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Castle Doctrine

PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 5:25:02 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have a question regarding the Castle Doctrine for citizens in countries where it is illegal to possess a firearm in your home.

For instance, the link I am providing states that the Castle Doctrine stems from English Common Law. Since it is illegal for most ordinary citizens in Europe to own firearms, with limited exceptions, are you allowed to kill an intruder who is on your property and in your home? Does justifiable homicide exist, and if so, or if not, are there extenuating circumstances?

Given the prevailing law in your country, do you find the laws are reasonable or unreasonable? State why you find them (un)reasonable.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
tvellalott
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8/13/2010 5:27:23 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 5:25:02 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
I have a question regarding the Castle Doctrine for citizens in countries where it is illegal to possess a firearm in your home.

For instance, the link I am providing states that the Castle Doctrine stems from English Common Law. Since it is illegal for most ordinary citizens in Europe to own firearms, with limited exceptions, are you allowed to kill an intruder who is on your property and in your home? Does justifiable homicide exist, and if so, or if not, are there extenuating circumstances?

Given the prevailing law in your country, do you find the laws are reasonable or unreasonable? State why you find them (un)reasonable.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org...

I'm one such country(Australia). I'm not actually sure what the law is.
I don't particularly care what the law is. If killing someone was the only way to protect my loved ones I'd crack skulls.
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brian_eggleston
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8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).

However, a householder is allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself or his family.

The amount of violence used has to be in direct proportion to the threat. For example, you couldn't stab a burglar to death just because he happened to be in your house -he'd have to be threatening your life somehow.

I think this law strikes the correct balance - otherwise people could end up being killed for just for trespassing: which is a crime, but not one punishable by death.
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I-am-a-panda
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8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.
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feverish
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8/13/2010 6:15:42 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.

Eh? Think handguns are now completely outlawed in Ireland again http://www.nraila.org... http://sparks.journals.ie... and I can't see a powerful automatic pistol like a Glock, ever having been in general sale over there.

But yeah, the ROI is a lot more in favour of the property owner than UK law is, lethal force and castle doctrine (standing to fight when you could have run away) is supported in Irish law.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 6:24:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).:

Yes, and as a result, knife attacks are at an all time high in the UK, which only serves to prove that inanimate objects aren't the problem... People are.

The amount of violence used has to be in direct proportion to the threat. For example, you couldn't stab a burglar to death just because he happened to be in your house -he'd have to be threatening your life somehow.:

If he is armed, and in your house illegally, isn't there a reasonable expectation that he is there to harm you?

I think this law strikes the correct balance - otherwise people could end up being killed for just for trespassing: which is a crime, but not one punishable by death.:

Well, you're right, as I heard of one case where a man was killed simply for ringing a doorbell. His defense attempted to use the Castle Doctrine as a reasonable defense, but it fell flat on its face (for rather obvious reasons).
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feverish
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8/13/2010 6:37:38 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:24:48 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).:

Yes, and as a result, knife attacks are at an all time high in the UK, which only serves to prove that inanimate objects aren't the problem... People are.

Thats not an argument against gun control, it's an argument in favour of knife control. Believe it or not the US actually has more regulation on the possession and sale of knives than the UK. http://www.keywestknifeworks.com... If we restricted the sale and ownership of knives more, we'd likely see a reduction in knife crime too.
Volkov
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8/13/2010 6:42:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think the idea that a total ban on guns is more than a little unreasonable. There's nothing wrong with owning a handgun to protect your property and family, or a rifle to go hunting. I think it should all be registered, but if you want to own a gun, go ahead.

The question is, though, what exactly do you need a fully automatic assault weapon for in civilian life? And why exactly is it sensible to allow mentally unstable people to own weapons like that?

Guns are fine, but you don't need an array of military assault weapons designed to do nothing but kill another person to defend your home.
I-am-a-panda
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8/13/2010 6:47:49 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:15:42 AM, feverish wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.

Eh? Think handguns are now completely outlawed in Ireland again http://www.nraila.org... http://sparks.journals.ie... and I can't see a powerful automatic pistol like a Glock, ever having been in general sale over there.

