then we are racist towards group of people y.

That's what I am told.
http://www.debate.org...

Okay using your logic, you could call every special interest group racist or any topic discriminatory.
Not my logic. Others'. Other, non-privileged persons who tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.
When I exercise my logic, and say that X is not racist, I am attacked.

Person x addresses a specific topic about human trafficking with hispanics. Person x is then by default discriminates against everyone because of not including them in his research, when the topic was about hispanics and human trafficking in the first place.

By the logic I am ridiculing, that is not even an issue, since the topic is, in fact, hispancis and trafficking. An analogous example to what I am addressing is for the person to further state that they care about ALL trafficking, and the purpose of their address is to address all trafficking, and yet, none of their evidence, research, or actions deal with non-hispanics. That is the key difference.

This is the same for #blacklivesmatter. There is research being done on racial profiling, sentencing disparities, and studies trying to be developed to track police killings, and race. Media coverage has been booming on this topic, as if we were in the 1960s again. The history of police and black people have always been a horrible one, and you can use the 1960s as evidence of that.

True, and with evidence that I have seen by other "newssources" (Huffington Post, I believe) the relationship between police and blacks, at least death-wise, is 70% better than it was in the 60s, and nearly the best its ever been.

The point is, the movement is addressing one topic Black people, violence and discrimination.
And I would be for that, if people didn't respond by saying "no, we are fighting for everyone". They are not.
Of course, to be fair, it isn't really fair to judge an entire movement based on the statements of a handful of people online, but, I don't know many people involved with the movement.

It would be counterproductive to ALWAYS include EVERYONE ELSE when trying to make a point. It is just like writing an essay. You pick one topic, you cannot include everything under the sun ore you will end up writing for days.
Again, this post is in response to the one cited.
I agree with you. Others do not.

Here is your problem, you think that simply not including them in the conversation is racist. By default, white people are included in the conversation, to comment how ever they please on the movement. You are evidence of that if you are white.

Now from this post your logic is that since the movement doesn't include white people it is racist. Using your logic one could call you racist and say, since you didn't include hispanic people, and only said white people aren't included, you are racist against hispanics.

OR

Since you are basically saying "what about white people?" in a movement whose objective is to increase commentary on discrimination and racism against black people in america and using police brutality and media coverage as an example, you would be perpetuating racism in your context because you are trying to diminish one groups' struggle and introduce another groups' problems and struggles.

Again, this is not my logic. This is logic forced onto me by others.
Namely, accusing DDO of being racist because there are no threads calling white thugs thugs, then having no threads about non-blacks being killed by the police must also be racist, in the view that only blacks are being killed, and this very contradiction is supported by those that say #blacklivesmatter is about ALL people.
The logic is the same, and that is the satire of this thread.

I know you are now going to try to spew some statistics or even more of your logic but this is food for thought, because clearly you are confused about the movement.
I am only confused by the statements made by those that claim to be a part of it.


I'm probably not going to respond anyways though.

I hope you do.
You are the only person with a level head I believe will comment on this thread.
My work here is, finally, done.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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6/7/2015 4:35:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 3:04:31 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 6/7/2015 2:25:37 PM, AFism wrote:

That's what I am told.
http://www.debate.org...

Outline specifically what post someone told you that.

Not my logic. Others'. Other, non-privileged persons who tell me that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Then I guess you made this post to try to prove some sort of point?

When I exercise my logic, and say that X is not racist, I am attacked.

Please explain.

Person x addresses a specific topic about human trafficking with hispanics. Person x is then by default discriminates against everyone because of not including them in his research, when the topic was about hispanics and human trafficking in the first place.

By the logic I am ridiculing, that is not even an issue, since the topic is, in fact, hispancis and trafficking. An analogous example to what I am addressing is for the person to further state that they care about ALL trafficking, and the purpose of their address is to address all trafficking, and yet, none of their evidence, research, or actions deal with non-hispanics. That is the key difference.

Okay, I understand what you are saying but, you do know that researching about hispanics and human trafficking and then advocating for legislation against human trafficking, in turn benefits all who is affected by human trafficking. It is like using one group of peoples who are most affected by human trafficking as an example, while simultaneously uncovering the geopolitical, social, and economical disparities of human trafficking and hispanics, especially if hispanics have a unique relationship with human trafficking.

Feminism could also be used as an example, but that is another can of beans.

True, and with evidence that I have seen by other "newssources" (Huffington Post, I believe) the relationship between police and blacks, at least death-wise, is 70% better than it was in the 60s, and nearly the best its ever been.

While that may also be true, should a special interest group or ovement settle for less than how their counterparts are being treated? Because either way there are still racial disparities, with or without the police. Also let's not forget police brutality that did not end in death..s

The point is, the movement is addressing one topic Black people, violence and discrimination.

And I would be for that, if people didn't respond by saying "no, we are fighting for everyone". They are not.

I'm glad you would be all for that. Here is where it gets tricky. By solving the disparities of race and the american judicial system, can equally benefit all who are affected by they system unfairly. Here is how:

Congress isn't going to pass a law saying if black people get shot it is racist. Congress is going to pass an anti-discriminatory act that would hypothetically by law make it unconstitutional to use excessive force on an individual regardless of gender, creed, class, or color. Now hypothetically this seems like it would help everyone. The thing is, in this society, there is still an underlying belief that black people are poor, savage, and dangerous. This belief reverberates though out popular culture and media.
So the point is to show that even if the law was past, like any anti discrimination law, you would have to prove "racist intent" which is practically impossible in our court of law, especially with the police. So the movement aimed at uncovering this ugly truth, trying to change that ugly truth, whilst advocating for said laws in the hope that they would work in the favor for black people, when in actuality, laws like that very well benefit white women, etc.

Of course, to be fair, it isn't really fair to judge an entire movement based on the statements of a handful of people online, but, I don't know many people involved with the movement.

Well here is a new view dude.


Again, this post is in response to the one cited.
I agree with you. Others do not.

Can you tell me which post exactly?


Again, this is not my logic. This is logic forced onto me by others.
Namely, accusing DDO of being racist because there are no threads calling white thugs thugs,

I think this is just a commentary on the overarching sentiment of popular culture and media being reflected online. I see where you are coming from. This is the same as saying white people aren't branded as thugs in the media, therefore the media is racist. The media itself cannot be racist, but of course news papers, writers, and in this case posters can be. I also think that post was in response to the "Why are black people so violent" thread too. Whoever made that is obviously ignorant but i digress. I still responded to that one.

then having no threads about non-blacks being killed by the police must also be racist,
in the view that only blacks are being killed, and this very contradiction is supported by those that say #blacklivesmatter is about ALL people.

Yeah I think its all about language here. #blacklivesmatter for me is about black people, advocating for social equality, and addressing political equality for all in turn. Like feminism.

The logic is the same, and that is the satire of this thread.

Lol sorry can't catch satire online....

