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Same sex incestuous marriage

Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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6/28/2015 9:07:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM, Burzmali wrote:
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.

," I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners."

Hey wait I was assured we wouldn't go down this "slippery slope"
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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6/28/2015 11:54:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 9:07:16 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM, Burzmali wrote:
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.

," I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners."


Hey wait I was assured we wouldn't go down this "slippery slope"

What slippery slope?
xXCryptoXx
Posts: 5,000
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6/28/2015 12:04:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM, Burzmali wrote:
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.

None of that matters. All people have the right to marriage, regardless of what may be associated with the relationship. Accidental properties associated with certain relationships are not enough justification to deny someone their rights.

For example, let's say that homosexual relationships have a higher rate of STDs than do heterosexual relationships. It wouldn't be right to deny homosexuals the right to marry on the basis that they have a higher rate of STDs, because that is not enough justification (and certainly there should never be any justification) to deny someone their rights.
Nolite Timere
sadolite
Posts: 8,836
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6/28/2015 12:41:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 11:54:19 AM, Burzmali wrote:
At 6/28/2015 9:07:16 AM, sadolite wrote:
At 6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM, Burzmali wrote:
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.

," I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners."


Hey wait I was assured we wouldn't go down this "slippery slope"

What slippery slope?

LOL
It's not your views that divide us, it's what you think my views should be that divides us.

If you think I will give up my rights and forsake social etiquette to make you "FEEL" better you are sadly mistaken

If liberal democrats would just stop shooting people gun violence would drop by 90%
TruthS4yer
Posts: 55
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6/28/2015 1:40:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships?
I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.
Burzmali's post mirrored my view perfectly. The key issue with incest is the risk of coercion throughout childhood. Eliminate that possibility and there is no legitimate moral objection. There is of course plenty of stigma promulgated by the unscrupulous masses, who's morality is nothing more than a reflection of whatever arbitrarily happens to be culturally acceptable/prohibited.

Anybody who was trying to imply a slippery slope argument against same-sex marriage, here is a fully cited response:
http://homoresponse.blogspot.co.uk...

Anybody who was attempting to use an STI burden argument against same-sex marriage, here are a number of different types of response (take your pic):
http://homoresponse.blogspot.co.uk...
http://homoresponse.blogspot.com...
http://homoresponse.blogspot.co.uk...
Please avoid quoting all of large posts - it needlessly means we have to scroll through them to navigate a thread.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/28/2015 1:46:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Erm, this thread has very little to do with the same sex marriage debate. We are assuming the premise of same sex marriage permissibility for this thread.
Mhykiel
Posts: 5,987
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6/28/2015 2:06:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

My biggest concern is that a parent would raise a sexual partner. To have that much control over the development of an individual could it really be consent?

We already see incestuous relationships develop where the child is completely consensual in the attention of the elder.

My hesitation for sibling on sibling or child parent sexual relationships is my same as military fraternization of private and supervisor or boss and employee.
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/28/2015 2:25:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:06:12 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

My biggest concern is that a parent would raise a sexual partner. To have that much control over the development of an individual could it really be consent?

This is a legitimate concern, but then such a prohibition would be based only on pragmatic considerations, rather than anything being wrong with the relationship itself. It makes less sense when you have two siblings of similar age, and where there is demonstrably late development of sexual attraction, since all these same concerns also apply equally to non-incestuous relationships - which can and does happen (child trafficking, arranged marriages, etc. especially in non-Westernised countries).

We already see incestuous relationships develop where the child is completely consensual in the attention of the elder.

My hesitation for sibling on sibling or child parent sexual relationships is my same as military fraternization of private and supervisor or boss and employee.

What about separated siblings, such as is the famous case study in Germany, cases of "accidental incest", etc. Here there is no scope for coersion.
Mhykiel
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6/28/2015 2:33:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 2:25:04 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/28/2015 2:06:12 PM, Mhykiel wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

My biggest concern is that a parent would raise a sexual partner. To have that much control over the development of an individual could it really be consent?

This is a legitimate concern, but then such a prohibition would be based only on pragmatic considerations, rather than anything being wrong with the relationship itself. It makes less sense when you have two siblings of similar age, and where there is demonstrably late development of sexual attraction, since all these same concerns also apply equally to non-incestuous relationships - which can and does happen (child trafficking, arranged marriages, etc. especially in non-Westernised countries).

Laws are made on pragmatic reasoning. If the end-state of a relationship would be too difficult to discern whether it was achieved through un-ethical manipulation or as a convergence of natural independent thought, then law makers err on the side of prudence.


We already see incestuous relationships develop where the child is completely consensual in the attention of the elder.

My hesitation for sibling on sibling or child parent sexual relationships is my same as military fraternization of private and supervisor or boss and employee.

What about separated siblings, such as is the famous case study in Germany, cases of "accidental incest", etc. Here there is no scope for coersion.

The complete lack of knowledge on the participates genetic relation makes it happen stance. I wouldn't see anything wrong with those two hooking up.