I remember last summer I went gun shooting, and were informed that we could import glocks that could shot over here, but a registered gun owner had to sign off on it. Extremely unfortunate if they have been banned.


But yeah, the ROI is a lot more in favour of the property owner than UK law is, lethal force and castle doctrine (standing to fight when you could have run away) is supported in Irish law.

There as a time when they had the ridiculous restraint of force laws whereby, in injured on your property, a burglar could sue you.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 6:55:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Thats not an argument against gun control, it's an argument in favour of knife control. Believe it or not the US actually has more regulation on the possession and sale of knives than the UK. http://www.keywestknifeworks.com... If we restricted the sale and ownership of knives more, we'd likely see a reduction in knife crime too.:

It's a very naive concept, really. Murder has always existed and always will. Prison, alone, teaches that human ingenuity is the greatest weapon. Prisoners make shanks out of everything, even twisted up cellophane, burning it down to a point.

And, of course, there is the most obvious argument against gun control -- Criminals, by definition, are people who don't obey the law. So by placing restrictions on guns, the only one's you're really hurt are the law-abiding citizens who use them to protect themselves from those who flout the law.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
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8/13/2010 6:58:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:47:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:15:42 AM, feverish wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.

Eh? Think handguns are now completely outlawed in Ireland again http://www.nraila.org... http://sparks.journals.ie... and I can't see a powerful automatic pistol like a Glock, ever having been in general sale over there.

I remember last summer I went gun shooting, and were informed that we could import glocks that could shot over here, but a registered gun owner had to sign off on it. Extremely unfortunate if they have been banned.


But yeah, the ROI is a lot more in favour of the property owner than UK law is, lethal force and castle doctrine (standing to fight when you could have run away) is supported in Irish law.

There as a time when they had the ridiculous restraint of force laws whereby, in injured on your property, a burglar could sue you.

has that been gotten rid of?
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brian_eggleston
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8/13/2010 6:59:52 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:42:22 AM, Volkov wrote:
I think the idea that a total ban on guns is more than a little unreasonable.

But idon't stories like this one concern you?

Boy dies after Liberty County shooting

A 7-year-old boy who loved playing outdoors and riding on the back of his daddy's Harley died Saturday morning after a Liberty County couple opened fire on him and three other alleged trespassers, Liberty County Sheriff's Cpl. Hugh Bishop said.

Donald Coffey Jr., his father and friends were on their way back from joy riding near a levee and swimming in the Trinity River around 9 p.m. Thursday when homeowners Gale and Sheila Muhs fired at them with a 12-gauge shotgun, police say.

The boy, struck in the face, was among eight people, including four children, who had been on the river outing. Four people, including another child, were shot.

Nelton said the ordeal happened over two or three minutes in "pitch darkness."

She said she was driving a sport utility vehicle with the boy's mother, Becky Coffey. Two of the women's children, including Destiny, were in the back.

Driving alongside them in a Jeep were Cammack, the elder Coffey, "Little Donald" and Cammack's son.

The men stopped to use the bathroom and got out of the Jeep near the Muhses' home in the Westlake subdivision south of Dayton when a woman's voice boomed through the darkness, Nelton said.

In a message peppered with expletives, she said, the voice ordered the group to get their vehicles off the property.

"And then I heard a shot and our windows were blown out," Nelton said.

Nelton, who never saw a shooter, said she immediately stomped on the gas and screamed, "We've got kids in this vehicle! Y'all need to stop shooting!"

A second shot, and possibly others, came in reply.


http://www.chron.com...
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I-am-a-panda
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8/13/2010 7:00:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:58:36 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:47:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:15:42 AM, feverish wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.

Eh? Think handguns are now completely outlawed in Ireland again http://www.nraila.org... http://sparks.journals.ie... and I can't see a powerful automatic pistol like a Glock, ever having been in general sale over there.

I remember last summer I went gun shooting, and were informed that we could import glocks that could shot over here, but a registered gun owner had to sign off on it. Extremely unfortunate if they have been banned.


But yeah, the ROI is a lot more in favour of the property owner than UK law is, lethal force and castle doctrine (standing to fight when you could have run away) is supported in Irish law.

There as a time when they had the ridiculous restraint of force laws whereby, in injured on your property, a burglar could sue you.

has that been gotten rid of?

