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Transracial vs. Transgender

Bennett91
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6/14/2015 5:02:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At this point I can't think of a reason transracialism shouldn't be considered equal with transgenderism. They both have striking parallels and I think that any argument used to debunk trans-race can be used to debunk transgender.

Can anyone give me an argument that refutes one w/o killing the other?
lamerde
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6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.
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Greyparrot
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6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.
Df0512
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6/14/2015 6:39:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 5:02:02 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At this point I can't think of a reason transracialism shouldn't be considered equal with transgenderism. They both have striking parallels and I think that any argument used to debunk trans-race can be used to debunk transgender.

Can anyone give me an argument that refutes one w/o killing the other?

Transracial. Arguably one of the most dumbest concepts I've heard of. I think it's sad we live in a world were people think being black or white is "cool". We focus so much on skin color that people are actually starting to believe theirs is the wrong color. Just exactly how does one feel as if they should be black? How do you become more black? Just color your skin and perm your hair? Ridiculous
Greyparrot
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6/14/2015 6:56:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 6:11:26 PM, Mirza wrote:
Transabled: http://www.christianexaminer.com...

It's only a disorder if it keeps themselves and others from happiness. Pretty sure society can deal with most of the nonconformists, 1st world problems and all.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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6/14/2015 8:52:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 5:02:02 PM, Bennett91 wrote:
At this point I can't think of a reason transracialism shouldn't be considered equal with transgenderism. They both have striking parallels and I think that any argument used to debunk trans-race can be used to debunk transgender.

Can anyone give me an argument that refutes one w/o killing the other?

By no longer self-identifying with your race, you show lack of respect towards the ancestors who started your race, which is immoral.

BTW, I can't believe you changed your avatar to that o_0 You're the same person I saw refuting religious posts, arguing against pornography being harmful to society and voting against polygamy, right?
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Hoppi
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6/14/2015 10:39:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Exactly. What he said ^. Denying your race means a separation from your whole family, but changing gender doesn't.
Bennett91
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6/15/2015 1:25:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

Ah the feelings argument. Same can be said for gender/sex as well. Our understanding of it as a functional is a societal construct just like race. What does a woman "feel" to confirm she is a woman?


The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

But why not? There are already other true transracial people.
Bennett91
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6/15/2015 1:26:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well yea man that's my drift. Groovy!
Bennett91
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6/15/2015 1:28:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 10:39:13 PM, Hoppi wrote:
Exactly. What he said ^. Denying your race means a separation from your whole family, but changing gender doesn't.

It can at times, trans ppl are often made homeless, kicked out by conservative parents. And the family and work of the NAACP lady seem to accept her so ...
slo1
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6/15/2015 8:04:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm not surprised at this discussion and the amount of expressed betrayal when someone changes their culture for another.

If I were to move to China for the rest of my life would it not be generally considered good if I took up and embraced that culture even to the point of straightening my hair and dying it black. Isn't that what we mean when we in the States say about the melting pot, assimilation is good? People in the States generally would be more happy if Muslims immigrants dressed western.

Change the context to change culture to something that does not match my environment. Instead of assimilating into western culture, let me be western and take up Muslim culture. I grow a beard, wear the garb. Even most people would understand that transition if I did it because of religious believe.

Remove that context and I'm just doing it because I like it, now I am down right evil in many eyes.

Three examples of a significant cultural change the only thing that really changed was my context as to why I made such changes.

I think humans overall hold up such value on notions of who they are, fear kicks in when they get in situations that are in opposition to those internal labels we give ourselves. Just think how you would feel walking around in clothing that was "not you". I think that level of unconscious scrutiny is challenged when we someone who doesn't appear to have the same value system, such as valuing my race and it brings disgust.

I don't have any issues with someone crossing racial lines, just like I have no problem with someone who makes themselves look like a cat. I however do feel that people who want to change race are just as beholden to putting labels on their own self worth and that is why the are compelled to change.