I know you are now going to try to spew some statistics or even more of your logic but this is food for thought, because clearly you are confused about the movement.
I am only confused by the statements made by those that claim to be a part of it.


I'm probably not going to respond anyways though.

I hope you do.
You are the only person with a level head I believe will comment on this thread.

Why thank you. Now that i see this is satire, i understand where you are coming from.
It is all in the language to be honest.

People advocate for equality using themselves as an example all of the time. That is what true feminism is.

I guess the point of the the thread you linked was to show that on the internet, or on ddo, societal issues like racism are going to be reflected in the threads, and this is true. Now the fact that it is racist, i'm not so sure, I think prejudice would be more fitting. And not the site, the poster.
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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6/7/2015 4:42:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 2:49:09 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...


Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving cases where non-blacks are shot.

So, can we please, pretty please, just drop the charade? Black lives matter is not about solving the excessive force complaints by police, or even holding the police responsible more often, it is about better treatment towards blacks by police. Period.

If the movement were more honest, it very well might get more support. But, the fact that excessive force and police not being indicted is treated as a race issue, obfuscates the real issue, and creates undue friction and division.

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it? Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates

Oh great, more "I'm white WHAT ABOUT ME?" posts... Nobody is stopping you from talking about it, but until whites are targeted at disproportionate rates because they are white, then you can complain about no one talking about whites being killed by cops. As far as society is concern, they are just another victim of violence and brutality, their race has little to nothing to do with their circumstances. Until then, this is nothing more than another petty distraction, another race baiting tactic used to silence anyone who dares to speak out against the unjustified killings of innocent black people at the hands of cops who almost never face consequences for their actions.

He said this post was satirical
briantheliberal
Posts: 722
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6/7/2015 4:43:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 4:42:00 PM, AFism wrote:
At 6/7/2015 2:49:09 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...


Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving cases where non-blacks are shot.

So, can we please, pretty please, just drop the charade? Black lives matter is not about solving the excessive force complaints by police, or even holding the police responsible more often, it is about better treatment towards blacks by police. Period.

If the movement were more honest, it very well might get more support. But, the fact that excessive force and police not being indicted is treated as a race issue, obfuscates the real issue, and creates undue friction and division.

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it? Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates

Oh great, more "I'm white WHAT ABOUT ME?" posts... Nobody is stopping you from talking about it, but until whites are targeted at disproportionate rates because they are white, then you can complain about no one talking about whites being killed by cops. As far as society is concern, they are just another victim of violence and brutality, their race has little to nothing to do with their circumstances. Until then, this is nothing more than another petty distraction, another race baiting tactic used to silence anyone who dares to speak out against the unjustified killings of innocent black people at the hands of cops who almost never face consequences for their actions.

He said this post was satirical

Good because if it were serious, I would truly weep for the future of this country.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 8:10:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/7/2015 2:49:09 PM, briantheliberal wrote:
At 6/7/2015 10:15:00 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
...by cops?

https://www.youtube.com...


Is this evidence of racism by those who only talk about black deaths? It would appear so by their logic.

If those with the tag #blacklivesmatter really cared about all lives, as they say they do, this should have been a thread somewhere by these very people. It was not, which suggests their motives are racially motivated, as they care about blacks being shot by police, and not other, just as emotionally moving

Unless, of course, #blacklivesmatter is nothing more than trying to show that discrimination is real and that blacks do matter, and make improvements on that. If that is the case, and it is a laudable goal, but, then the issue isn't about caring about all lives ruined by police, is it? Pick a goal and stick to it.
#problemswithadvocates

Oh great, more "I'm white WHAT ABOUT ME?" posts... Nobody is stopping you from talking about it, but until whites are targeted at disproportionate rates because they are white, then you can complain about no one talking about whites being killed by cops. As far as society is concern, they are just another victim of violence and brutality, their race has little to nothing to do with their circumstances. Until then, this is nothing more than another petty distraction, another race baiting tactic used to silence anyone who dares to speak out against the unjustified killings of innocent black people at the hands of cops who almost never face consequences for their actions.

Dude, I hate cops. I mean I really hate cops. I've been arrested on a few occasions because I've shown to much contempt to cops. I've since matured and can treat them great while interacting with them, so I'm not one of those conservative cop worshippers.

I also agree that Khaos's thread is slightly immature. Saying black lives matter, doesn't mean the same thing as saying white lives don't. I hope you remember that if somebody starts a white people's lives matter campaign, but a lot of idiots will assume that is racist, while holding the POV that black lives matter isn't, but that is beside the point.

Now to address your premise. More black people are killed by cops, because more black people give cops a reason to kill them. Unarmed whites are killed by cops also, but they don't make the news. I'm sure nobody has their head in the sand he. Me and you both have likely seen predominantly black areas and white areas. We know that the black areas are more crime ridden.

You can blame the disproportionate amount of crime on poverty caused by racism, class warfare, or whatever, but denying the disproportionate amount of crimes is silly. This tells you that by necessity police must have more interactions with black people than white people. The more interactions provide more opportunity for things to go wrong. More opportunity for an officer to use lethal force.

There is another factor I'm leaving out, though. The white community isn't disaffected for the most part. The black community is, that could be the result of a lot of social problems, some of which you bring up on occasion. Basically what this does is make more blacks feel like the cops are the bad guys than whites, so blacks being more disaffected, thus inclined to be hostile towards police, will often times force police to move higher on the use of force continuum (Google it).

We have these two factors contributing to police being forced into situations where they must use lethal force more often. You will find all kinds of studies showing that blacks are disproportionately effected by the Justice system at every level, what you won't find is any showing that it is the result of judges or police being bias towards them. You'll find studies showing police have bias, because we all do, probably even you, without realizing it, but studies show that police are actually less likely than an average citizen in acting on that sub conscious bias.

Another concern people have is with unarmed people being shot by police. What isn't being considered is that, when fighting with the police there is always a gun in the fight. If an officer loses a fight, they have to assume they'll have their own gun used to kill them. The police can not afford to lose a fight. If a cop loses a fight they're dead. So if you start winning a fight against a cop, they're justified in shooting you.

Now you might ask, what about those people not fighting the police, who are killed while unarmed. These situations are typically the result of a felony stop. Police need to be extremely cautious at felony stops, because people don't like going to prison. People will kill a cop to avoid a prison sentence. Also suicide by cop isn't as uncommon as you might think. These are things playing into an officers head. They have to assume you're armed and ready to kill them on these felony stops. Here is another thing they have to consider. It takes less than one second to draw a weapon and shoot you, but it takes 2 seconds to respond to somebody drawing a weapon. Numerous studies have been done to prove this and I know my numbers aren't exactly perfect. What this little fact means is that cops have to shoot you, before you draw a weapon not after. If they wait for somebody to draw a gun, before drawing theirs, they'll die. It is shoot or be shot.

So knowing that, the felony stop is extremely high risk, combined with the fact that whoever draws their weapon first is the one that survives a gun fight is important. This is why officers insist on seeing your hands. If your asss itches and you must scratch it, during a felony stop, the second you motion to scratch, they'll shoot.