I'm pretty sure. http://www.bbc.co.uk...
Pizza. I have enormous respect for Pizza.
badger
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8/13/2010 7:03:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 7:00:58 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:58:36 AM, badger wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:47:49 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:15:42 AM, feverish wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:03:57 AM, I-am-a-panda wrote:
In Ireland, there a restrictions on firearms, but handguns (E.g. glocks), bolt-action rifles (I've fired a .22), and shotguns (Not semi-auto) are a-okay. However, they're suppsoed to be locked away at all times, but an exception can be made if you're being threatened. And last I checked you were allowed use any force necessary to protect yourself and property.

Eh? Think handguns are now completely outlawed in Ireland again http://www.nraila.org... http://sparks.journals.ie... and I can't see a powerful automatic pistol like a Glock, ever having been in general sale over there.

I remember last summer I went gun shooting, and were informed that we could import glocks that could shot over here, but a registered gun owner had to sign off on it. Extremely unfortunate if they have been banned.


But yeah, the ROI is a lot more in favour of the property owner than UK law is, lethal force and castle doctrine (standing to fight when you could have run away) is supported in Irish law.

There as a time when they had the ridiculous restraint of force laws whereby, in injured on your property, a burglar could sue you.

has that been gotten rid of?

I'm pretty sure. http://www.bbc.co.uk...

i remember the incident they're on about in that link. that was a farmer killing two tinkers with a shot gun wasn't it?
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Reasoning
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8/13/2010 7:04:10 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons

http://www.mutualist.org...
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 7:11:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:59:52 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/13/2010 6:42:22 AM, Volkov wrote:
I think the idea that a total ban on guns is more than a little unreasonable.

But idon't stories like this one concern you?:

Because isolated incidents shouldn't determine the fate and right of millions.

Automobiles kill 50 times more people than any weapon, yet we don't unilaterally ban cars, nor should we.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
feverish
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8/13/2010 7:37:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 6:55:31 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
It's a very naive concept, really. Murder has always existed and always will. Prison, alone, teaches that human ingenuity is the greatest weapon. Prisoners make shanks out of everything, even twisted up cellophane, burning it down to a point.

The fact that some prisoners are desperate and resourceful enough to manufacture improvised weapons, doesn't justify allowing them to purchase firearms in their tuckshop does it?

Clearly if weapons weren't regulated in prison, there would be far worse violence than there is now.

And, of course, there is the most obvious argument against gun control -- Criminals, by definition, are people who don't obey the law. So by placing restrictions on guns, the only one's you're really hurt are the law-abiding citizens who use them to protect themselves from those who flout the law.

A gun has only one utility, deadly force. I think by owning a gun, you are expressing an intention to use such force, which I think should be criminal, yes.

The UK has it's own problems with guns, but thankfully, it is confined mostly to (semi) organised criminal feuds. Home-owners don't get shot in burglaries in England, because burglars have no reason to carry guns. When innocent people are caught up in gun violence in this country, it is most often crazy dudes with legally owned guns doing the shooting. http://en.wikipedia.org... http://www.channel4.com...

At 8/13/2010 7:11:59 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:

Automobiles kill 50 times more people than any weapon, yet we don't unilaterally ban cars, nor should we.

Cars can be deadly if misused sure, but guns are designed with the sole purpose of being deadly, there is a big difference.
Prox
Posts: 128
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8/13/2010 7:39:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).

However, a householder is allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself or his family.

The amount of violence used has to be in direct proportion to the threat. For example, you couldn't stab a burglar to death just because he happened to be in your house -he'd have to be threatening your life somehow.

I think this law strikes the correct balance - otherwise people could end up being killed for just for trespassing: which is a crime, but not one punishable by death.

How do people hunt and stuff? Or defend themselves?
brian_eggleston
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8/13/2010 7:48:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 7:39:17 AM, Prox wrote:
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).

However, a householder is allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself or his family.

The amount of violence used has to be in direct proportion to the threat. For example, you couldn't stab a burglar to death just because he happened to be in your house -he'd have to be threatening your life somehow.

I think this law strikes the correct balance - otherwise people could end up being killed for just for trespassing: which is a crime, but not one punishable by death.

