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What's your idea of an ideal prison system?

BblackkBbirdd
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6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.

Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?
Rubikx
Posts: 226
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6/20/2015 9:39:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM, BblackkBbirdd wrote:
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.


Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?

I don't know about ideal, but I know one of the major problems is overcrowding. I think the solution to this would be the death penalty for anyone who has a sentence that is longer then their life span. For example, if a person is 30 years old and gets a 80 year sentence then they should just be executed rather than wasting the rest of their life (and they money to keep them alive in contained) in prison. I know people will argue with me, but I think it would at least reduce the issue.
ironslippers
Posts: 511
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6/21/2015 1:09:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM, BblackkBbirdd wrote:
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.


Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?

The ideal would be a prison that is tailored to the offender. There are criminals that are animals and other that are merely humans who've lost their way.

The US system could definitely be better but it could be so much worse.

Problem is the "for profit" prison system by nature will cut expenditures and other means to maximize profits, equating the prison population to dollars and cents.

Next problem is the number of prisoners with psychological deficiencies being combined with prison population for inability to survive in general population. This a result of the closing of many state run mental hospitals in the 1960s and 70s.

The drug war and the three strikes rule also displaced many people into the prison population (the in-justice system deserves it own post).

Interesting note is the yearly cost to incarcerate which I believe is any where from 24,000 - 200,000 per yr per inmate making the offender worth more to the GDP than if the inmate had been working for minimum wage.

The State vs Federal: It is said among many criminals that it is better to be caught doing a federal crime than state crime. This is because federal prison is less violent, less crowded and more liberties. I have a friend who did time on a federal charge who said his cell was more like a single room apartment, there wasn't even a fence. Many state prisons allow for a merits to extend liberties TVs, phones books musical instruments etc. Some countries might require from family payments for privileges. Many towns will have a number of different prisons in the same area eg Canon City Colorado. Not all prisons are the Rykers Island or Chino as portrayed in the media.

I've heard it said the US has more prison inmates per capita than any other country, but then again some countries just kill criminals.

Everyone stands on their own dung hill and speaks out about someone else's - Nathan Krusemark
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
Posts: 2,710
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6/21/2015 1:22:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM, BblackkBbirdd wrote:
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.


Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?

I haven't read much about prisons, but if this kind of prison system does lead to a low recidivism rate, then I'm all for it.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Vox_Veritas
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6/22/2015 11:05:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A combination of punishment and rehabilitation.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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6/22/2015 11:14:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM, BblackkBbirdd wrote:
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.


Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?

Norway's prison system has an extremely high reoffending rate for the most violent offenders.

Extremely long prison rates, have conclusively shown to reduce the reoffending of violent criminals. I'd like to see Judicial corporal punishment implemented to cut back on people getting sentences, which help contribute to a cycle of poverty and violence. I'd like to see drugs, completely legalized so that more people don't have to enter the system, and it will free up the courts and give us a more just and fair trial system.

I'd like to see more cases go to trial. It's ridiculous that poor people are basically coerced into pleading guilty, so they can get back to work sooner and feed their children. I'd like to see more of an attempt at community policing, something beyond lip service or stupid programs that make a mockery of community policing such as DARE.

I'd like to give police departments more discretion on what 9-11 calls to actually respond to. I think police on demand system, has caused them to pull people from real police work to investigate fireworks calls or other stupid things.

I'd like to see a civilian review board to deal with police brutality cases, instead or in coordination with internal affairs.
Conservative12
Posts: 35
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7/5/2015 6:50:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
my idea prison system would be one that does not consume billions of dollars a year.

It would be instead one that evaluates the threat that individuals pose to society and their cost a year in supporting or jailing them. If it was deemed that an individual posed a great threat to society and that the return would not be greater than the input then the individual should be disposed of. It would more be like a harsh work camp the idea is that these people have reject society so we should reject them and put them to good use instead of us paying for them.
JernHenrik
Posts: 65
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7/6/2015 9:11:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/5/2015 6:50:18 PM, Conservative12 wrote:
my idea prison system would be one that does not consume billions of dollars a year.


I would like too add:
Also punishment of prisoners, including physical punishment, should always be allowed.
Conservative12
Posts: 35
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7/6/2015 9:35:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/6/2015 9:11:12 PM, JernHenrik wrote:
At 7/5/2015 6:50:18 PM, Conservative12 wrote:
my idea prison system would be one that does not consume billions of dollars a year.


I would like too add:
Also punishment of prisoners, including physical punishment, should always be allowed.

Why torture them if you could just kill em
SamStevens
Posts: 3,819
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7/6/2015 10:25:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/20/2015 7:46:10 PM, BblackkBbirdd wrote:
It's probably not news to you that the general consensus is that the American Prison System (and many others across the world) is flawed.
But what exactly is a good prison system?

I just read some articles about Norway's prison system, mainly about Halden and Bastoy open-system prisons, where inmates get flat screen TVs, get to walk around and education courses and nice stuff like that!
Norway has a extremely low re-offending rates when compared to other countries (20% when compared to America's 76%), and it's believed that the act of taking the freedom of inmates in punishment enough.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk...
https://www.youtube.com...
As you can see from the comments sections of these websites, people either praise Norway's system of object to it for not being harsh enough, which illustrates how the different ideas on the purpose of the prison system effect what people think that prisons should be like.