Unarmed doesn't mean not dangerous, and believe it or not hands up doesn't mean not dangerous either. During a felony stop, an officer will hold a gun on you with arms in view until another officer arrives to cuff you. These interactions are extremely dangerous for all involved, but unfortunately precautions must be taken.

I just saw a video of some Hispanic guy approaching a cop with his hands up, and the cop shot him when he got close. I asked a cop, why the hell would he shoot an unarmed guy with his hands up. He pointed out the fact that he was approaching the officer and a common tactic of people trying to get away is to put their hands up and look downward while slowly approaching to disarm a cop. He said the downward look, slow approach and looking down is to make himself look non threatening before making his move. I called B.S. And sure enough the guy linked me to a 1970s video of a cop approaching some unarmed black panthers, who made the same moves until they could get close enough to disarm him, and in fact the officer was disarmed and killed in the video.

Go ahead and blame racism for the disproportionate amount of police encounters or the disaffected nature of black people that will make them less compliant. That is reasonable, . However it isn't reasonable to say cops are racist jerks and killing blacks out of spite, not that it never happens, but generally speaking, the police do their job in a reasonable way. You could also blame police policy on the deaths, but the police are typically justified in these shootings, and it's not the result of racism.

Now, I know you're usually antagonistic to me, because I strawman you beliefs and troll you, , but just reread this and take it all in. I've for whatever reason educated myself on all things police related these past 3 months and these police shootings aren't a result of police racism. The things leading up to the incident may very well be a result of racism, but the shootings certainly are not.
AFism
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6/8/2015 10:28:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago

Go ahead and blame racism for the disproportionate amount of police encounters or the disaffected nature of black people that will make them less compliant.

That is a hasty generalization but I get your point. You should read my post on social conditioning, psychology and race when I make it.

That is reasonable, . However it isn't reasonable to say cops are racist jerks and killing blacks out of spite, not that it never happens, but generally speaking, the police do their job in a reasonable way.

Totally agree. This just further proves to me that it isn't the polices job to protect black people, a people that will inherently be seen as a threat due to their police training. I understand that you are saying that the police look at all civilians as suspects, but racial profiling proves that many police officers look at black civilians as targets. Also don't forget about the OFF DUTY cops who do say. I'm gonna go shoot some niggers today.

Im just saying.

You could also blame police policy on the deaths, but the police are typically justified in these shootings, and it's not the result of racism.

Yes they are only justified because the system of policing is messed up. Why is it that America accounts for a daunting percentage of held prisoners in the world? Something is being done wrong for sure.

"With only 5% of the world"s population, the U.S. has 25% of the world"s prison population " that makes us the world"s largest jailer." just google the quote and you'll find some studies. This is as of 2008 I believe.

Now, I know you're usually antagonistic to me, because I strawman you beliefs and troll you, , but just reread this and take it all in. I've for whatever reason educated myself on all things police related these past 3 months and these police shootings aren't a result of police racism. The things leading up to the incident may very well be a result of racism, but the shootings certainly are not.

In some cases yes. And by default the acts of the shooting isn't "racist". But to separate the actual shooting and all of the events leading up to the shooting is kind of illogical. In court cases lawyers do not separate the shooting and what happened minutes and seconds before the shooting, the case is judged as a whole and the person "in the wrong" is either deemed guilty or not guilty This is the same thinking that normal individuals do when judging what they see on social media etc.

In all you raise some fair points, but to me the judicial system, the police system, and how police officers are trained are not designed to protect black people especially. Police patrols originated from slave patrols, and that just further proves that since the beginning this judicial system was not made for black people, this country was not made for black people, etc.

There has been so much legislation to integrate black people into this society, and even to this day laws are being past to further integrate black people into this society as full citizens (hello anti discrimination laws). It is clear that America failed black people by trying to reform something that wasn't made for them in the first place. Our founding fathers made that very clear, even though some of them abolished slavery.

Nice research though, I see that you grasp that police situations aren't always black and white (literally) and you are acknowledging the nuance. You are closer to proving yourself wrong (aren't you the one that is arguing nature vs. nurture and black people, with testosterone levels and etc.?)

It is good that you are being open minded about these issues, but just remember too that reading studies, books and etc. on policing only gives you the police perspective, obviously, even if you have been accosted by the police.

I'll be happy to give you the other side of the story.

And if you do more research of the geopollitics of black neighborhoods in america and start making correlations between foods and diseases, policies and landfills/factory plants/ waste dumping/ supermarkets you'll see that everything starts to become interconnected into one broad term that is coined as "systemic racism"

Start here:

http://www.coopercenter.org...

You will be surprised at what you find.

http://law.jrank.org...
Wylted
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6/8/2015 11:04:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 10:28:10 AM, AFism wrote:

Go ahead and blame racism for the disproportionate amount of police encounters or the disaffected nature of black people that will make them less compliant.

That is a hasty generalization but I get your point. You should read my post on social conditioning, psychology and race when I make it.

Yes, I will. Are you saying that the black community isn't more disaffected than other portions of society?

That is reasonable, . However it isn't reasonable to say cops are racist jerks and killing blacks out of spite, not that it never happens, but generally speaking, the police do their job in a reasonable way.

Totally agree. This just further proves to me that it isn't the polices job to protect black people, a people that will inherently be seen as a threat due to their police training. I understand that you are saying that the police look at all civilians as suspects, but racial profiling proves that many police officers look at black civilians as targets. Also don't forget about the OFF DUTY cops who do say. I'm gonna go shoot some niggers today.

Im just saying.

Cops also tend to be more cynical and have less of a filter than non cops on their days off. I suspect you're referring to a specific incidence there and if so, I'd like to see some elaboration on it. I've seen racial profiling as a real problem in a few police stations, but it's the vast minority. Rough neighborhoods are more policed than more well off areas and for more reason. I'll go into police tactics in a while to explain why sometimes it seems like police are racially profiling when they aren't. I can tell you that police have to use different tactics in high crime areas than low crime areas, but those tactics are applied evenly to different races. As a matter of fact you're more likely to get harassed by the police as a white person in a black area than visa versa, and with good reason.

You could also blame police policy on the deaths, but the police are typically justified in these shootings, and it's not the result of racism.

Yes they are only justified because the system of policing is messed up. Why is it that America accounts for a daunting percentage of held prisoners in the world? Something is being done wrong for sure.

It's not the cops. It has several problems, one being the war on drugs. It's not the police's fault that there is a war on drugs. However, they do need to take out certain street level dealers, as the quality of life is reduced for local residents by these street dealers. I agree the prison level is bad, that's absolutely not the fault of the police. It's a political issue. I also have a problem with the fact that it seems poor people are coerced to plead guilty in many circumstances, because they can't afford bail, and it's the only way to be released. I wouldn't doubt that the coerced guilty pleas play a part in the sentencing decisions of judges for another crime down the road.