How do people hunt and stuff? Or defend themselves?

Hunting? Britain is not that backward - we are not a nation of hunter-gatherers and have been buying meat and vegetables from shops and markets for well over a thousand years now!

Defending oneself? I usually use my fists, but it is really the job of the police to intervene if someone is attacked.
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PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 8:16:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
The fact that some prisoners are desperate and resourceful enough to manufacture improvised weapons, doesn't justify allowing them to purchase firearms in their tuckshop does it?:

People who commit violent felonies lose their privilege of owning firearms, so it's a moot point.

Clearly if weapons weren't regulated in prison, there would be far worse violence than there is now.:

I'm not saying that prisons shouldn't be regulated, and I'm not advocating the abolishion of gun control. I am simply pointing out that attempting to change people's behavior through external means is futile.

A gun has only one utility, deadly force.:

No, the VAST majority of firearms are used for target practice. In other words, as a past-time.

I think by owning a gun, you are expressing an intention to use such force, which I think should be criminal, yes.:

So you would therefore seek to remove guns from police and military?

The UK has it's own problems with guns, but thankfully, it is confined mostly to (semi) organised criminal feuds. Home-owners don't get shot in burglaries in England, because burglars have no reason to carry guns.:

Total pacifism is the best way to ensure total bloodshed. As far as I'm concerned, you're complicity makes you a co-conspirator in the increase of crime.

When innocent people are caught up in gun violence in this country, it is most often crazy dudes with legally owned guns doing the shooting.:

Most often??? Please substantiate your claim.

Cars can be deadly if misused sure, but guns are designed with the sole purpose of being deadly, there is a big difference.:

How is there any difference? The fact of the matter is that cars kill more people, by leaps and bounds, than guns. Please explain how purpose and intent trumps actual results in deaths?
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 8:19:58 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 7:56:07 AM, badger wrote:
'tis funny the way those with guns are arguing for them and those without are arguing against them.:

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, if you don't like guns, don't own one.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
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8/13/2010 8:25:44 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 8:19:58 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
At 8/13/2010 7:56:07 AM, badger wrote:
'tis funny the way those with guns are arguing for them and those without are arguing against them.:

Yeah, as far as I'm concerned, if you don't like guns, don't own one.

but let other people own them? which would probably be the reason you don't like guns in the first place..
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Prox
Posts: 128
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8/13/2010 8:34:00 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 7:48:34 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
At 8/13/2010 7:39:17 AM, Prox wrote:
At 8/13/2010 5:57:05 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
Here in the UK, ordinary citizens are not permitted to keep firearms, for obvious reasons (just look to the US to see what could go wrong if they were!).

However, a householder is allowed to use reasonable force to defend himself or his family.

The amount of violence used has to be in direct proportion to the threat. For example, you couldn't stab a burglar to death just because he happened to be in your house -he'd have to be threatening your life somehow.

I think this law strikes the correct balance - otherwise people could end up being killed for just for trespassing: which is a crime, but not one punishable by death.

How do people hunt and stuff? Or defend themselves?

Hunting? Britain is not that backward - we are not a nation of hunter-gatherers and have been buying meat and vegetables from shops and markets for well over a thousand years now!

Defending oneself? I usually use my fists, but it is really the job of the police to intervene if someone is attacked.

You trust the police far too much. And their ability to keep the bad guys from getting guns.
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 8:37:56 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
but let other people own them? which would probably be the reason you don't like guns in the first place..:

Whomever wants to own a gun that has not committed a violent felony should own one if they'd like to exercise their Constitutional right.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
PARADIGM_L0ST
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8/13/2010 8:38:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
You trust the police far too much. And their ability to keep the bad guys from getting guns.:

And BINGO was his name-o.
"Have you ever considered suicide? If not, please do." -- Mouthwash (to Inferno)
badger
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8/13/2010 8:42:12 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/13/2010 8:37:56 AM, PARADIGM_L0ST wrote:
but let other people own them? which would probably be the reason you don't like guns in the first place..:

Whomever wants to own a gun that has not committed a violent felony should own one if they'd like to exercise their Constitutional right.

how come i don't have the right to drive at 150mph?
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