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"Promoting Rape Culture"

PeacefulChaos
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6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves. From the day I was born, I was taught the basics - look both ways before crossing the street, don't blatantly flash your money around, don't go with strangers who insist they "know my mom." Certainly, these things are acceptable practices in society. We have to protect and be cautious against drivers who don't pay attention, thieves who steal our money, and those who possess ill intentions. Not once was I told not to do these things in fear of promoting a criminal culture; however, a large change in view has appeared in concern to rape.

Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture." The argument goes that, by instead giving women the means to defend themselves, we are not realizing that we should be instead focusing on mitigating rape in the first place; thus, we should instead focus our efforts on teaching young children not to rape others so that the problem will not persist. We should also increase punishment against violators of the law and make sure that rape never happens.

Of course, such a dream is far fetched. Society already very heavily condemns rape to the point that having a history of rape can ruin multiple future opportunities for an individual. Not only are the punishments severe, but so is the view of society towards rapists. Despite this, there still exist a small minority who rape. This is because they are criminals. Criminals, logically, break the law. Should we insist that teaching people how to defend themselves against robbers constitutes as an act that supports "thief culture"? Or, on a larger basis, "criminal culture"?

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves. In fact, I simply disagree with it. I'd like to see what some other people's opinions are. If you support this view, why? What is wrong with encouraging self-defense, and why is the case different in the cases concerning rape?
AFism
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6/19/2015 10:21:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
Yeah, Sure I see your point. But you are thinking about it in binaries. And you are using faulty comparison, although I see your point you tried to make.

People already teach their children how to defend themselves from rape, or any other danger. You know by teaching them how to talk, say yes or no, identify their private spot, and proper human etiquette, so that when a molester comes, they can say no and tell mommy that some one touched their no no spot. Obviously this is on a bigger level for bigger people, as teens are taught maybe self defense class just to protect themselves in general.

Obviously you can see teaching them self defense would protect them from rape and some crime hypothetically.

But then to go as far as making "anti rape wear", telling little girls to cover themselves because a boy may rape them, instead of telling them to cover up because its modest and because you want to, is something way different.

So obviously there are gray areas to this argument, and it seems as though you are thinking in extremes.

It is true that we should teach people not to rape or do bad and also self defense. But there should be a balance in society dealing with rape, women, compared with crime etc. And in society right now, if there are people still victim blaming rape victims because they were dressed in a bikini or drugged, or dating a dumb boyfriend, we are obviously not there yet.
Saint_of_Me
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6/19/2015 10:56:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves. From the day I was born, I was taught the basics - look both ways before crossing the street, don't blatantly flash your money around, don't go with strangers who insist they "know my mom." Certainly, these things are acceptable practices in society. We have to protect and be cautious against drivers who don't pay attention, thieves who steal our money, and those who possess ill intentions. Not once was I told not to do these things in fear of promoting a criminal culture; however, a large change in view has appeared in concern to rape.

Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture." The argument goes that, by instead giving women the means to defend themselves, we are not realizing that we should be instead focusing on mitigating rape in the first place; thus, we should instead focus our efforts on teaching young children not to rape others so that the problem will not persist. We should also increase punishment against violators of the law and make sure that rape never happens.

Of course, such a dream is far fetched. Society already very heavily condemns rape to the point that having a history of rape can ruin multiple future opportunities for an individual. Not only are the punishments severe, but so is the view of society towards rapists. Despite this, there still exist a small minority who rape. This is because they are criminals. Criminals, logically, break the law. Should we insist that teaching people how to defend themselves against robbers constitutes as an act that supports "thief culture"? Or, on a larger basis, "criminal culture"?

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves. In fact, I simply disagree with it. I'd like to see what some other people's opinions are. If you support this view, why? What is wrong with encouraging self-defense, and why is the case different in the cases concerning rape?

I am not sure I agree with you when you claim that society criticizes or denigrates women who take measures to learn how to defend themselves. And to thus prevent rape.

Maybe you can cite some specific intances for me?

I used to be a personal trainer for Gold's Gym in Austin, TX. I taught a Krav Maga course primarily designed for young women. And my ex-wife was a brown belt in Aikido and also taught a couple of womens' self defense classes. Nowhere in this mixdid I ever see or even hear about anybody criticizing or ostracizing these women students.