"With only 5% of the world"s population, the U.S. has 25% of the world"s prison population " that makes us the world"s largest jailer." just google the quote and you'll find some studies. This is as of 2008 I believe.

We are the largest, and we also jail as many people as North Korea per capita. So I am aware of these stats. I just did a ten page report, drawing from 30 different sources all concerning the "prison industrial complex".

Now, I know you're usually antagonistic to me, because I strawman you beliefs and troll you, , but just reread this and take it all in. I've for whatever reason educated myself on all things police related these past 3 months and these police shootings aren't a result of police racism. The things leading up to the incident may very well be a result of racism, but the shootings certainly are not.

In some cases yes. And by default the acts of the shooting isn't "racist". But to separate the actual shooting and all of the events leading up to the shooting is kind of illogical. In court cases lawyers do not separate the shooting and what happened minutes and seconds before the shooting, the case is judged as a whole and the person "in the wrong" is either deemed guilty or not guilty This is the same thinking that normal individuals do when judging what they see on social media etc.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about minutes or seconds leading up to the incident. I'm referring to the life events that helped influence the individuals criminal behavior.


In all you raise some fair points, but to me the judicial system, the police system, and how police officers are trained are not designed to protect black people especially. Police patrols originated from slave patrols, and that just further proves that since the beginning this judicial system was not made for black people, this country was not made for black people, etc.

I don't have a response to this point.

There has been so much legislation to integrate black people into this society, and even to this day laws are being past to further integrate black people into this society as full citizens (hello anti discrimination laws). It is clear that America failed black people by trying to reform something that wasn't made for them in the first place. Our founding fathers made that very clear, even though some of them abolished slavery.

I think a lot of people miss that. Black people are being forced to fit into white society by yuppies, and they never stop to think that, maybe just maybe, they don't want to fit into white society. The yuppies never stop to consider that black folks just may not want to be darker skinned white people. So I agree with you there, but rarely if ever see the point you raised brought up, outside of anarchists debating amongst themselves on the subject.

Nice research though, I see that you grasp that police situations aren't always black and white (literally) and you are acknowledging the nuance. You are closer to proving yourself wrong (aren't you the one that is arguing nature vs. nurture and black people, with testosterone levels and etc.?)

I brought it up. Things are a mix of nature vs nurture. Being more inclined towards aggression isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think it's why people will try to deny it, when you show evidence that testosterone effects aggressiveness. We do ourselves no favors by denying the truth, though. Aggressiveness can be funneled for positive things. Though you see it used in negative ways in the black community, you also see it used in positive ways. The reason you see so many black people on top of the music industry, sports, and in the entrepreneurial world is probably largely due to the extremely competitive drive that an increased testosterone level gives you.

Again to say nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. It is both nature and nurture, and both can be used as advantages or disadvantages, though it's easier to see the negative than positive, when it's what people focus on.

It is good that you are being open minded about these issues, but just remember too that reading studies, books and etc. on policing only gives you the police perspective.

My hatred for them was so severe, that I needed to solely focus on that.

I'll be happy to give you the other side of the story.

And if you do more research of the geopollitics of black neighborhoods in america and start making correlations between foods and diseases, policies and landfills/factory plants/ waste dumping/ supermarkets you'll see that everything starts to become interconnected into one broad term that is coined as "systemic racism"

Start here:

http://www.coopercenter.org...

You will be surprised at what you find.


http://law.jrank.org...
Greyparrot
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6/8/2015 2:09:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:10:23 AM, Wylted wrote:

Dude, I hate cops. I mean I really hate cops. I've been arrested on a few occasions because I've shown to much contempt to cops. I've since matured and can treat them great while interacting with them, so I'm not one of those conservative cop worshippers.

I also agree that Khaos's thread is slightly immature. Saying black lives matter, doesn't mean the same thing as saying white lives don't. I hope you remember that if somebody starts a white people's lives matter campaign, but a lot of idiots will assume that is racist, while holding the POV that black lives matter isn't, but that is beside the point.

Now to address your premise. More black people are killed by cops, because more black people give cops a reason to kill them. Unarmed whites are killed by cops also, but they don't make the news. I'm sure nobody has their head in the sand he. Me and you both have likely seen predominantly black areas and white areas. We know that the black areas are more crime ridden.

You can blame the disproportionate amount of crime on poverty caused by racism, class warfare, or whatever, but denying the disproportionate amount of crimes is silly. This tells you that by necessity police must have more interactions with black people than white people. The more interactions provide more opportunity for things to go wrong. More opportunity for an officer to use lethal force.

There is another factor I'm leaving out, though. The white community isn't disaffected for the most part. The black community is, that could be the result of a lot of social problems, some of which you bring up on occasion. Basically what this does is make more blacks feel like the cops are the bad guys than whites, so blacks being more disaffected, thus inclined to be hostile towards police, will often times force police to move higher on the use of force continuum (Google it).

We have these two factors contributing to police being forced into situations where they must use lethal force more often. You will find all kinds of studies showing that blacks are disproportionately effected by the Justice system at every level, what you won't find is any showing that it is the result of judges or police being bias towards them. You'll find studies showing police have bias, because we all do, probably even you, without realizing it, but studies show that police are actually less likely than an average citizen in acting on that sub conscious bias.

Another concern people have is with unarmed people being shot by police. What isn't being considered is that, when fighting with the police there is always a gun in the fight. If an officer loses a fight, they have to assume they'll have their own gun used to kill them. The police can not afford to lose a fight. If a cop loses a fight they're dead. So if you start winning a fight against a cop, they're justified in shooting you.

Now you might ask, what about those people not fighting the police, who are killed while unarmed. These situations are typically the result of a felony stop. Police need to be extremely cautious at felony stops, because people don't like going to prison. People will kill a cop to avoid a prison sentence. Also suicide by cop isn't as uncommon as you might think. These are things playing into an officers head. They have to assume you're armed and ready to kill them on these felony stops. Here is another thing they have to consider. It takes less than one second to draw a weapon and shoot you, but it takes 2 seconds to respond to somebody drawing a weapon. Numerous studies have been done to prove this and I know my numbers aren't exactly perfect. What this little fact means is that cops have to shoot you, before you draw a weapon not after. If they wait for somebody to draw a gun, before drawing theirs, they'll die. It is shoot or be shot.

So knowing that, the felony stop is extremely high risk, combined with the fact that whoever draws their weapon first is the one that survives a gun fight is important. This is why officers insist on seeing your hands. If your asss itches and you must scratch it, during a felony stop, the second you motion to scratch, they'll shoot.

Unarmed doesn't mean not dangerous, and believe it or not hands up doesn't mean not dangerous either. During a felony stop, an officer will hold a gun on you with arms in view until another officer arrives to cuff you. These interactions are extremely dangerous for all involved, but unfortunately precautions must be taken.