I do have to admit when I see India and many things Indian, I feel a level of comfort. If I believed in past lives I would definitely be from there in the past.
lamerde
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6/15/2015 1:05:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/15/2015 1:25:25 AM, Bennett91 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

Ah the feelings argument. Same can be said for gender/sex as well. Our understanding of it as a functional is a societal construct just like race. What does a woman "feel" to confirm she is a woman?

This is related to my point below - about society forcing people's gender expressions to be consistent with their sex. Maybe it doesn't mean anything to "feel" like you're a woman (I don't know) but society will surely correct you if you look like a man.

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

But why not? There are already other true transracial people.

Who are you talking about with the bolded part? Are you asking why we don't force people to act like their race? What does that even mean?
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DollarStoreSushi
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6/15/2015 3:20:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
But why not? There are already other true transracial people.

Who are you talking about with the bolded part? Are you asking why we don't force people to act like their race? What does that even mean?

Ive been interested in this whole thread, but this stood out to me... What does it mean to be transracial? I don't think it is a perfect comparison to people who identify as transgendered because, whether social or not, there are more rigid differences between gender than race. But identity is a complicated thing. Especially when you consider the identity we have for ourselves vs our perceived identity by others. Whether that identity is connected to our race, our gender, our sexuality, our abilities, or whatever else, it's always interesting to think about who (or what) has the ultimate control over an individuals identity.

People are kind of acting like this is the only example of a person presenting themselves as another race. There is a history of people who pass as other races. But the more known examples are of non white people passing as white, and not the other way around. Its still interesting to think about the reasons some people historically might have wanted to pass as white and to compare that to why a person today might want to pass as non white. And how does society as a whole view non whites attempting to pass as white vs whites attempting to pass as non white - is there something more taboo about a white person doing this?

I'm also curious about how mixed people fall into the transracial identity.

I'm multiracial, my dad was mixed but my mom isn't and is of an all together different race. I look a lot more like my mom, as in I have the typical racial identifiers that line up with her race. And I'm usually assumed to be of that race by other people.

So for people who are mixed but may not have easily identifiable features that point to all their backgrounds like me, would they fall under some kind of transracial category?

I've also known mixed people who don't identify with all of their backgrounds. To be specific, I know a person who is Nigerian and Thai. He looks much more like a black person than an asian person, but he personally identifies as Thai because he grew up surrounded by Thai relatives and has little connection to Nigerian culture or his Nigerian relatives. He and his family are aware he's mixed, but when asked what his background is, he says Thai.

Would the disconnect between a person's perceived race, their own self identity, and their actual ethnic backgrounds place them in a transracial category?
lamerde
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6/15/2015 8:38:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
These are a few philosophers' takes on the situation: http://dailynous.com...

At 6/15/2015 3:20:12 PM, DollarStoreSushi wrote:
Who are you talking about with the bolded part? Are you asking why we don't force people to act like their race? What does that even mean?

Ive been interested in this whole thread, but this stood out to me... What does it mean to be transracial? I don't think it is a perfect comparison to people who identify as transgendered because, whether social or not, there are more rigid differences between gender than race. But identity is a complicated thing. Especially when you consider the identity we have for ourselves vs our perceived identity by others. Whether that identity is connected to our race, our gender, our sexuality, our abilities, or whatever else, it's always interesting to think about who (or what) has the ultimate control over an individuals identity.

People are kind of acting like this is the only example of a person presenting themselves as another race. There is a history of people who pass as other races. But the more known examples are of non white people passing as white, and not the other way around. Its still interesting to think about the reasons some people historically might have wanted to pass as white and to compare that to why a person today might want to pass as non white. And how does society as a whole view non whites attempting to pass as white vs whites attempting to pass as non white - is there something more taboo about a white person doing this?

"Passing" for survival/upward mobility is not the same as a Black person believing themselves to be white. The issue here is not that Rachel is "passing" for Black - it's that she believes she is.

I'm also curious about how mixed people fall into the transracial identity.

I'm multiracial, my dad was mixed but my mom isn't and is of an all together different race. I look a lot more like my mom, as in I have the typical racial identifiers that line up with her race. And I'm usually assumed to be of that race by other people.

