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Ask me anything about policing

Wylted
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6/8/2015 8:20:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've spent the last three months reading several books about policing. I've probably dug into 100 different peer reviewed studies that effect police procedures. I've trolled a ton of police forums and facebook pages, pressing every single button I could find to get into their heads. I now know every important thing about policing. I want to put this knowledge to good use by answering your questions.

Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything).

If you want to know about bodie cams, what police think of them or if or how they are effective or ineffective, just ask.

The only way you'll ask something that will trip me up, is if you try to trip me up, otherwise we're good to go.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 1:07:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Good to go?

You made a mistake, amigo. Saying you can justify all of this.

Begin with this. List the videos in your response and justify each one.

Begin with the first, which shows a guy getting beat down while on his knees.

https://www.youtube.com...

I will be awaiting you responses.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 1:09:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also...how can you call yourself a Libertarian and yet be in favor of a Police State?

You DO realize that true Libertarians are in favor on only the bare minimal size of Law Enforcement? And they have high regard for human rights? And freedom (liberty--duh) from Oppression?

Or maybe you don't. And erroneously equate with being a libertarian with being a Fascist?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Fly
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6/8/2015 1:15:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As a police officer, one has to balance the danger of assuming no threat exists when one does exist vs. assuming a threat exists when one does not.

How does police training manage this balance, and is one danger (as stated above) emphasized more than the other?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Wylted
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6/8/2015 6:53:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 1:07:08 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Good to go?

Yep


You made a mistake, amigo. Saying you can justify all of this.

I never said I can justify everything. What I can do is explain individual policies to help you diagnose a situation. The first video, after reading limited information, but unfortunately none from James Mandarino, but some from his supervisors, I've come to a conclusion on the video.

The officer was a little amped up after watching the Mr. Bell driving extremely recklessly. He ordered Bell to the ground on his belly and Bell was only getting down on his palms and knees. The officer needs to get him on his belly, but Bell is refusing to flatten himself on the ground. The hits with the baton are meant to gain compliance. The original couple of hits with the baton are justified, but he should have laid off of them a bit and shouted commands to get down again, before launching into the baton hits again.

The officer went overboard, but some of the baton hits were justified. The officer in that situation, was convicted on charges of battery. In this case the officer was slightly out of line, and justifiably was convicted of a crime.

However sometimes people don't know what they're looking at on video, so I'm sure some of the supposed "police brutality" videos can be justified by simply explaining policy and exactly what the officer is trying to do.


Begin with this. List the videos in your response and justify each one.


Begin with the first, which shows a guy getting beat down while on his knees.

https://www.youtube.com...

I will be awaiting you responses.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 6:57:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Man...you didn't last very long in your thread before getting jobbed, didja? LOL.

And then you lie. You DID say you could justify everything.

These are your OP words....

"Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything)."


So....let's move on to some more of those videos, shall we? Unless you admit you cannot do it. Then fine.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 6:59:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ya see...you are speaking to a former victim of police brutality. (I ended-up getting the cop fired, in Austin, TX. Back in 2008. Or rather, my Dad's attorney did.)

So I aim to run your thread here into the ground.

Video #2 please?

Ya messed up, bro.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 7:00:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also what is the extent of your experience in actual on-the-street police work? In dealing first-hand with perpetrators and offenders?

Did you ever even do a ride along? When? Where?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/8/2015 7:02:35 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here's another video for you to "explain anything you want in that you think is polic brutality" as you claimed in your OP...........

https://www.youtube.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:19:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 1:09:41 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Also...how can you call yourself a Libertarian and yet be in favor of a Police State?

You DO realize that true Libertarians are in favor on only the bare minimal size of Law Enforcement? And they have high regard for human rights? And freedom (liberty--duh) from Oppression?

Or maybe you don't. And erroneously equate with being a libertarian with being a Fascist?

Stop being silly. Having a thorough understanding of policing and policy is not an indication of political alignment. I'm for a night watchman type state. I'd like to see privatized police forces instead of public ones. I think I have a pretty balanced view of police and the fact is, when talking about policing, I'll likely annoy people of all political factions, because the truth doesn't line up well with the dogmas in each belief system or any cookie cutter belief system for that matter.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:30:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 1:15:56 PM, Fly wrote:
As a police officer, one has to balance the danger of assuming no threat exists when one does exist vs. assuming a threat exists when one does not.

How does police training manage this balance, and is one danger (as stated above) emphasized more than the other?