I just saw a video of some Hispanic guy approaching a cop with his hands up, and the cop shot him when he got close. I asked a cop, why the hell would he shoot an unarmed guy with his hands up. He pointed out the fact that he was approaching the officer and a common tactic of people trying to get away is to put their hands up and look downward while slowly approaching to disarm a cop. He said the downward look, slow approach and looking down is to make himself look non threatening before making his move. I called B.S. And sure enough the guy linked me to a 1970s video of a cop approaching some unarmed black panthers, who made the same moves until they could get close enough to disarm him, and in fact the officer was disarmed and killed in the video.

Go ahead and blame racism for the disproportionate amount of police encounters or the disaffected nature of black people that will make them less compliant. That is reasonable, . However it isn't reasonable to say cops are racist jerks and killing blacks out of spite, not that it never happens, but generally speaking, the police do their job in a reasonable way. You could also blame police policy on the deaths, but the police are typically justified in these shootings, and it's not the result of racism.

Now, I know you're usually antagonistic to me, because I strawman you beliefs and troll you, , but just reread this and take it all in. I've for whatever reason educated myself on all things police related these past 3 months and these police shootings aren't a result of police racism. The things leading up to the incident may very well be a result of racism, but the shootings certainly are not.

Jesus! You are a walking copcyclopedia!
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/8/2015 6:22:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 2:09:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:10:23 AM, Wylted wrote:

Dude, I hate cops. I mean I really hate cops. I've been arrested on a few occasions because I've shown to much contempt to cops. I've since matured and can treat them great while interacting with them, so I'm not one of those conservative cop worshippers.

I also agree that Khaos's thread is slightly immature. Saying black lives matter, doesn't mean the same thing as saying white lives don't. I hope you remember that if somebody starts a white people's lives matter campaign, but a lot of idiots will assume that is racist, while holding the POV that black lives matter isn't, but that is beside the point.

Now to address your premise. More black people are killed by cops, because more black people give cops a reason to kill them. Unarmed whites are killed by cops also, but they don't make the news. I'm sure nobody has their head in the sand he. Me and you both have likely seen predominantly black areas and white areas. We know that the black areas are more crime ridden.

You can blame the disproportionate amount of crime on poverty caused by racism, class warfare, or whatever, but denying the disproportionate amount of crimes is silly. This tells you that by necessity police must have more interactions with black people than white people. The more interactions provide more opportunity for things to go wrong. More opportunity for an officer to use lethal force.

There is another factor I'm leaving out, though. The white community isn't disaffected for the most part. The black community is, that could be the result of a lot of social problems, some of which you bring up on occasion. Basically what this does is make more blacks feel like the cops are the bad guys than whites, so blacks being more disaffected, thus inclined to be hostile towards police, will often times force police to move higher on the use of force continuum (Google it).

We have these two factors contributing to police being forced into situations where they must use lethal force more often. You will find all kinds of studies showing that blacks are disproportionately effected by the Justice system at every level, what you won't find is any showing that it is the result of judges or police being bias towards them. You'll find studies showing police have bias, because we all do, probably even you, without realizing it, but studies show that police are actually less likely than an average citizen in acting on that sub conscious bias.

Another concern people have is with unarmed people being shot by police. What isn't being considered is that, when fighting with the police there is always a gun in the fight. If an officer loses a fight, they have to assume they'll have their own gun used to kill them. The police can not afford to lose a fight. If a cop loses a fight they're dead. So if you start winning a fight against a cop, they're justified in shooting you.

Now you might ask, what about those people not fighting the police, who are killed while unarmed. These situations are typically the result of a felony stop. Police need to be extremely cautious at felony stops, because people don't like going to prison. People will kill a cop to avoid a prison sentence. Also suicide by cop isn't as uncommon as you might think. These are things playing into an officers head. They have to assume you're armed and ready to kill them on these felony stops. Here is another thing they have to consider. It takes less than one second to draw a weapon and shoot you, but it takes 2 seconds to respond to somebody drawing a weapon. Numerous studies have been done to prove this and I know my numbers aren't exactly perfect. What this little fact means is that cops have to shoot you, before you draw a weapon not after. If they wait for somebody to draw a gun, before drawing theirs, they'll die. It is shoot or be shot.

So knowing that, the felony stop is extremely high risk, combined with the fact that whoever draws their weapon first is the one that survives a gun fight is important. This is why officers insist on seeing your hands. If your asss itches and you must scratch it, during a felony stop, the second you motion to scratch, they'll shoot.

Unarmed doesn't mean not dangerous, and believe it or not hands up doesn't mean not dangerous either. During a felony stop, an officer will hold a gun on you with arms in view until another officer arrives to cuff you. These interactions are extremely dangerous for all involved, but unfortunately precautions must be taken.

I just saw a video of some Hispanic guy approaching a cop with his hands up, and the cop shot him when he got close. I asked a cop, why the hell would he shoot an unarmed guy with his hands up. He pointed out the fact that he was approaching the officer and a common tactic of people trying to get away is to put their hands up and look downward while slowly approaching to disarm a cop. He said the downward look, slow approach and looking down is to make himself look non threatening before making his move. I called B.S. And sure enough the guy linked me to a 1970s video of a cop approaching some unarmed black panthers, who made the same moves until they could get close enough to disarm him, and in fact the officer was disarmed and killed in the video.

Go ahead and blame racism for the disproportionate amount of police encounters or the disaffected nature of black people that will make them less compliant. That is reasonable, . However it isn't reasonable to say cops are racist jerks and killing blacks out of spite, not that it never happens, but generally speaking, the police do their job in a reasonable way. You could also blame police policy on the deaths, but the police are typically justified in these shootings, and it's not the result of racism.

Now, I know you're usually antagonistic to me, because I strawman you beliefs and troll you, , but just reread this and take it all in. I've for whatever reason educated myself on all things police related these past 3 months and these police shootings aren't a result of police racism. The things leading up to the incident may very well be a result of racism, but the shootings certainly are not.

Jesus! You are a walking copcyclopedia!

This is true now.
AFism
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6/8/2015 6:35:24 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
That is a hasty generalization but I get your point. You should read my post on social conditioning, psychology and race when I make it.

Yes, I will. Are you saying that the black community isn't more disaffected than other portions of society?

I wouldn't use just that adjective, as I feel it is insufficient to describe feelings of the black community with one word.



Totally agree. This just further proves to me that it isn't the polices job to protect black people, a people that will inherently be seen as a threat due to their police training. I understand that you are saying that the police look at all civilians as suspects, but racial profiling proves that many police officers look at black civilians as targets. Also don't forget about the OFF DUTY cops who do say. I'm gonna go shoot some niggers today.

Im just saying.

Cops also tend to be more cynical and have less of a filter than non cops on their days off. I suspect you're referring to a specific incidence there and if so, I'd like to see some elaboration on it.

Oh there are multiple incidents, I'll be sure to post them soon. I'm writing on these topics for school, so I figured that I would just post those.