Also, I work in the MH department for the VA. We deal with female vets all the time who were victims of sexual assault during their service. Some of them even undergo PTSD classes and programs. Nobody aorund here ever criticizes them, nor doubts the veracity of their claims.

Instead it has been my personal experience that these women who are assertive enough to try and protect themselves are commended. And envied by other women as well.

Your whole "rape culture" claim is invisible to me. Basically I have no idea what you are talking about, my friend. It sounds as if you have a personal opinion on the subject, perhaps gleaned from an unsavory experience, and you are attempting to portray that opinion as an a priori mindset of the entire country.

Or am I way off base here?

Thanks!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/19/2015 11:00:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves. From the day I was born, I was taught the basics - look both ways before crossing the street, don't blatantly flash your money around, don't go with strangers who insist they "know my mom." Certainly, these things are acceptable practices in society. We have to protect and be cautious against drivers who don't pay attention, thieves who steal our money, and those who possess ill intentions. Not once was I told not to do these things in fear of promoting a criminal culture; however, a large change in view has appeared in concern to rape.

Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture." The argument goes that, by instead giving women the means to defend themselves, we are not realizing that we should be instead focusing on mitigating rape in the first place; thus, we should instead focus our efforts on teaching young children not to rape others so that the problem will not persist. We should also increase punishment against violators of the law and make sure that rape never happens.

Of course, such a dream is far fetched. Society already very heavily condemns rape to the point that having a history of rape can ruin multiple future opportunities for an individual. Not only are the punishments severe, but so is the view of society towards rapists. Despite this, there still exist a small minority who rape. This is because they are criminals. Criminals, logically, break the law. Should we insist that teaching people how to defend themselves against robbers constitutes as an act that supports "thief culture"? Or, on a larger basis, "criminal culture"?

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves. In fact, I simply disagree with it. I'd like to see what some other people's opinions are. If you support this view, why? What is wrong with encouraging self-defense, and why is the case different in the cases concerning rape?

Womens' self defense classes has even become a popular COLLEGE course! So it seems as if the Nation's Academia has also embraced this idea. The courses have only increased in popularity over the past decade.

http://college.usatoday.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
DanMGTOW
Posts: 1,144
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6/20/2015 7:34:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves. From the day I was born, I was taught the basics - look both ways before crossing the street, don't blatantly flash your money around, don't go with strangers who insist they "know my mom." Certainly, these things are acceptable practices in society. We have to protect and be cautious against drivers who don't pay attention, thieves who steal our money, and those who possess ill intentions. Not once was I told not to do these things in fear of promoting a criminal culture; however, a large change in view has appeared in concern to rape.

Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture." The argument goes that, by instead giving women the means to defend themselves, we are not realizing that we should be instead focusing on mitigating rape in the first place; thus, we should instead focus our efforts on teaching young children not to rape others so that the problem will not persist. We should also increase punishment against violators of the law and make sure that rape never happens.

Of course, such a dream is far fetched. Society already very heavily condemns rape to the point that having a history of rape can ruin multiple future opportunities for an individual. Not only are the punishments severe, but so is the view of society towards rapists. Despite this, there still exist a small minority who rape. This is because they are criminals. Criminals, logically, break the law. Should we insist that teaching people how to defend themselves against robbers constitutes as an act that supports "thief culture"? Or, on a larger basis, "criminal culture"?

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves. In fact, I simply disagree with it. I'd like to see what some other people's opinions are. If you support this view, why? What is wrong with encouraging self-defense, and why is the case different in the cases concerning rape?

of course there is a rape culture. most women are physically weaker than most men, add on the fact that most women don't know how to effectively defend themselves, and you get a gender that are regularly victimized.

www.oneinthreewomen.com

it's too bad that women are powerless to prevent rape, but at least the patriarchy protects most men from being falsely accused (at least from serving time in prison).
PeacefulChaos
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6/20/2015 9:10:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 10:21:22 PM, AFism wrote:
Yeah, Sure I see your point. But you are thinking about it in binaries. And you are using faulty comparison, although I see your point you tried to make.