So for people who are mixed but may not have easily identifiable features that point to all their backgrounds like me, would they fall under some kind of transracial category?

I've also known mixed people who don't identify with all of their backgrounds. To be specific, I know a person who is Nigerian and Thai. He looks much more like a black person than an asian person, but he personally identifies as Thai because he grew up surrounded by Thai relatives and has little connection to Nigerian culture or his Nigerian relatives. He and his family are aware he's mixed, but when asked what his background is, he says Thai.

Would the disconnect between a person's perceived race, their own self identity, and their actual ethnic backgrounds place them in a transracial category?

Well if you have one parent who is Black and one parent who is White, and you claim to be Asian, that's a different story than claiming to be either Black or White. This woman has no ancestral history to speak of to back up her claim. Most people can see that Whites who claim 1/16th Cherokee are appropriative, yet when a fully White woman claims Black people are taking this seriously. It boggles my mind.
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DollarStoreSushi
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6/15/2015 10:02:46 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
"Passing" for survival/upward mobility is not the same as a Black person believing themselves to be white. The issue here is not that Rachel is "passing" for Black - it's that she believes she is.

Yeah, you call out an important difference - of passing for a reason vs believing oneself to be of another race. Is that really what is going on with this woman though? Does she honestly believe herself to be black? It seems that if she is telling her black siblings not to blow her cover and she is avoiding answering whether or not she is african american, then it seems that she is not under some belief that she truly is black. It seems to me that she has some strong connection to a black american identity/experience but is aware of her white background, and wanted for some reason to pass herself as black.

Well if you have one parent who is Black and one parent who is White, and you claim to be Asian, that's a different story than claiming to be either Black or White. This woman has no ancestral history to speak of to back up her claim. Most people can see that Whites who claim 1/16th Cherokee are appropriative, yet when a fully White woman claims Black people are taking this seriously. It boggles my mind.

I agree that this whole thing is a bit mind boggling, for sure. Also, I was mostly responding to the question as to what true "transracial" people are, more than responding to the specifics of this woman's case. I think you hit what is the difference in this case between transracial vs transgender, but I do think it brings up interesting questions about identity in general.

Going with the broader question of what does it mean to be "really" transracial, my racial makeup is that I have a father who is black/hispanic and a mother who is asian. I look mostly asian. But if I were to identitfy myself as part black, despite not having typically physical traits associated with being black, would that make me transracial? As in I am transgressing race by both my actual racial makeup and my appearance? Are all mixed people the "real" transracial people?

I dont have an answer, thats why Im posing these questions.

The specifics of this woman's case are strange and I can see where they are problematic. But does transracial have a broader definition than a person who wants/passes/or believes themselves to be another race? Just like how a man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man's body is not the same as a person who is born as a hermaphrodite. Are both transgender?

To me the most interesting question isn't whether or not she believed she was black. It comes down to our right to identify as we want vs our actual ethnic background vs the social power of our perceived identities.

Im not sure I'd really consider Rachel Dolezal as transracial as much I'd say she was just trying to pass. And I don't think in this case its fair to draw a parallel between her and say Caitlyn Jenner.
lamerde
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6/15/2015 10:29:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/15/2015 10:02:46 PM, DollarStoreSushi wrote:

Yeah, you call out an important difference - of passing for a reason vs believing oneself to be of another race. Is that really what is going on with this woman though? Does she honestly believe herself to be black? It seems that if she is telling her black siblings not to blow her cover and she is avoiding answering whether or not she is african american, then it seems that she is not under some belief that she truly is black. It seems to me that she has some strong connection to a black american identity/experience but is aware of her white background, and wanted for some reason to pass herself as black.

Based on what I've seen of her interviews, she "considers" herself Black. I agree that this is an issue of identity - and I think this is separate from passing. Of course, no one can know what's going on in her mind or why she's saying the things she's saying. But it doesn't seem like she's acknowledging the fact that she's White. She's claiming she is Black.