Good cops always assume a threat exists in every situation. Any stop for even the most minor violation could turn deadly. The cops intent may be merely to slow a guy down, but the individual they're pulling over could be on the run for a murder they committed last week and not want to go to prison.

There are different levels of caution. During a normal stop or interaction police will assume a command presence, and insist on seeing the hands. A 1993 study was done by the FBI to analyze when and why police would be targeted for assault or murder and the study found that the officers who lacked what they call command presence were more likely to be killed or attacked than ones that had command presence.

What command presence is, can be described as extreme confidence as well as how they give orders. An officer that approaches a car and says "may I please see your license and registration" is more likely to be attacked than one that approaches and sharply barks out "license and registration"!. Cops are fully aware of stories about a few different serial killers being caught by routine traffic stops and particularly the Oklahoma City bomber being caught for a minor violation.

During felony stops, their is a higher level of awareness. Officers will stop a car, demand to see hands and draw a gun on the suspect until back up arrives to provide cover and slap the cuffs on.

I know I provided some information you weren't looking for, but the answer to your question is that good officers, always assume you're a threat to them.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:34:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:57:18 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Man...you didn't last very long in your thread before getting jobbed, didja? LOL.

And then you lie. You DID say you could justify everything.

These are your OP words....

"Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything)."


Well I explained it. The initial hits were to gain compliance the rest were because the cop was a jerk. Explaining things and justifying them are different things. Please link me individually to videos instead of linking me to a montage of them. When looking through a montage, I have to google the names, watch the full original video (which sometimes is enough), and then seek statements from those present, including the civilian and the officer.

So please link me to a single video, not a montage, and I'll help break it down.

So....let's move on to some more of those videos, shall we? Unless you admit you cannot do it. Then fine.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:35:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 6:59:18 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Ya see...you are speaking to a former victim of police brutality. (I ended-up getting the cop fired, in Austin, TX. Back in 2008. Or rather, my Dad's attorney did.)

So I aim to run your thread here into the ground.

Video #2 please?


Ya messed up, bro.

Okay link me to video number 2. Not doing the montage thing.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:37:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:00:57 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Also what is the extent of your experience in actual on-the-street police work? In dealing first-hand with perpetrators and offenders?

Did you ever even do a ride along? When? Where?

I can't do a ride along. I have a warrant for my arrest. How I gained my knowledge is in the op, and I believe myself to have a pretty balanced and informed view.
Wylted
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6/8/2015 7:50:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:02:35 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
Here's another video for you to "explain anything you want in that you think is polic brutality" as you claimed in your OP...........

https://www.youtube.com...

The man is refusing to comply with the officers, flailing his arms and legs. The police are trying to gain compliance by hitting himation the baton, and unlike the first video they hit back up and request compliance and hit again. The guy despit knowing everytime he refuses to go to his stomach, he'll be hit still refuses to comply.

I'm not sure how any reasonable person would look at that video and think thatMs police brutality.

The initial throw down was to avoid getting injured by the defendant from back kicking or anything like that. It's a common police tactic to avoid injury while dealing with an individual resisting arrest. They first try to physically cuff the guy, but he isn't being over powered, so now they have to make hits with the baton to gain compliance.

It's incredibly hard to cuff somebody who doesn't want to be cuffed and the means to gain compliance can be brutal at times. It's why it's better just to take your battle to the court instead of battling the cops on the street.
Fly
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6/8/2015 7:57:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:30:52 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/8/2015 1:15:56 PM, Fly wrote:
As a police officer, one has to balance the danger of assuming no threat exists when one does exist vs. assuming a threat exists when one does not.

How does police training manage this balance, and is one danger (as stated above) emphasized more than the other?

Good cops always assume a threat exists in every situation. Any stop for even the most minor violation could turn deadly. The cops intent may be merely to slow a guy down, but the individual they're pulling over could be on the run for a murder they committed last week and not want to go to prison.

There are different levels of caution. During a normal stop or interaction police will assume a command presence, and insist on seeing the hands. A 1993 study was done by the FBI to analyze when and why police would be targeted for assault or murder and the study found that the officers who lacked what they call command presence were more likely to be killed or attacked than ones that had command presence.

What command presence is, can be described as extreme confidence as well as how they give orders. An officer that approaches a car and says "may I please see your license and registration" is more likely to be attacked than one that approaches and sharply barks out "license and registration"!. Cops are fully aware of stories about a few different serial killers being caught by routine traffic stops and particularly the Oklahoma City bomber being caught for a minor violation.