People already teach their children how to defend themselves from rape, or any other danger. You know by teaching them how to talk, say yes or no, identify their private spot, and proper human etiquette, so that when a molester comes, they can say no and tell mommy that some one touched their no no spot. Obviously this is on a bigger level for bigger people, as teens are taught maybe self defense class just to protect themselves in general.

Obviously you can see teaching them self defense would protect them from rape and some crime hypothetically.

But then to go as far as making "anti rape wear", telling little girls to cover themselves because a boy may rape them, instead of telling them to cover up because its modest and because you want to, is something way different.

Although this was not what I was referring to, I'm not sure "covering up" would necessarily make you less likely to get raped.


So obviously there are gray areas to this argument, and it seems as though you are thinking in extremes.

I don't think I'm thinking in extremes, since I'm just responding to what I've seen. Unless you mean that I'm responding to extreme viewpoints on this matter, in which case I'd probably agree with you.


It is true that we should teach people not to rape or do bad and also self defense. But there should be a balance in society dealing with rape, women, compared with crime etc. And in society right now, if there are people still victim blaming rape victims because they were dressed in a bikini or drugged, or dating a dumb boyfriend, we are obviously not there yet.

How does promoting self-defense equate to blaming victims? I hardly think you can blame someone for being drugged, but you can educate the populace on how to check for signs of when you might be drugged. There's nothing wrong with that.
PeacefulChaos
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6/20/2015 9:38:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 10:56:03 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

I am not sure I agree with you when you claim that society criticizes or denigrates women who take measures to learn how to defend themselves. And to thus prevent rape.

I am also not sure I agree with the idea that society criticizes or denigrates women who take measures to learn how to defend themselves. I believe the majority of people wouldn't do this. Instead, this thread is a response to a group of people (largely feminists who seem to be prevalent on the internet) who insist on this viewpoint.


Maybe you can cite some specific intances for me?

Many instances of my experience have been seen through my Facebook page, where I'd see friends or friends of friends would post comments or articles relating to this issue. If you'd like some articles or videos, though, then here are some ones I've found through a quick Google search:

https://www.youtube.com...

In this video, the examples of what I were saying begin around 1:28. Before that is some humorous exaggeration of those who put responsibility on the women to not get raped. Some of the tips she lists are actually useful (things that apply to both genders in cases both within and outside of rape), and some of the the things her parents provided her at an early age (such as self-defense classes) are thought to also promote rape culture.

http://thinkprogress.org...

This article is a review of the reaction to the date-rape nail polish that was made some time ago. Although the technology is actually held in a positive light in this article in that it is well-meaning, people still insist that this technology ultimately promotes rape culture and is misguided.

http://thinkprogress.org...

This is the last one I'll show. As you can see, there are some standards in the article that are ridiculous and there are others that are acceptable. For example, when Miss USA suggested that young women take self defense classes to protect themselves, the statement was received very negatively, with many saying that it's not the solution and that her thoughts promote rape culture. At the same time, saying that women have to marry and have to avoid public transportation to avoid rape is, in my opinion, too much. Women should not have to take such measures, but at the same time it is good to encourage practices that are not limiting to women.

If you want to find more articles or examples, just search in Google about women protecting themselves against rape. I'm sure many will pop up.


Your whole "rape culture" claim is invisible to me. Basically I have no idea what you are talking about, my friend. It sounds as if you have a personal opinion on the subject, perhaps gleaned from an unsavory experience, and you are attempting to portray that opinion as an a priori mindset of the entire country.

I don't recall trying to portray this opinion as the mindset of this entire country. Perhaps my original post was poorly worded. I was operating under the assumption that people were aware of this mindset. Regardless, I see your experiences have shaped you to think differently, which is just fine. I think it's good that you've worked in such places that help others train to protect themselves.
Saint_of_Me
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6/20/2015 12:01:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 9:38:41 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/19/2015 10:56:03 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

I am not sure I agree with you when you claim that society criticizes or denigrates women who take measures to learn how to defend themselves. And to thus prevent rape.

I am also not sure I agree with the idea that society criticizes or denigrates women who take measures to learn how to defend themselves. I believe the majority of people wouldn't do this. Instead, this thread is a response to a group of people (largely feminists who seem to be prevalent on the internet) who insist on this viewpoint.