I've seen racial profiling as a real problem in a few police stations, but it's the vast minority. Rough neighborhoods are more policed than more well off areas and for more reason.

I feel that there is a correlation between this and race, there are ways to prove it but it will take a long forum post rather than a debate.

I'll go into police tactics in a while to explain why sometimes it seems like police are racially profiling when they aren't. I can tell you that police have to use different tactics in high crime areas than low crime areas, but those tactics are applied evenly to different races.

While the tactics may be applied evenly in theory, in praxis this may not be the case because the judicial system and police system isn't built for the protection of black people in the first place.

As a matter of fact you're more likely to get harassed by the police as a white person in a black area than vice versa, and with good reason.

I rarely see this happen. I have heard multiple accounts of the flip side though, being harassed by private security etc.


: It's not the cops. It has several problems, one being the war on drugs. It's not the police's fault that there is a war on drugs.

Right it is the system itself.

However, they do need to take out certain street level dealers, as the quality of life is reduced for local residents by these street dealers. I agree the prison level is bad, that's absolutely not the fault of the police. It's a political issue. I also have a problem with the fact that it seems poor people are coerced to plead guilty in many circumstances, because they can't afford bail, and it's the only way to be released. I wouldn't doubt that the coerced guilty pleas play a part in the sentencing decisions of judges for another crime down the road.


We are the largest, and we also jail as many people as North Korea per capita. So I am aware of these stats. I just did a ten page report, drawing from 30 different sources all concerning the "prison industrial complex".

Glad you are. Have you made any correlations with race, because thats a big one there.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about minutes or seconds leading up to the incident. I'm referring to the life events that helped influence the individuals criminal behavior.

I see your point there, but what about the countless innocent black children who were murdered in cold blood? I would say it was a combination of both racism and life situation/racism especially when there are countless examples of white children and adults aggressing the police, and not being brutally betten or gunned down.


In all you raise some fair points, but to me the judicial system, the police system, and how police officers are trained are not designed to protect black people especially. Police patrols originated from slave patrols, and that just further proves that since the beginning this judicial system was not made for black people, this country was not made for black people, etc.

I don't have a response to this point.

Why is that. Do you not feel that it is true? If you do read the history books, it will tell you, even colleges teach this.

There has been so much legislation to integrate black people into this society, and even to this day laws are being past to further integrate black people into this society as full citizens (hello anti discrimination laws). It is clear that America failed black people by trying to reform something that wasn't made for them in the first place. Our founding fathers made that very clear, even though some of them abolished slavery.

I think a lot of people miss that. Black people are being forced to fit into white society by yuppies,

Hit it on the nail.....

and they never stop to think that, maybe just maybe, they don't want to fit into white society. The yuppies never stop to consider that black folks just may not want to be darker skinned white people. So I agree with you there, but rarely if ever see the point you raised brought up, outside of anarchists debating amongst themselves on the subject.

Well I think that full societal reform is necessary to be honest.


I brought it up. Things are a mix of nature vs nurture. Being more inclined towards aggression isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think it's why people will try to deny it, when you show evidence that testosterone effects aggressiveness.

Ah, I will adress this for now, and say the research that links melanin and testosterone levels is actually inconclusive, because everyone has melanin, just different types. Testosterone/estrogen levels differ based on heredity, diet, etc. Especially when GMOS come into the mix.

We do ourselves no favors by denying the truth, though. Aggressiveness can be funneled for positive things. Though you see it used in negative ways in the black community, you also see it used in positive ways. The reason you see so many black people on top of the music industry, sports, and in the entrepreneurial world is probably largely due to the extremely competitive drive that an increased testosterone level gives you.

Sure. I just want you to know that this correlation isn't just for black people, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Again to say nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. It is both nature and nurture, and both can be used as advantages or disadvantages, though it's easier to see the negative than positive, when it's what people focus on.

I guess I mixed you up with Zarroette. Seemed like she fully argued nature. I do understand your sentiment and like I said make a separate post.

It is good that you are being open minded about these issues, but just remember too that reading studies, books and etc. on policing only gives you the police perspective.

My hatred for them was so severe, that I needed to solely focus on that.

Well, You are good, because I have put a mental block on it for now. I can not even deal with it.

Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:13:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:35:24 PM, AFism wrote:

I wouldn't use just that adjective, as I feel it is insufficient to describe feelings of the black community with one word.

Nobody is trying to.

Totally agree. This just further proves to me that it isn't the polices job to protect black people, a people that will inherently be seen as a threat due to their police training. I understand that you are saying that the police look at all civilians as suspects, but racial profiling proves that many police officers look at black civilians as targets. Also don't forget about the OFF DUTY cops who do say. I'm gonna go shoot some niggers today.

Im just saying.

Cops also tend to be more cynical and have less of a filter than non cops on their days off. I suspect you're referring to a specific incidence there and if so, I'd like to see some elaboration on it.

Oh there are multiple incidents, I'll be sure to post them soon. I'm writing on these topics for school, so I figured that I would just post those.

I've seen racial profiling as a real problem in a few police stations, but it's the vast minority. Rough neighborhoods are more policed than more well off areas and for more reason.

I feel that there is a correlation between this and race, there are ways to prove it but it will take a long forum post rather than a debate.

I rarely see this happen. I have heard multiple accounts of t

I'm sure. We've all heard many stories, private security isn't well trained and are typically idiots. So that wouldn't surprise me. The stories could be fabricated, or mistaken. Some of them could also be true. Stories you hear from others aren't a good way to analyze data.

Glad you are. Have you made any correlations with race, because thats a big one there.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about minutes or seconds leading up to the incident. I'm referring to the life events that helped influence the individuals criminal behavior.

I see your point there, but what about the countless innocent black children who were murdered in cold blood? I would say it was a combination of both racism and life situation/racism especially when there are countless examples of white children and adults aggressing the police, and not being brutally betten or gunned down.

This seems to just be coming from media reports, it's not true. I follow some police accountability pages and more unarmed whites are killed or beat by police than blacks. The media outlets focus on case of white officers and black civilians to stir up racial tension. There are countless examples of numerous whites and blacks aggressing the police and not being killed, there are numerous examples of unarmed whites and blacks being killed by the police, and most of these situations are justified. A few are not.


In all you raise some fair points, but to me the judicial system, the police system, and how police officers are trained are not designed to protect black people especially. Police patrols originated from slave patrols, and that just further proves that since the beginning this judicial system was not made for black people, this country was not made for black people, etc.

I don't have a response to this point.

Why is that. Do you not feel that it is true? If you do read the history books, it will tell you, even colleges teach this.

It seems irrelevant to what we're discussing. The origons of modern policing is wrong. The modern police aren't descended from slave patrols, though slave patrols existed, and even if it were it's not relevant. Police policies are applied equally to everyone. Disproportionate numbers are a result of disproportionate amount of criminal elements in society.