I agree that this whole thing is a bit mind boggling, for sure. Also, I was mostly responding to the question as to what true "transracial" people are, more than responding to the specifics of this woman's case. I think you hit what is the difference in this case between transracial vs transgender, but I do think it brings up interesting questions about identity in general.

Going with the broader question of what does it mean to be "really" transracial, my racial makeup is that I have a father who is black/hispanic and a mother who is asian. I look mostly asian. But if I were to identitfy myself as part black, despite not having typically physical traits associated with being black, would that make me transracial? As in I am transgressing race by both my actual racial makeup and my appearance? Are all mixed people the "real" transracial people?

I dont have an answer, thats why Im posing these questions.

I'm really not sure how people are defining transracial then. May I ask if you are American? I feel like Americans have a very different concept of race in general (e.g., "the one drop rule"). Like... had no one told me this girl was supposed to be Black, I never would have thought she was in the first place.

There are places in the world where we don't force people to have 'either-or' identities. If you have one Black parent and one Asian parent, you aren't simply Black or Asian, you are both Black and Asian. Same for biracial Black/White. It's only in talking with Americans that I see people having to choose one identity or another, so that's something I don't quite understand.

The specifics of this woman's case are strange and I can see where they are problematic. But does transracial have a broader definition than a person who wants/passes/or believes themselves to be another race? Just like how a man who believes he is a woman trapped in a man's body is not the same as a person who is born as a hermaphrodite. Are both transgender?

That's an interesting comparison. I don't think a person born with both male and female parts is considered transgendered, but I could be wrong. I've seen it referred to as intersex, but I'm not sure if that's an identity. Maybe someone else can shed some light on that.

To me the most interesting question isn't whether or not she believed she was black. It comes down to our right to identify as we want vs our actual ethnic background vs the social power of our perceived identities.

Yeah, I agree with that. I tried very hard to ignore this story (I think it's ridiculous) but I'm seeing it more and more on my social media and it does raise some interesting philosophical questions. People are trying to make it a mental illness thing but I agree with you that there's a larger conversation to be had here.

Im not sure I'd really consider Rachel Dolezal as transracial as much I'd say she was just trying to pass. And I don't think in this case its fair to draw a parallel between her and say Caitlyn Jenner.

I'm unclear - do you think it's an identity issue or not? If so, how is it different from Caitlyn Jenner?
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DollarStoreSushi
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6/16/2015 10:30:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Based on what I've seen of her interviews, she "considers" herself Black. I agree that this is an issue of identity - and I think this is separate from passing. Of course, no one can know what's going on in her mind or why she's saying the things she's saying. But it doesn't seem like she's acknowledging the fact that she's White. She's claiming she is Black.

I did see somewhere today she said she does identify as black. I'm in no position to act like I know her and her identity any better than she does. And if that is what she says, then yes, this is something separate from just passing.

I'm really not sure how people are defining transracial then. May I ask if you are American? I feel like Americans have a very different concept of race in general (e.g., "the one drop rule"). Like... had no one told me this girl was supposed to be Black, I never would have thought she was in the first place.

There are places in the world where we don't force people to have 'either-or' identities. If you have one Black parent and one Asian parent, you aren't simply Black or Asian, you are both Black and Asian. Same for biracial Black/White. It's only in talking with Americans that I see people having to choose one identity or another, so that's something I don't quite understand.

I am American, from NYC. I identify myself as mixed or multiracial. I'm used to selecting "other" when asked for my race on forms and things. But Im often assumed to be asian by others. Ive struggled over my life to come to a racial identity. Its not as easy to be all of the above as it might seem. Its confusing, it can be alienating, and sometimes it feels like I'm just none of the above. I think thats why Ive taken to identifying not as a black, asian, and hispanic person, but as a multiracial person. When I've talked about race and experience with friends, I tend to feel more overlap with other multiracial friends (regardless of their mix) than I do with my black friends or my asian friends.

But enough about me, how would you define transracial?