Maybe you can cite some specific intances for me?

Many instances of my experience have been seen through my Facebook page, where I'd see friends or friends of friends would post comments or articles relating to this issue. If you'd like some articles or videos, though, then here are some ones I've found through a quick Google search:

https://www.youtube.com...

In this video, the examples of what I were saying begin around 1:28. Before that is some humorous exaggeration of those who put responsibility on the women to not get raped. Some of the tips she lists are actually useful (things that apply to both genders in cases both within and outside of rape), and some of the the things her parents provided her at an early age (such as self-defense classes) are thought to also promote rape culture.

http://thinkprogress.org...

This article is a review of the reaction to the date-rape nail polish that was made some time ago. Although the technology is actually held in a positive light in this article in that it is well-meaning, people still insist that this technology ultimately promotes rape culture and is misguided.

http://thinkprogress.org...

This is the last one I'll show. As you can see, there are some standards in the article that are ridiculous and there are others that are acceptable. For example, when Miss USA suggested that young women take self defense classes to protect themselves, the statement was received very negatively, with many saying that it's not the solution and that her thoughts promote rape culture. At the same time, saying that women have to marry and have to avoid public transportation to avoid rape is, in my opinion, too much. Women should not have to take such measures, but at the same time it is good to encourage practices that are not limiting to women.

If you want to find more articles or examples, just search in Google about women protecting themselves against rape. I'm sure many will pop up.


Your whole "rape culture" claim is invisible to me. Basically I have no idea what you are talking about, my friend. It sounds as if you have a personal opinion on the subject, perhaps gleaned from an unsavory experience, and you are attempting to portray that opinion as an a priori mindset of the entire country.

I don't recall trying to portray this opinion as the mindset of this entire country. Perhaps my original post was poorly worded. I was operating under the assumption that people were aware of this mindset. Regardless, I see your experiences have shaped you to think differently, which is just fine. I think it's good that you've worked in such places that help others train to protect themselves.

Oh..I see, a Facebook page.

And I do not recall the Miss America quote be taken in a negative light.

Thus I have come to the conclusion your claim you made in your OP is groundless. Purely in your own mind. You are engaging in what is called "confirmation bias." That is, you cherry pick the things that might coincide with your views. And ignore the 99% that don't.

There is no "rape culture."

Your whole OP is absurd. This will be my final post. I do not want to waste any more time.

I am guessing you have some serious issues you are trying to work through.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
AFism
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6/20/2015 12:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 9:10:37 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/19/2015 10:21:22 PM, AFism wrote:
Yeah, Sure I see your point. But you are thinking about it in binaries. And you are using faulty comparison, although I see your point you tried to make.

People already teach their children how to defend themselves from rape, or any other danger. You know by teaching them how to talk, say yes or no, identify their private spot, and proper human etiquette, so that when a molester comes, they can say no and tell mommy that some one touched their no no spot. Obviously this is on a bigger level for bigger people, as teens are taught maybe self defense class just to protect themselves in general.

Obviously you can see teaching them self defense would protect them from rape and some crime hypothetically.

But then to go as far as making "anti rape wear", telling little girls to cover themselves because a boy may rape them, instead of telling them to cover up because its modest and because you want to, is something way different.

Although this was not what I was referring to, I'm not sure "covering up" would necessarily make you less likely to get raped.


Wrong. Women in the muslim world get raped and they are in burkas and praying to Allah.

So obviously there are gray areas to this argument, and it seems as though you are thinking in extremes.

I don't think I'm thinking in extremes, since I'm just responding to what I've seen. Unless you mean that I'm responding to extreme viewpoints on this matter, in which case I'd probably agree with you.

Exactly, which is why you should explore the gray area, and think of people that are rape victims, more than being rape victims in the abstract. Make it personal, what if it was you that were raped, and some one told you that you shouldn't have had your shirt off?


It is true that we should teach people not to rape or do bad and also self defense. But there should be a balance in society dealing with rape, women, compared with crime etc. And in society right now, if there are people still victim blaming rape victims because they were dressed in a bikini or drugged, or dating a dumb boyfriend, we are obviously not there yet.