I don't think laws should be made because in the amazingly rare case, less than 1% of all cases, The foul play is incidental.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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6/28/2015 9:53:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/28/2015 12:04:15 PM, xXCryptoXx wrote:
At 6/27/2015 8:36:40 PM, Burzmali wrote:
There's potential abuse of the power imbalance in the relationship. A parent may raise and groom a child for the incestuous relationship. Like a prisoner can't consent to sex with a guard, it's reasonable to expect there are similar problems with a child consenting to sex with a parent. There are similar problems with incest between siblings, especially when the age gap is wide. Lena Dunham, for instance, coerced her sister into allowing Lena to molest her when they were kids. At that age, it was probably more curiosity than anything. But if they were now in a sexual relationship as adults, it would be hard to dismiss the idea that Lena had guided her sister into it over the years that they grew up.

As far as blood-related people discovering each other as adults, without having grown up together, I'm fine with that for same- and opposite-sex partners.

None of that matters. All people have the right to marriage, regardless of what may be associated with the relationship. Accidental properties associated with certain relationships are not enough justification to deny someone their rights.

For example, let's say that homosexual relationships have a higher rate of STDs than do heterosexual relationships. It wouldn't be right to deny homosexuals the right to marry on the basis that they have a higher rate of STDs, because that is not enough justification (and certainly there should never be any justification) to deny someone their rights.

That's not completely true. To go back to the prison analogy, a guard can't marry a prisoner because of the power imbalance inherent to the relationship. A similar imbalance is inherent to incestuous relationships where at least one of the individuals was a child raised with or by the other.
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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6/29/2015 12:19:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here

As much as I respect your insights on some issues, you don't get to disregard a criticism because you simply do not like it.

The fact is that humans cross-breed to get stronger offspring. Inbreeding, the kinds you're suggesting results in all sorts of health problems, disorders, etc...
Thank you for voting!
TheHitchslap
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6/29/2015 12:20:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

Wait, I just saw it was "same sex incest"

ma bad lol.
Thank you for voting!
Fly
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6/29/2015 1:07:47 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

In addition to the coercion concern that has already been posited, I would add that this would have society affording a special privilege to a select group.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Envisage
Posts: 3,646
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6/29/2015 1:09:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 12:19:15 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here

As much as I respect your insights on some issues, you don't get to disregard a criticism because you simply do not like it.

The fact is that humans cross-breed to get stronger offspring. Inbreeding, the kinds you're suggesting results in all sorts of health problems, disorders, etc...

How does that apply to same sex incestuous marriage?
TheHitchslap
Posts: 1,231
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6/29/2015 8:55:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/29/2015 1:09:33 PM, Envisage wrote:
At 6/29/2015 12:19:15 PM, TheHitchslap wrote:
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here

As much as I respect your insights on some issues, you don't get to disregard a criticism because you simply do not like it.

The fact is that humans cross-breed to get stronger offspring. Inbreeding, the kinds you're suggesting results in all sorts of health problems, disorders, etc...

How does that apply to same sex incestuous marriage?

It doesn't.

I posted earlier. I saw you made the scope of this to "same sex incest", I thought it was just incest.

So, my apologies for not reading carefully enough.
Thank you for voting!
Otokage
Posts: 2,347
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7/5/2015 1:42:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

I'm not sure if being both brother and husband of someone would create some kind of legal problem, as a fiscal incompatibility or something like that. If so, that should be resolved before allowing marriage between siblings.
Conservative12
Posts: 35
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7/5/2015 5:29:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think someone already said this but these laws are in place to prevent someone from breeding a human just for sexual purposes. It is all part of greed and humans will never be free from greed until we can pry it out of our heads with a chisel.

Humans are not truly free because we will abuse these rules. This is an example of something that causes more harm then good. Morals are an issue too but those things are like running in a circle, you get nowhere fast and there are arguments before and against.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/5/2015 7:52:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 6/27/2015 6:21:57 PM, Envisage wrote:
Why should we prohibit these relationships? None of the biological harm arguments apply here, and accepting the premise of same sex marriage gives very little else to argue against such a relationship.

I see no reason why we should prohibit it - let's see what you guys can throw at it.

There aren't any reasons. There was actually a recent court case where the judge brought up the fact that marriage between cousins beyond the age of feasible childbirth was already legal in that state when the anti-SSM side tried to go with the reproduction argument (that marriage is about childbearing). It was a really funny moment, but it drives home that point that there are already laws on the books, at least in some states, to make laws against incest dependent on the capacity for reproduction, which obviously doesn't apply to homosexuals. These sort of laws also make slippery slope arguers look really uninformed, lol. It turns out that the terrible consequences which they are predicting have, unbeknownst to them, already come to pass.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
HelloPlants
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7/27/2015 4:04:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I see no issue, as long as both parties are consenting adults.

This also applies in the case of a child being groomed to be a sexual partner. While this is horrible, once the child is an adult they should be able to consent to sex with their parent, unless their mental state prevents them from consenting. You could argue that a child groomed in this way is not mentally competent to consent to any sex, which would make the relationship illegal. Any sexual situations before the child is 18 would still be illegal.

...If someone wants to raise their child as a sex partner, they don't need it to be legal to do it. An undocumented (or even just homeschooled) child could be cut off from the outside world and once the child is 18, just pretend you guys aren't related. Specifically in the case of same-sex parent-child duos, I think you have a much higher chance of an opposite-sex pair doing this illegally.

Same logic goes for sibling pairs. A childhood friend could "abuse" you in the same way a sibling could. As long as both parties consent and nothing statutory happens.