Anyway, what do you lovely people think the 'ideal' prison system is?

For me, it would depend on the criminal. For light offenders, and etc, it would follow suit after Norway.

For criminals who will not change and regularly engage in drugs, prison fights, etc, the following will be the ideal prison type. Only a certain part of the prison will house these criminals and will feature:

- A room with a bed, low quality pillow.
- Sink with unlimited water.
- Shower facility which is to be used one a day.
- Toilet facility used once every hour.
- 3 inch window to view prison yard.
- Sound proof walls and door to limit human interaction.

No personal possessions are allowed. They will be kept until the sentence is over. If contribution is found, an additional 6 months is added to their sentence.

If an inmate decides to assault staff, the staff will utilize a taser gun on them. Staff will also be armed with a night stick and mace. Inmates to act unruly will have a mesh bag placed over their head to avoid them from spitting. They will be strapped down to a chair.

After an unruly episode, they will have an additional year added to their sentence. That year will be spent in a sound proof room lit via candle and a small light by the toilet and sink. Food and water will be given to them.

Extra features:

Will have 2 fences/barriers in total.
- First is an electrocuted fence.
- Second is a standard prison fence laced with barbed. wire[http://mediad.publicbroadcasting.net...]

Both fences will be patrolled by a team of prison guards with pistols. They will be allied with the Caucasian Shepard, a breed used in Russian prisons and also is used to help in hunting bears. If the prisoner runs, the dog will give chase.

Possible option: If a population of Siberian Tigers are tamed, an individual tiger will be stationed in a cage outside of the prison. The tiger will be given enough food to stay a healthy weight, but not enough to ruin its appetite. If a person escapes, a tiger will be let loose to give chase.
---

There will be several internal guard posts over looking prison yards. The prison yards themselves will be segregated by race and gang to avoid conflict. Guard posts will be armed with flash bang grenades which will be fired via a low velocity gun. If conflict erupts, these grenades will be used. If the fighting intensifies, the guard posts will utilize a mini gun with rubber bullets to assault, beat down, and discourage prisoners from fighting. If fighting continues, guard posts will use a sniper to take out person(s) of interest.
"This is the true horror of religion. It allows perfectly decent and sane people to believe by the billions, what only lunatics could believe on their own." Sam Harris
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Death responded: "Because you are a beautiful lie, and I am the painful truth."
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 4:08:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is a pretty easy solution to come to when you are considering it with emotions detached, regardless of which direction the come from.

Prison is first and foremost internment. Not punishment, nor rehabilitation. The first thing a prison needs to cover is actually securing its prisoners, so that they are isolatd from society in order to protect.

Next, sadly, should be punishment. Unfortunately we need a reason for prison time to be a sentence you want to avoid, rather than having everything cared for you. While I respect Norway and Scandinavia, they go to far in the opposite extreme. Now by "punishment" I do not mean torture, beatings, starvation etc. I mean making it not a fun time. The deprivation of liberties, such as privacy, the freedom of movement, deprived entertainment, and poor tasting (but nutritious) food is punishment enough to make one want to avoid.

Then comes rehabilitation. If we don't focus on this, as any western society should, we may as well lock up all felons for life, since recidivism is so high. Career programs, a stricter policy on background checks, educational opportunities etc. should all be included.

The US does 1 and 2, but not 3, which is why so many criminals turn back to crime. When your life is either working at McDonalds or peddling drugs again, people get desperate.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 4:08:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/24/2015 2:34:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I'd like to see alternative punishments in lieu of jail penalties, such as public canings like Singapore.

You aren't much of a libertarian, are you?
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,251
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7/7/2015 9:44:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:08:49 AM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 6/24/2015 2:34:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I'd like to see alternative punishments in lieu of jail penalties, such as public canings like Singapore.

You aren't much of a libertarian, are you?

Right because 4 walls is much more free than quick recalibrations.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 3:13:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 9:44:15 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:08:49 AM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 6/24/2015 2:34:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I'd like to see alternative punishments in lieu of jail penalties, such as public canings like Singapore.

You aren't much of a libertarian, are you?

Right because 4 walls is much more free than quick recalibrations.
These punishments are never made by themselves, they are made in conjunction with prison time.
Greyparrot
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7/7/2015 4:15:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 3:13:14 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 9:44:15 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:08:49 AM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 6/24/2015 2:34:49 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
I'd like to see alternative punishments in lieu of jail penalties, such as public canings like Singapore.

You aren't much of a libertarian, are you?

Right because 4 walls is much more free than quick recalibrations.
These punishments are never made by themselves, they are made in conjunction with prison time.