How does promoting self-defense equate to blaming victims?

It doesn't. I'm telling you that we should teach self defense and not victim blame.

I hardly think you can blame someone for being drugged, but you can educate the populace on how to check for signs of when you might be drugged.

Yes that is a life skill though, no defense should be categorized as "anti rape" its all in the language.

There's nothing wrong with that.

Of course.
AFism
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6/20/2015 12:34:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also peaceful, Your assuming that its always women that get raped, a lot of people assume this.

This isn't always the case. Both genders need to be taught how not to rape and self defense. Not just one. Which is why people get so mad when women only tell young girls all of this sensitive information. It just reinforces a double standard that people have fought so hard to not be there.
PeacefulChaos
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6/20/2015 1:28:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:01:09 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote::

And I do not recall the Miss America quote be taken in a negative light.

It is irrelevant whether you recall this fact or not. If you wish to research the response to it, please do so. I don't intend to provide you with links, however, since you ignored the ones I provided despite asking for them in the first place.


Thus I have come to the conclusion your claim you made in your OP is groundless. Purely in your own mind. You are engaging in what is called "confirmation bias." That is, you cherry pick the things that might coincide with your views. And ignore the 99% that don't.

I am confused. Please clarify for me: what am I cherry picking that "coincides" with my view? You haven't yet said what I'm being biased about. I'm simply responding to the views of a group of people and I don't see how that is being biased or how it is cherry picking. It is irrelevant if this group is a minority or a majority.

You say my OP is groundless. What about it is groundless? You're making such general and vague statements that I don't even know what you're attacking in my post.

You also seem very quick to assume that I think most of society believes that there is a rape culture that we are promoting, yet I've already said that I don't. I think you read too quickly and don't comprehend what I'm saying. Please read that one more time. Then read everything I've written, think about it, and slowly comprehend that you have completely misunderstood me. For example, you statement below confirms this fact:


There is no "rape culture."

I never tried to say there was a rape culture. The fact that you think I am arguing for one demonstrates that you have severely misunderstood what I've been writing and have not carefully read what I am trying to convey.

Further, whether there is a rape culture or not is irrelevant to this thread. If you do not believe there are groups of people out there who believe there is a rape culture, then I encourage you to do some research.


Your whole OP is absurd. This will be my final post. I do not want to waste any more time.

Once again, a very general and vague statement. What about it is absurd?

I am a little concerned that, instead of reading anything I've written, you will continue to attack my OP and make further offensive remarks. I hope that, once you've read everything, we can come to an understanding. I honestly believe we agree on this matter more than you think, but you simply did not properly comprehend what I was writing to you.
PeacefulChaos
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6/20/2015 1:34:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:31:04 PM, AFism wrote:

: : Although this was not what I was referring to, I'm not sure "covering up" would necessarily make you less likely to get raped.


Wrong. Women in the muslim world get raped and they are in burkas and praying to Allah.

I STRONGLY encourage you to read my previous statement once again. I've even bolded it for you. Then please realize that I already agree with you and you assumed that I was saying something else. I clearly stated that covering up does NOT necessarily make you LESS likely to get raped.

I am sorry if I seem a little insistent on this fact, but in many threads, I sometimes encounter people making assumptions and misreading what I wrote, then quickly trying to prove me wrong or even attacking my character. It's gotten a little annoying.


Exactly, which is why you should explore the gray area, and think of people that are rape victims, more than being rape victims in the abstract. Make it personal, what if it was you that were raped, and some one told you that you shouldn't have had your shirt off?

Again, that's not my primary concern. Those who attack victims about their amount of clothing is not what I'm addressing in this thread.


It doesn't. I'm telling you that we should teach self defense and not victim blame.

Then we agree on this matter, and I'm glad we do.
PeacefulChaos
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6/20/2015 1:40:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 12:34:30 PM, AFism wrote:
Also peaceful, Your assuming that its always women that get raped, a lot of people assume this.

Actually, I'd say you are assuming that I am assuming that its always women that get raped.

"Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas ..."

When I said general populace, I meant everyone (including both men and women).