There has been so much legislation to integrate black people into this society, and even to this day laws are being past to further integrate black people into this society as full citizens (hello anti discrimination laws). It is clear that America failed black people by trying to reform something that wasn't made for them in the first place. Our founding fathers made that very clear, even though some of them abolished slavery.

Hit it on the nail.....

and they never stop to think that, maybe just maybe, they don't want to fit into white society. The yuppies never stop to consider that black folks just may not want to be darker skinned white people. So I agree with you there, but rarely if ever see the point you raised brought up, outside of anarchists debating amongst themselves on the subject.

Well I think that full societal reform is necessary to be honest.


I brought it up. Things are a mix of nature vs nurture. Being more inclined towards aggression isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think it's why people will try to deny it, when you show evidence that testosterone effects aggressiveness.

Ah, I will adress this for now, and say the research that links melanin and testosterone levels is actually inconclusive, because everyone has melanin, just different types. Testosterone/estrogen levels differ based on heredity, diet, etc. Especially when GMOS come into the mix.

There is a direct correlation though. The people in prison have an average higher testosterone than the people outside of prison, certainly that means something.


We do ourselves no favors by denying the truth, though. Aggressiveness can be funneled for positive things. Though you see it used in negative ways in the black community, you also see it used in positive ways. The reason you see so many black people on top of the music industry, sports, and in the entrepreneurial world is probably largely due to the extremely competitive drive that an increased testosterone level gives you.

Sure. I just want you to know that this correlation isn't just for black people, and I'm pretty sure you know that.

Yes obviously. I think everyone is aware of that when discussing testosterone levels or melanin.

Again to say nature vs nurture is a false dichotomy. It is both nature and nurture, and both can be used as advantages or disadvantages, though it's easier to see the negative than positive, when it's what people focus on.

I guess I mixed you up with Zarroette. Seemed like she fully argued nature. I do understand your sentiment and like I said make a separate post.

Okay, I'm sure you did mix us up, because I usually try to talk about social impacts as opposed to genetics.

It is good that you are being open minded about these issues, but just remember too that reading studies, books and etc. on policing only gives you the police perspective.

My hatred for them was so severe, that I needed to solely focus on that.

Well, You are good, because I have put a mental block on it for now. I can not even deal with it.



If you have high blood pressure it's probably for the best, lol.
AFism
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6/9/2015 10:26:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:13:57 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/8/2015 6:35:24 PM, AFism wrote:

I wouldn't use just that adjective, as I feel it is insufficient to describe feelings of the black community with one word.


Nobody is trying to.

Totally agree. This just further proves to me that it isn't the polices job to protect black people, a people that will inherently be seen as a threat due to their police training. I understand that you are saying that the police look at all civilians as suspects, but racial profiling proves that many police officers look at black civilians as targets. Also don't forget about the OFF DUTY cops who do say. I'm gonna go shoot some niggers today.

Im just saying.

Cops also tend to be more cynical and have less of a filter than non cops on their days off. I suspect you're referring to a specific incidence there and if so, I'd like to see some elaboration on it.

Oh there are multiple incidents, I'll be sure to post them soon. I'm writing on these topics for school, so I figured that I would just post those.

I've seen racial profiling as a real problem in a few police stations, but it's the vast minority. Rough neighborhoods are more policed than more well off areas and for more reason.

I feel that there is a correlation between this and race, there are ways to prove it but it will take a long forum post rather than a debate.

I rarely see this happen. I have heard multiple accounts of t

I'm sure. We've all heard many stories, private security isn't well trained and are typically idiots. So that wouldn't surprise me. The stories could be fabricated, or mistaken. Some of them could also be true. Stories you hear from others aren't a good way to analyze data.

These are stories that have been published and first hand experiences.

Glad you are. Have you made any correlations with race, because thats a big one there.

You misunderstand me. I'm not talking about minutes or seconds leading up to the incident. I'm referring to the life events that helped influence the individuals criminal behavior.

I see your point there, but what about the countless innocent black children who were murdered in cold blood? I would say it was a combination of both racism and life situation/racism especially when there are countless examples of white children and adults aggressing the police, and not being brutally betten or gunned down.

This seems to just be coming from media reports, it's not true.

Unfortunately police departments do not record casualties based on race, but I will be sure to give you some statistics if I can. There is obviously a higher incidence, for this to happen since there is a direct correlation between crime, and black communities.

I follow some police accountability pages and more unarmed whites are killed or beat by police than blacks.

Evidence please because statistics from the BJS show otherwise.

The media outlets focus on case of white officers and black civilians to stir up racial tension. There are countless examples of numerous whites and blacks aggressing the police and not being killed, there are numerous examples of unarmed whites and blacks being killed by the police, and most of these situations are justified. A few are not.

I'll get in to social engineering later, but when I bring it up, it'll probably explain all of your points that you are trying to make. I won't deny that media coverage isn't a tactic, but I will say that it is not a coincidence that all of these cases are happening, and it isn't out of the blue.


In all you raise some fair points, but to me the judicial system, the police system, and how police officers are trained are not designed to protect black people especially. Police patrols originated from slave patrols, and that just further proves that since the beginning this judicial system was not made for black people, this country was not made for black people, etc.

I don't have a response to this point.

Why is that. Do you not feel that it is true? If you do read the history books, it will tell you, even colleges teach this.

It seems irrelevant to what we're discussing. The origons of modern policing is wrong. The modern police aren't descended from slave patrols, though slave patrols existed, and even if it were it's not relevant.

This isn't true, it is a well known fact and the research has already been done. And it is very much relevant, because this thinking still reverberates throughout our society. Our society was built upon these ideals and systems of policing and "justice".

Police policies are applied equally to everyone.

It is obvious that it isn't. Look at the sentencing disparities, and please don't forget about racial profiling. It still happens, so to say this isn't true.

Disproportionate numbers are a result of disproportionate amount of criminal elements in society.

This is a faulty causality and isn't always the case. You are now slowly going back to thinking in binaries. Multiple reasons account for this correlation, and you are jumping to the one that is the most logical to you. Yes this may be a factor, but once you delve into the social engineering argument, and geopolitics of the situation, more links surface.


Hit it on the nail.....

and they never stop to think that, maybe just maybe, they don't want to fit into white society. The yuppies never stop to consider that black folks just may not want to be darker skinned white people. So I agree with you there, but rarely if ever see the point you raised brought up, outside of anarchists debating amongst themselves on the subject.

Well I think that full societal reform is necessary to be honest.


I brought it up. Things are a mix of nature vs nurture. Being more inclined towards aggression isn't necessarily a bad thing, and I think it's why people will try to deny it, when you show evidence that testosterone effects aggressiveness.

Ah, I will adress this for now, and say the research that links melanin and testosterone levels is actually inconclusive, because everyone has melanin, just different types. Testosterone/estrogen levels differ based on heredity, diet, etc. Especially when GMOS come into the mix.

There is a direct correlation though. The people in prison have an average higher testosterone than the people outside of prison, certainly that means something.

And what does that have to do with race? You would have to make a stretch to connect that.