During felony stops, their is a higher level of awareness. Officers will stop a car, demand to see hands and draw a gun on the suspect until back up arrives to provide cover and slap the cuffs on.

I know I provided some information you weren't looking for, but the answer to your question is that good officers, always assume you're a threat to them.

Interesting-- some of that I knew already, and some I did not. The reason why I ask is that I have seen police training videos showing footage of actual officers getting caught by surprise when they assumed a threat did not exist.

However, there have been situations where a threat did not exist, and the police have treated them as if they were threatening-- with all too often tragic results.

I can't remember where I saw it or why, but I remember a situational training film of a young adult not responding to police commands and pulling something from his pants. It was his wallet with a card certifying that he is deaf.

So, yeah, I am left wondering how police training balances danger towards police and danger towards innocent citizens FROM the police.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Wylted
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6/8/2015 8:12:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 7:57:28 PM, Fly wrote:
At 6/8/2015 7:30:52 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/8/2015 1:15:56 PM, Fly wrote:
As a police officer, one has to balance the danger of assuming no threat exists when one does exist vs. assuming a threat exists when one does not.

How does police training manage this balance, and is one danger (as stated above) emphasized more than the other?

Good cops always assume a threat exists in every situation. Any stop for even the most minor violation could turn deadly. The cops intent may be merely to slow a guy down, but the individual they're pulling over could be on the run for a murder they committed last week and not want to go to prison.

There are different levels of caution. During a normal stop or interaction police will assume a command presence, and insist on seeing the hands. A 1993 study was done by the FBI to analyze when and why police would be targeted for assault or murder and the study found that the officers who lacked what they call command presence were more likely to be killed or attacked than ones that had command presence.

What command presence is, can be described as extreme confidence as well as how they give orders. An officer that approaches a car and says "may I please see your license and registration" is more likely to be attacked than one that approaches and sharply barks out "license and registration"!. Cops are fully aware of stories about a few different serial killers being caught by routine traffic stops and particularly the Oklahoma City bomber being caught for a minor violation.

During felony stops, their is a higher level of awareness. Officers will stop a car, demand to see hands and draw a gun on the suspect until back up arrives to provide cover and slap the cuffs on.

I know I provided some information you weren't looking for, but the answer to your question is that good officers, always assume you're a threat to them.

Interesting-- some of that I knew already, and some I did not. The reason why I ask is that I have seen police training videos showing footage of actual officers getting caught by surprise when they assumed a threat did not exist.

However, there have been situations where a threat did not exist, and the police have treated them as if they were threatening-- with all too often tragic results.

I can't remember where I saw it or why, but I remember a situational training film of a young adult not responding to police commands and pulling something from his pants. It was his wallet with a card certifying that he is deaf.

So, yeah, I am left wondering how police training balances danger towards police and danger towards innocent citizens FROM the police.

Sometimes there is no right answer. If the guy is reaching for his wallet, it's a fatal mistake on both parts. I'm not sure that these tragic mistakes are avoidable. The police think they're dealing with a threat and see somebody reach for their wallet than they have to shoot. The time it takes to pull a gun and shoot somebody is close to one second. The time it takes to respond is 2 seconds.

My guess is that the deaf guy already had a gun drawn on him in a tense situation. If the cops gun was holstered I'd doubt that would happen. My guess is you're referring to a felony stop, where cops are extra alert and feeling threatened.

My guess is legalizing all drugs would reduce these types of interactions and reduce the number of mistakes made by police, but for god's sake citizens need to make smart decisions as well. If a gun is drawn on you, don't make any sudden movements and keep your hands in plain sight. It doesn't even matter who has the gun drawn on you, comply, keep your hands visible, and make no sudden movements.
Vox_Veritas
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6/8/2015 8:17:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:20:02 AM, Wylted wrote:
I've spent the last three months reading several books about policing. I've probably dug into 100 different peer reviewed studies that effect police procedures. I've trolled a ton of police forums and facebook pages, pressing every single button I could find to get into their heads. I now know every important thing about policing. I want to put this knowledge to good use by answering your questions.

Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything).

If you want to know about bodie cams, what police think of them or if or how they are effective or ineffective, just ask.

The only way you'll ask something that will trip me up, is if you try to trip me up, otherwise we're good to go.

1. What do police spend most of their workdays doing?
2. What's the average salary of a cop in the United States?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Wylted
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6/8/2015 8:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:17:02 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:20:02 AM, Wylted wrote:
I've spent the last three months reading several books about policing. I've probably dug into 100 different peer reviewed studies that effect police procedures. I've trolled a ton of police forums and facebook pages, pressing every single button I could find to get into their heads. I now know every important thing about policing. I want to put this knowledge to good use by answering your questions.

Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything).

If you want to know about bodie cams, what police think of them or if or how they are effective or ineffective, just ask.

The only way you'll ask something that will trip me up, is if you try to trip me up, otherwise we're good to go.

1. What do police spend most of their workdays doing?

In big cities, responding to calls half of which they know are BS before they arrive. Unfortunately very little proactive policing can be done. They typically show up to a corner where calls are coming in about drug related things going on, so they cop has to show up and make the crowd disperse, and then jump to the next call to do the same thing. Basically we call and they jump. I'd like to see more discretion used by dispatchers responding to 9-11 calls to allow for a more proactive approach to policing.

In small cites, they do the same, but can be slightly more proactive, writing up tickets, spending more time on calls to get to the bottom of things etc.

2. What's the average salary of a cop in the United States?

I believe it's close to $40,000 a year but can vary widely. Some cities pay their cops crap, like $30,000 a year and others will pay them $65,000 a year. Cops do control their own salary to an extent. If they make more arrests, they can get massive amounts of overtime with court appearances, but typically only rookies make a ton of arrests. A rookie may make 30 arrests a month in a larger city, while a veteran will keep it below 5 a month.
Dilara
Posts: 661
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6/8/2015 10:03:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
You troll police pages and forums? Why? Did you have any evidence that the individuals you were bothering had done anything wrong? Most police are good People.
What's the hardest part of being a cop?
What do they make of the black lives matter movement?
Are they more paranoid to make a wrong move in fear of riots?
What's the best part of the job?
skyfish
Posts: 38
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6/9/2015 1:23:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:20:02 AM, Wylted wrote:
Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything).

ok, you've probably seen the video by now.

wtf was wrong with that cop who threw a 14yro girl down on to the pavement?

what justification did he have to draw his weapon

why was HE the one in charge, when he's clearly out of control?
visualize whirled peas
skyfish
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6/9/2015 1:27:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 8:25:59 PM, Wylted wrote:
Unfortunately very little proactive policing can be done. They typically show up to a corner where calls are coming in about drug related things going on...

then why don't we give them a break and let cops just ignore "drug related things going on...."

why is it anyone's business what drugs a person wants to use?
visualize whirled peas
Wylted
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6/9/2015 1:42:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 1:23:54 AM, skyfish wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:20:02 AM, Wylted wrote:
Show me videos where you may be confused about why the police acted a certain way and I'll explain it (police brutality or anything).

ok, you've probably seen the video by now.

Yep

wtf was wrong with that cop who threw a 14yro girl down on to the pavement?

They have to gain compliance. He asked her to lay face down and she refused so he had to get physical in order for her to comply. One of the crowd members got close and he felt threatened. Being outnumbered in such a hostile crowd, is dangerous.

I don't see how he gets her to comply with his commands to lay face down on her belly unless he gets physical. He probably didn't need to draw his gun. Are you sure that was his gun, or was it a tazer?

what justification did he have to draw his weapon

why was HE the one in charge, when he's clearly out of control?

He seems a bit over zealous. It is impossible to control that large of an amount of people and get them all laying face down, so he can call for back up and have them all arrested or questioned. It's not against policy to be over zealous though.

If you're right about a gun being pulled out, he'll likely lose his job, unless he spins some BS story about mistaking it for a tazer. If it was his tazer, he'll just get paid time off and then go back to work.

The slam of the girl was the reccomended course of action though. First you ask them to lay face down. If they say no, you use a take down move (often referred to by the media as slamming down. As long as she refuse to comply, he must get physical to get her to comply.
Wylted
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6/9/2015 1:47:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 1:27:13 AM, skyfish wrote:
At 6/8/2015 8:25:59 PM, Wylted wrote:
Unfortunately very little proactive policing can be done. They typically show up to a corner where calls are coming in about drug related things going on...

then why don't we give them a break and let cops just ignore "drug related things going on...."

why is it anyone's business what drugs a person wants to use?

I think all drugs should be legal as well, but when made illegal a thing that was harmless before is now being marketed and sold by people who are not harmless. Clearing a corner is also called removing a hotspot and studies have shown that hitting these corners up, usually has the effect of also reducing violent crime in the area. Typically clearing a corner doesn't involve arrest. A lot of times cops pull up, give a little siren beep and people take off running, so it serves the purpose of clearing the corner, without making the officer take on any extra paper work or get hands on with anyone.
Wylted
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6/9/2015 1:49:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 1:28:09 AM, Garbanza wrote:
Why are so many policemen fat?