That's an interesting comparison. I don't think a person born with both male and female parts is considered transgendered, but I could be wrong. I've seen it referred to as intersex, but I'm not sure if that's an identity. Maybe someone else can shed some light on that.
Im not up on my trans definitions and vocabulary either. I was under the impression that trans, in a gender context, is sort of an umbrella term for people who don't fit or identify with the gender binary. Im willing to accept im wrong in including them under that term though.

Im not sure I'd really consider Rachel Dolezal as transracial as much I'd say she was just trying to pass. And I don't think in this case its fair to draw a parallel between her and say Caitlyn Jenner.

I'm unclear - do you think it's an identity issue or not? If so, how is it different from Caitlyn Jenner?

You know, the more i think about it, the more I'm unclear too. I was having a conversation about this with some co-workers today and I really don't know where I stand on all this anymore. Especially after seeing her say she identifies as black. Its most definitely an identity issue, Im sure of that. Her own self identity is just in contrast to her actual ethnic identity.. I don't know, its confusing, and I certainly don't have the right to tell her how to identify, but something about it still bothers me about a white woman living as a black woman.... Maybe I'm more willing to accept and more easily able to understand a person who feels they are trapped in the wrong gender than I am a person who feels they are trapped in the wrong race.

Haha, I'm sorry to disappoint if there were any expectations to get a clear answer out of me.. Im confused by this, but intrigued. Im just trying to talk out my own thoughts it seems. Like you said, its one of those stories I just ignored at first but now I'm getting drawn in by the broader questions it raises.
lamerde
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6/16/2015 11:55:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/16/2015 10:30:15 PM, DollarStoreSushi wrote:

I am American, from NYC. I identify myself as mixed or multiracial. I'm used to selecting "other" when asked for my race on forms and things. But Im often assumed to be asian by others. Ive struggled over my life to come to a racial identity. Its not as easy to be all of the above as it might seem. Its confusing, it can be alienating, and sometimes it feels like I'm just none of the above. I think thats why Ive taken to identifying not as a black, asian, and hispanic person, but as a multiracial person. When I've talked about race and experience with friends, I tend to feel more overlap with other multiracial friends (regardless of their mix) than I do with my black friends or my asian friends.

Regarding the bold, that is incredibly interesting!

But enough about me, how would you define transracial?

I don't want to define it because I don't believe it makes sense lol but the way I'm seeing the word thrown around in the context of this situation, it would be a person who feels they are another race than their ancestry would suggest.

You know, the more i think about it, the more I'm unclear too. I was having a conversation about this with some co-workers today and I really don't know where I stand on all this anymore. Especially after seeing her say she identifies as black. Its most definitely an identity issue, Im sure of that. Her own self identity is just in contrast to her actual ethnic identity.. I don't know, its confusing, and I certainly don't have the right to tell her how to identify, but something about it still bothers me about a white woman living as a black woman.... Maybe I'm more willing to accept and more easily able to understand a person who feels they are trapped in the wrong gender than I am a person who feels they are trapped in the wrong race.

Haha, I'm sorry to disappoint if there were any expectations to get a clear answer out of me.. Im confused by this, but intrigued. Im just trying to talk out my own thoughts it seems. Like you said, its one of those stories I just ignored at first but now I'm getting drawn in by the broader questions it raises.

I study racial/ethnic identity and I don't have an answer either. I'm hearing a lot of different things from people I respect in the field... I still want to talk about it with a few more people before I make any hard and fast judgements. As it is though, I'm more inclined to withdraw my support for transgender than to support the idea of transracial, if it is the case that people in support of the former also support the latter. I believe the two are separate things... but if people want to argue they are the same, I cannot make sense of transracial and I'd sooner not support either than support both.

Anyway, thank you for the refreshing conversation. I see that you are new to DDO (despite what my profile says, I've been here a long time). It's nice to see new members that have interesting and thoughtful perspectives on social issues. Welcome.
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jkerr3
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6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.
Greyparrot
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6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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6/17/2015 4:40:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.



What exactly is a racial role, I've never heard the phrase before?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,281
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6/17/2015 4:44:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 4:40:37 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.