Regardless, I stuck with women because the majority of reported cases of rape are those where the victim is a woman. That doesn't mean men don't get raped, though, and I do realize that there are plenty rape cases that aren't accounted for.
Saint_of_Me
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6/20/2015 3:05:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 1:51:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I think I'm just done with this thread.

Good. It was spawned from a fallacious hypothesis to begin with.

Stillborn, as they say in rhetoric circles.

Maybe I am so vehemently against your idea becauseI work with people who counsel and assist women who have undergone sexual assault? And I used to teach womens' self-defense. So I am fully aware that they are supported by and large and in no way condemned.

Like this........

https://www.rainn.org...

Where's a nuance of a rape culture? Again. Where? (besides in your own head?)

It's cool bro--everyone is entitled to their own opinions. It's just that yours is wrong.

No biggie. And no offense.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
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6/20/2015 3:08:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
yeah...women like this.

We help every day.

So does the Government. Congress. Law Enforcement. Support Groups. Other women; Charitable Organizations, et al.

http://www.usatoday.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
AFism
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6/20/2015 3:25:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 1:51:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I think I'm just done with this thread.

Yeah you should probably try to put yourself in their shoes. Its eye opening
Harper
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6/20/2015 4:43:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I feel so sorry for you, man, this thread became a trainwreck really quickly. A thread with such a well written OP does not deserve such a fate.

I also think that this whole "teach men not to rape" is ridiculous. Not only does it ignore the existence of female rapists, it also has no basis in reality. Rapists know that it's a crime, they have been told by society over and over again that rapists are evil-- they just do not care. Teaching is useless if students is too mentally sick to learn.

For those of you who do not understand the attitudes on rape prevention OP was talking about:
https://m.youtube.com...
smelisox
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6/20/2015 5:11:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Women can't rape as easily, you'd need the man to be excited. This already invalidates any rape using chloroform or GHB to put the victim in a coma, as they could not sustain an erection.
Death23
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6/21/2015 2:21:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves.

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves. In fact, I simply disagree with it.

This is a straw man.
PeacefulChaos
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6/21/2015 9:59:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 3:05:33 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

Where's a nuance of a rape culture? Again. Where? (besides in your own head?)

Once again, I am not arguing that there is a rape culture. Read that several times, since you clearly didn't comprehend anything I've written so far.

I was considering responding to the rest of your post, but I wanted to make this short and concise, since you seem to ignore about 90% of what I say. If you've read this far, then go back and read over what I wrote. Then you can see that I was never arguing for or against the existence of rape culture, which was not even the topic of the thread.
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6/21/2015 10:01:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 3:25:42 PM, AFism wrote:

Yeah you should probably try to put yourself in their shoes. Its eye opening

I assume that means we've solved our previous disputes.
PeacefulChaos
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6/21/2015 10:07:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 4:43:19 PM, Harper wrote:
At 6/19/2015 9:52:41 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
I feel so sorry for you, man, this thread became a trainwreck really quickly. A thread with such a well written OP does not deserve such a fate.

I also think that this whole "teach men not to rape" is ridiculous. Not only does it ignore the existence of female rapists, it also has no basis in reality. Rapists know that it's a crime, they have been told by society over and over again that rapists are evil-- they just do not care. Teaching is useless if students is too mentally sick to learn.

For those of you who do not understand the attitudes on rape prevention OP was talking about:
https://m.youtube.com...

Thanks for posting that link. The individual in question ignored it when I provided it, but maybe he/she will see it now.

As for teaching, there's nothing wrong with teaching people not to rape from an early age, but I do agree that there's not much else we can do in terms of education if people blatantly refuse to acknowledge whether or not it's a crime and still continue to rape. From there, it matters how the children were raised and what kind of values they have.
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6/21/2015 10:10:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 2:21:05 AM, Death23 wrote:

This is a straw man.

I'm afraid it's not. As I've already provided with some links above, some people believe that encouraging forms of self-defense from rape promotes rape culture by shoving responsibility on the victim instead of the rapist.
Death23
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6/21/2015 12:53:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 10:10:32 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/21/2015 2:21:05 AM, Death23 wrote:

This is a straw man.

I'm afraid it's not. As I've already provided with some links above, some people believe that encouraging forms of self-defense from rape promotes rape culture by shoving responsibility on the victim instead of the rapist.