Yes obviously. I think everyone is aware of that when discussing testosterone levels or melanin.

Not everyone, Mainly people want to connect black people to the equation only because they are ignorant enough to assume white people have no melanin.

I guess I mixed you up with Zarroette. Seemed like she fully argued nature. I do understand your sentiment and like I said make a separate post.

Okay, I'm sure you did mix us up, because I usually try to talk about social impacts as opposed to genetics.

It is good that you are being open minded about these issues, but just remember too that reading studies, books and etc. on policing only gives you the police perspective.

My hatred for them was so severe, that I needed to solely focus on that.

Well, You are good, because I have put a mental block on it for now. I can not even deal with it.



If you have high blood pressure it's probably for the best, lol.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/9/2015 11:00:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Too much text to go through. There are more whites killed by police than blacks. Though no reliable statistics exist, because race isn't reported in these police related deaths, we do know that most likely more whites are killed by police, and there are watchdog organizations that try to keep track the best they can of these police related killings.

http://www.washingtontimes.com...

Now there is a disproportionate number of blacks killed by police, but I've already admitted that and explained why.

As far as the testosterone is concerned, certain populations have higher testosterone levels than others.

If I say construction workers on average have higher testosterone levels than office workers, this is true. If I say prisoners have more testosterone on average than non prisoners it is true, and if I say blacks have more testosterone on average than whites this is also true.

There are probably more correlations as well. Like I'm sure Dallas Cowboys fans have lower testosterone levels on average than Carolina Panthers fans, because Fvck Cowboys fans, that's why. So one correlation being true, doesn't make another correlation untrue.

There are some interesting theories on testosterone levels as way. For example some indication exists that testosterone level is partially a result of hereditary factors, but in certain circumstances the body may start pumping out more testosterone. I honestly wouldn't be surprised by a study that showed people with lower testosterone out of prison going to prison, and having their level raise after being there a while. (No such study exists).

Again, there are other rebuttals to the testosterone argument, there is absolutely no reason to put our heads in the sand and say it doesn't exist, just because the conclusions hurt our feelings.

The differences in sentencing for blacks and whites are easily explained. When we account for prior records. When priors are accounted for the differences in sentencing are 100% explained. The only disparities that exist in sentencing are between males and females and that's accounting for all factors. I think people just hear disparity in sentencing and they misdiagnose the reasons for this. Don't respond to this post until My next post, because I was reading this book by a Harvard sociologist professor and I think he helps to identify the biggest cause of the discrepancy in prison rates among blacks and whites, and it explains the sentencing disparities also, but hopefully I don't have to spell out why. Anyway, please refrain from responding until my next post. I want to take a photo of a chart he uses to explain the concept.

Keep in mind when reading the chart that rookie cops love getting high arrest totals, and typically they don't care where they get them from.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/9/2015 11:58:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'll show you the photo of the chart from the book and credit the author. I can't upload it now because of a slow connection, which makes me want to blow my fvcking brains out.

It's this type of crap that makes me actually start believing the arguments I'm making against Lannan in our debate.
lamerde
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6/9/2015 5:47:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Blacklivesmatter activists never made the claim that black lives matter than other people's lives. The point is, people already care about other people's lives, and have historically not cared about black lives.

All this "but but alllivesmatter" crying is equivalent to showing up at an event for juvenile diabetes to protest "what about people with cancer?" It's possible to focus on the lives of blacks that are consistently and repeatedly undervalued in society without bringing up the fact that police sometimes use excessive force with everyone.

Studies have already proven that police are more quick to use excessive force against blacks, in addition to being more likely to use force against innocent blacks than innocent whites. Studies have already proven that people in general have unconscious biases toward black people based on negative stereotypes.

If you want to advocate against police brutality, then do so. But white people aren't interested in protesting police brutality - they are interested in undermining the purpose of blacklivesmatter. Where were you 5 years ago if police brutality is such a problem for you? Oh, that's right...
Why I ignore YYW:
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Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
AFism
Posts: 1,030
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6/10/2015 10:17:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 11:58:36 AM, Wylted wrote:
I'll show you the photo of the chart from the book and credit the author. I can't upload it now because of a slow connection, which makes me want to blow my fvcking brains out.

It's this type of crap that makes me actually start believing the arguments I'm making against Lannan in our debate.

I see. You should read lameredes post though
Wylted
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6/10/2015 12:02:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/10/2015 10:17:38 AM, AFism wrote:
At 6/9/2015 11:58:36 AM, Wylted wrote:
I'll show you the photo of the chart from the book and credit the author. I can't upload it now because of a slow connection, which makes me want to blow my fvcking brains out.

It's this type of crap that makes me actually start believing the arguments I'm making against Lannan in our debate.

I see. You should read lameredes post though

I've read it. He is wrong in the paragraph that starts with "studies show", but the other paragraphs seem sensible enough.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/10/2015 1:11:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:47:50 PM, lamerde wrote:
Blacklivesmatter activists never made the claim that black lives matter than other people's lives. The point is, people already care about other people's lives, and have historically not cared about black lives.


All this "but but alllivesmatter" crying is equivalent to showing up at an event for juvenile diabetes to protest "what about people with cancer?" It's possible to focus on the lives of blacks that are consistently and repeatedly undervalued in society without bringing up the fact that police sometimes use excessive force with everyone.


Studies have already proven that police are more quick to use excessive force against blacks, in addition to being more likely to use force against innocent blacks than innocent whites. Studies have already proven that people in general have unconscious biases toward black people based on negative stereotypes.

If you want to advocate against police brutality, then do so. But white people aren't interested in protesting police brutality - they are interested in undermining the purpose of blacklivesmatter. Where were you 5 years ago if police brutality is such a problem for you? Oh, that's right...

LOL
This whole thread went over your head, as expected.
Hypocrisy and racism, as expected, from you.

I wouldn't expect someone like you to understand anything as complex as satire, irony, or intellectual integrity. So, continue building your straw men and feel better about yourself. After all, as you suggested in your thread about white thugs, the silence on the matter speaks volumes. And nothing is more silent than not responding to what is actually said by the speaker when you criticize with animosity while hiding behind your anonymity.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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6/10/2015 1:32:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:47:50 PM, lamerde wrote:
Where were you 5 years ago if police brutality is such a problem for you? Oh, that's right...

Oh, and five years ago I was speaking out against changing the seatbelt law from a secondary offense to a primary offense, since this new reason to pull people over is an easy excuse for racial discrimination, which could lead to more brutality.

But, sure, I am sure you know me and my history and thoughts...
So, feel free to tell me where I was five years ago.
My work here is, finally, done.
lamerde
Posts: 1,416
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6/10/2015 2:56:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
lol Khaos. Read a book.
Why I ignore YYW:
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Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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6/13/2015 2:26:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Where are all the threads about whites killed

The public education system has taught white kids to loath themselves, their own race and to be ashamed of even being alive for what happened 250 years ago. Pretty obvious to me.
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%