What exactly is a racial role, I've never heard the phrase before?

It's so funny. People like you will try to justify on a cellular level why one man kills another, then you actually go to the jail cell and spend some time with him only to find out....he just simply wanted the guy dead.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,281
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6/17/2015 4:50:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 4:40:37 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.

Oh and you are absolutely dead wrong about the assumption that chemistry dictates how we develop and think.

How we view ourselves is the absolute main and driving factor for development and can actually change our own body chemistry. The brain can manifest observable changes in the body. There is a reason why some people survive when medical science says (by looking at the chemistry) that they should by all scientific analysis be dead.
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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6/17/2015 4:58:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 4:44:51 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:40:37 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.



What exactly is a racial role, I've never heard the phrase before?

It's so funny. People like you will try to justify on a cellular level why one man kills another, then you actually go to the jail cell and spend some time with him only to find out....he just simply wanted the guy dead.

What? I literally have no idea what your talking about. I never said anything about justifying homicides lol. But in somecases it can be explained "although not on a cellular level" why one person may be more likely to kill someone. Some individuals are more suceptible to mental health problems such as unmanageable rage or bipolar disorder which may make them more likely to be violent.
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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6/17/2015 5:08:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 4:50:44 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:40:37 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/17/2015 4:39:12 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 1:28:59 PM, jkerr3 wrote:
At 6/14/2015 6:04:34 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/14/2015 5:43:39 PM, lamerde wrote:
There are biological differences between the sexes, whereas race is a social construction. There are no real racial categories, so feeling like you're the wrong race doesn't make any logical sense. How do you "feel" a certain race when there is no set criterion for what makes a certain race?

The society we live in forces people to be "consistent" with their sex and gender expression in a way that we don't force people to be consistent with their racial identity and behaviour.

Gender roles are a social construct. Checking boxes for race is a social construct.

Well gender roles are a social construct in terms of saying women should stay home and cook/clean while men go to work. However there are very clear physical and genetic differences between men and women, the brain chemistry of a man is very different than that of a women. So a man saying he feels like a women or vice versa does have a degree of logic behind it. If I shot a man up with estrogen every day for a year his brain chemistry would change, he would literally think differently. Versus if a black guys skin turned white "like Michael Jackson for example" there would literally be no difference whatsoever in their mental or physical chemistry, it's all just appearance.

Our racial roles are not defined by chemistry.

Oh and you are absolutely dead wrong about the assumption that chemistry dictates how we develop and think.

How we view ourselves is the absolute main and driving factor for development and can actually change our own body chemistry. The brain can manifest observable changes in the body. There is a reason why some people survive when medical science says (by looking at the chemistry) that they should by all scientific analysis be dead.

No sir YOU are wrong not me. There are clear physiological differences between men and women, I don't see how you could try and argue the contrary. Now does that men are smarter than women or vice versa? No it does not. But we do have differences in the way we think and act. Furthermore it is the chemicals in our body "such as estrogen vs testosterone" that cause these differences in appearance and behavior.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,281
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6/18/2015 12:51:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/17/2015 5:08:30 PM, jkerr3 wrote:

No sir YOU are wrong not me. There are clear physiological differences between men and women, I don't see how you could try and argue the contrary. Now does that men are smarter than women or vice versa? No it does not. But we do have differences in the way we think and act. Furthermore it is the chemicals in our body "such as estrogen vs testosterone" that cause these differences in appearance and behavior.

Scientists are finding that behaviors affect our neurology " our brain chemistry and brain activity " in profound ways that can replace or supplement pharmacological treatments of even serious mental and physical disorders.

This isn"t about thinking happy thoughts or eating a particular superfood to boost your memory, but experts say there are many specific choices we can make that will physically affect our brains and our mental health.

"Every time you have a thought, there"s a change in your brain," says Judith Beck, president of the Beck Institute for Cognitive Behavior Therapy in Philadelphia.