I think sitting in a car all day and mostly eating fast food will do that.
Wylted
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6/9/2015 1:56:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/8/2015 10:03:07 PM, Dilara wrote:
You troll police pages and forums? Why? Did you have any evidence that the individuals you were bothering had done anything wrong? Most police are good People.

I don't care if they're good people. In order to get into their head, I wanted to see every possible emotional state.

What's the hardest part of being a cop?

Later, I'll respond to this. I'll post you an article from a cops own words but it varies.

What do they make of the black lives matter movement?

They think it's meant to villianize police. There is a big misunderstanding of how police operate and it effects public perception when hearing of some of these cases. They also think that, many people would prefer they be killed by a criminal who is a threat to them than visa versa. They don't want to see people die generally speaking, but they think it's unfair to villainize them when ultimately they were in a no win situation had to make a choice. They have their own reactionary movement called "blue lives matter"

Are they more paranoid to make a wrong move in fear of riots?

I'm sure it concerns them to a certain extent, but most good cops know caring too much about that and letting it effect their decisions in the line of duty could prove fatal to themselves.

What's the best part of the job?

They seem to like when people randomly show their appreciation for them. The massive amount of hate they get all day hurts their morale, but an appreciative citizen seems to warm their heart. The answer will be different for all of them, though.
Mremann87
Posts: 4
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6/9/2015 5:22:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'd like to know what's a "good" cop...

What attitudes?

What behaviors?

What highest values?

What priorities?

What psych traits?

Etc
Wylted
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6/9/2015 10:19:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 5:22:36 AM, Mremann87 wrote:
I'd like to know what's a "good" cop...

What attitudes?

They've found that it's better to have what's been called a command presence after a 1993 FBI study of attacks on police. Those with command presence are less likely to be attacked and also more likely to have their commands quickly followed. Command presence is hard to explain but a confident attitude, no concern for being nice, only getting their point across as quickly as possible.

They also usually become cynical quite quickly and develop some sociopathic tendencies over time to shield themselves from the emotional trauma the job causes.

What behaviors?

Generic question, but see above.

What highest values?

What priorities?

What psych traits?

Etc

I'm a firm believer that people in the same job can have wildly different styles and be effective and good officers. Some things are a must, though. Strong physical courage, and basically anything associated with not being a pvssy.

One thing I think that separates a good cop from an average or bad cop is what I call moral courage. It can be hard to do the right thing sometimes when you'll be reprimanded from superiors or peers
skyfish
Posts: 38
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6/9/2015 10:54:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/9/2015 1:42:36 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 6/9/2015 1:23:54 AM, skyfish wrote:
wtf was wrong with that cop who threw a 14yro girl down on to the pavement?

They have to gain compliance. He asked her to lay face down and she refused so he had to get physical in order for her to comply. One of the crowd members got close and he felt threatened. Being outnumbered in such a hostile crowd, is dangerous.

Right off the bat i have to challenge you to explain WHY he needed to "gain compliance"?

There was no crime going on. These were KIDS in their SWIMMING outfits being shooshed out of a party because a white lady felt there were too many black kids there.

The "compliance" needed to be on the lady making a big deal out of too many kids in the pool.

This did not even to need involve law enforcement. If the lady can't manage her own pool party, then she should have hired a bouncer.

I don't see how he gets her to comply with his commands to lay face down on her belly unless he gets physical. He probably didn't need to draw his gun. Are you sure that was his gun, or was it a tazer?

i don't see how he needs to get her to do ANYTHING!

it was a public place and she was not violating any laws.

the cop was INCAPABLE of dealing with a simple situation and he does not deserve to be ANYWHERE NEAR a badge... let alone a gun

and yes, it was a gun.

He seems a bit over zealous.....It's not against policy to be over zealous though.

THAT'S what needs to change, right there.

THAT is the problem

THAT is what makes ppl ANGRY.

If you're right about a gun being pulled out, he'll likely lose his job, unless he spins some BS story about mistaking it for a tazer. If it was his tazer, he'll just get paid time off and then go back to work.

are you kidding me?

IF he's tries to make a case that he mistook his gun for a tazer.... then NOW we have criminal negligence and he should end up in prison.

holy cow.

The slam of the girl was the reccomended course of action though.

no... no its not. not any more.

and this case is going to ensure that it never will be again.
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