Anarchists who trample the freedoms of others still deserve to be offered an option to be caned. At least we can give them an option that they otherwise wouldn't give to their victims. Liberty for anarchists if you will.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 4:19:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:15:56 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

Anarchists who trample the freedoms of others still deserve to be offered an option to be caned.
Their not anarchists. Humans are inherently opportunistic, criminals are just opportunists who failed at committing a crime. I'm sure they believe in rules that benefit them. As a libertarian I'm sure you've used that argument against leftists before.
At least we can give them an option that they otherwise wouldn't give to their victims. Liberty for anarchists if you will.
So you want to give them the option? Where they can be caned or jailed?
TheOpinionist
Posts: 31
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7/7/2015 4:21:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Depends on what kind of criminals each prison holds. Petty thieves and 1st-2nd time DUI offenders shouldn't be treated like armed robbers and murderers.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 4:25:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:21:36 PM, TheOpinionist wrote:
Depends on what kind of criminals each prison holds. Petty thieves and 1st-2nd time DUI offenders shouldn't be treated like armed robbers and murderers.

The only difference of treatment needed is increased security and length of time served. Background checks too, I suppose.
TheOpinionist
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7/7/2015 4:27:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:25:59 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:21:36 PM, TheOpinionist wrote:
Depends on what kind of criminals each prison holds. Petty thieves and 1st-2nd time DUI offenders shouldn't be treated like armed robbers and murderers.

The only difference of treatment needed is increased security and length of time served. Background checks too, I suppose.

Yeah that's pretty much all the difference I would allow
Greyparrot
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7/7/2015 4:47:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:19:51 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:15:56 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

I'm sure they believe in rules that benefit them.

I'm sure they don't.
anonymouse
Posts: 52
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7/7/2015 4:58:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
A prison system where the death penalty kills all murderers. All foreign terrorists detained do not deserve any of the constitutional rights.
TN05
Posts: 4,492
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7/7/2015 5:09:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The point of jail is to jointly administer justice and to rehabilitate. The Norwegian system fails in that regard because one does not really lose much by being in jail. It is hardly a punishment, and thus hardly just.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 5:28:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 5:09:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
The point of jail is to jointly administer justice and to rehabilitate. The Norwegian system fails in that regard because one does not really lose much by being in jail. It is hardly a punishment, and thus hardly just.

Justice is not and has never been the real point of a prison system. Justice is an undefinable value that means different things to different people. Despite being called the "justice" system it operate only by one value of justice, something I'm sure you disagree with in parts.

Prison is meant first and foremost as internment from society to limit harm the individual may enact on said society. Punishment needs only act as a deterrent, not to meter out justice which is more than often not petty revenge.

The Norwegian system is too much the opposite extreme, but it's clearly better than the US system when you look at recidivism rates.
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 5:29:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 4:47:10 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:19:51 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:15:56 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

I'm sure they believe in rules that benefit them.

I'm sure they don't.

Then explain the existence of rigidly rule bound criminal societies, like the Yakuza.
TN05
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7/7/2015 5:57:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 5:28:12 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 5:09:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
The point of jail is to jointly administer justice and to rehabilitate. The Norwegian system fails in that regard because one does not really lose much by being in jail. It is hardly a punishment, and thus hardly just.

Justice is not and has never been the real point of a prison system. Justice is an undefinable value that means different things to different people. Despite being called the "justice" system it operate only by one value of justice, something I'm sure you disagree with in parts.

Prison is meant first and foremost as internment from society to limit harm the individual may enact on said society. Punishment needs only act as a deterrent, not to meter out justice which is more than often not petty revenge.

The Norwegian system is too much the opposite extreme, but it's clearly better than the US system when you look at recidivism rates.

Is it just to sentence someone who killed 77 people to 21 years in jail with possibility of parole?
DutifulCynic
Posts: 46
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7/7/2015 5:58:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 5:57:04 PM, TN05 wrote:
At 7/7/2015 5:28:12 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 5:09:56 PM, TN05 wrote:
The point of jail is to jointly administer justice and to rehabilitate. The Norwegian system fails in that regard because one does not really lose much by being in jail. It is hardly a punishment, and thus hardly just.

Justice is not and has never been the real point of a prison system. Justice is an undefinable value that means different things to different people. Despite being called the "justice" system it operate only by one value of justice, something I'm sure you disagree with in parts.

Prison is meant first and foremost as internment from society to limit harm the individual may enact on said society. Punishment needs only act as a deterrent, not to meter out justice which is more than often not petty revenge.

The Norwegian system is too much the opposite extreme, but it's clearly better than the US system when you look at recidivism rates.

Is it just to sentence someone who killed 77 people to 21 years in jail with possibility of parole?
I mean, I just said the prison system isn't about justice.
Greyparrot
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7/7/2015 6:06:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/7/2015 5:29:13 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:47:10 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:19:51 PM, DutifulCynic wrote:
At 7/7/2015 4:15:56 PM, Greyparrot wrote:

I'm sure they believe in rules that benefit them.

I'm sure they don't.

Then explain the existence of rigidly rule bound criminal societies, like the Yakuza.

Organized crime isn't nearly as organized as you think. The only rule, if you want to call it that, that trumps any rule for the criminal even an "organized" criminal is "who ever has the bigger gun pointed at you makes the rules."

Yakuza has just as many turf wars in Japan as the mafia did in the US. There are no mutually agreed on rules between factions, even if a mouth piece says there are, the actions and resulting wars say different.