Beck and her father, Aaron T. Beck, established the Beck Institute based on the methods he first developed in the 1960s. In cognitive behavior therapy, patients work on habits of behavior and thinking that are giving them false and sometimes debilitating perceptions of their capabilities and circumstances, which can contribute to such conditions.

In recent years, randomized trials and brain imaging have demonstrated real changes in the brain brought on by this therapeutic approach, she says.

"It"s the power of realistic thinking," Beck says. "Cognitive therapy produces brain changes just as medication does, but it has a much more lasting impact. It helps people see more clearly and set goals. Frequently, if a person is depressed, they"ll have thoughts that interfere with making changes to their behavior and to solving problems."

Cognitive behavior therapy is not always a replacement for pharmaceutical therapies, although it can be and may work alongside them, Beck says.

"When people are depressed, they see all their experience through these dark lenses," says Beck. "In therapy, we try to scrape away the black paint and see the world for what it is."

Healthy choices successfully interrupt bad effects, both physical and mental, from the stress hormones that can save us in perilous moments but take their toll if they become chronic, says Dr. Diana R. Kerwin, director of the Texas Alzheimer"s and Memory Disorders unit at Texas Health Presbyterian Dallas.

Even for people not undergoing therapy, the lesson is that our conscious choices shape our emotions and our minds at a biological level. Nutrients from food, the restoration from sleep, the body"s reactions from exercise and the biological consequences of our own thoughts all build and nurture " or break down and sap " the very functions in our brain that add or subtract from our well-being.

http://www.dallasnews.com...
jkerr3
Posts: 177
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6/18/2015 3:31:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/18/2015 12:51:02 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/17/2015 5:08:30 PM, jkerr3 wrote:

No sir YOU are wrong not me. There are clear physiological differences between men and women, I don't see how you could try and argue the contrary. Now does that men are smarter than women or vice versa? No it does not. But we do have differences in the way we think and act. Furthermore it is the chemicals in our body "such as estrogen vs testosterone" that cause these differences in appearance and behavior.

Scientists are finding that behaviors affect our neurology " our brain chemistry and brain activity " in profound ways that can replace or supplement pharmacological treatments of even serious mental and physical disorders.

This isn"t about thinking happy thoughts or eating a particular superfood to boost your memory, but experts say there are many specific choices we can make that will physically affect our brains and our mental health.

"Every time you have a thought, there"s a change in your brain," says Judith Beck, president of the Beck Institute for Cognitive Behavior Therapy in Philadelphia.

Beck and her father, Aaron T. Beck, established the Beck Institute based on the methods he first developed in the 1960s. In cognitive behavior therapy, patients work on habits of behavior and thinking that are giving them false and sometimes debilitating perceptions of their capabilities and circumstances, which can contribute to such conditions.

In recent years, randomized trials and brain imaging have demonstrated real changes in the brain brought on by this therapeutic approach, she says.

"It"s the power of realistic thinking," Beck says. "Cognitive therapy produces brain changes just as medication does, but it has a much more lasting impact. It helps people see more clearly and set goals. Frequently, if a person is depressed, they"ll have thoughts that interfere with making changes to their behavior and to solving problems."

Cognitive behavior therapy is not always a replacement for pharmaceutical therapies, although it can be and may work alongside them, Beck says.

"When people are depressed, they see all their experience through these dark lenses," says Beck. "In therapy, we try to scrape away the black paint and see the world for what it is."

Healthy choices successfully interrupt bad effects, both physical and mental, from the stress hormones that can save us in perilous moments but take their toll if they become chronic, says Dr. Diana R. Kerwin, director of the Texas Alzheimer"s and Memory Disorders unit at Texas Health Presbyterian Dallas.

Even for people not undergoing therapy, the lesson is that our conscious choices shape our emotions and our minds at a biological level. Nutrients from food, the restoration from sleep, the body"s reactions from exercise and the biological consequences of our own thoughts all build and nurture " or break down and sap " the very functions in our brain that add or subtract from our well-being.

http://www.dallasnews.com...

My point that men and women have different brain chemistry still stands true, I'm not sure what your trying to prove here?