I read the articles. That's not what they said. You gotta quote them, not merely provide a link and paraphrase. paraphrasing leads to straw man often.
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6/21/2015 3:23:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 9:59:14 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/20/2015 3:05:33 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

Where's a nuance of a rape culture? Again. Where? (besides in your own head?)

Once again, I am not arguing that there is a rape culture. Read that several times, since you clearly didn't comprehend anything I've written so far.

I was considering responding to the rest of your post, but I wanted to make this short and concise, since you seem to ignore about 90% of what I say. If you've read this far, then go back and read over what I wrote. Then you can see that I was never arguing for or against the existence of rape culture, which was not even the topic of the thread.

OK...I think I understand now what you were trying to say in your OP.

I guess when I read THIS in your second 'grpah I thought you were claiming there WAS a rape culture.......

"Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture."

But you DID continue to say you disagree with that mindset.

So I apologize of I accused you of erroneously claiming that something existed that in fact does not.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
PeacefulChaos
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6/21/2015 5:51:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 12:53:37 PM, Death23 wrote:

I read the articles. That's not what they said. You gotta quote them, not merely provide a link and paraphrase. paraphrasing leads to straw man often.

It's true that paraphrasing can lead to that. I'll quote as you asked:

"Now, remembering to put on anti-rape nail polish and discreetly slip a finger into each drink might be added to that ever-growing checklist " something that actually reinforces a pervasive rape culture in our society."

This was in regard to the new technology for nail polish. Despite a useful measure to prevent an individual from getting drugged and being viewed as well-meaning, it is ultimately something that is viewed as a negative contribution by rape prevention activists in regards to rape culture.
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6/21/2015 5:55:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 3:23:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

OK...I think I understand now what you were trying to say in your OP.

I guess when I read THIS in your second 'grpah I thought you were claiming there WAS a rape culture.......

"Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture."

Okay, sorry for the miscommunication there. You're right in that the statement can be interpreted differently. I'm glad we cleared things up, though.
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6/21/2015 6:43:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:51:06 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/21/2015 12:53:37 PM, Death23 wrote:

I read the articles. That's not what they said. You gotta quote them, not merely provide a link and paraphrase. paraphrasing leads to straw man often.

It's true that paraphrasing can lead to that. I'll quote as you asked:

"Now, remembering to put on anti-rape nail polish and discreetly slip a finger into each drink might be added to that ever-growing checklist " something that actually reinforces a pervasive rape culture in our society."

This was in regard to the new technology for nail polish. Despite a useful measure to prevent an individual from getting drugged and being viewed as well-meaning, it is ultimately something that is viewed as a negative contribution by rape prevention activists in regards to rape culture.

OK. Now I understand. Your OP paraphrased like this:

I was reasonably shocked when I discovered that it was frowned upon to encourage people to learn how to protect themselves.

I truly do not understand this new view that condemns the strengthening of individuals in order to protect themselves.

The author's position was that, generally, methods for women to protect themselves from rape shouldn't be developed. This you did include in your OP.

What you did not include was the author's proposed alternative solution - That the focus of rape prevention efforts should be to, somehow, cause men not to attempt to rape women in the first place. You additionally did not include the author's reasons - That self/rape defense tools contribute to victim blaming and the cultural normalization of rape. I said straw man because your OP did not include these points, and consequently misrepresented the opposing view.

Anyway, I don't agree with the author either. Her priorities are very misplaced. Preventing actual rapes is substantially more important than preventing victim blaming or rape culture. If the social cost of rape prevention tools is more victim blaming and undesirable cultural attitudes toward rape, then so be it. It's worth it.
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6/21/2015 8:18:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/21/2015 5:55:05 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 6/21/2015 3:23:21 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:

OK...I think I understand now what you were trying to say in your OP.

I guess when I read THIS in your second 'grpah I thought you were claiming there WAS a rape culture.......

"Whenever there is a movement that gives women (rather, the general populace) good ideas or technology to learn how to avoid rapists or those who may cause them harm, it is immediately shot down and berated, viewed as something that promotes "rape culture."

Okay, sorry for the miscommunication there. You're right in that the statement can be interpreted differently. I'm glad we cleared things up, though.

No worries, mate!
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.