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Why miscarriage is not a tragedy

dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 1:34:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Birth is one of those sacred topics over which rational discussion is nearly impossible. I think yesterday's events confirm that beyond any shadow of a doubt. Rather then treating it like they would any other issue, many are content to lash at out at, and demonize, those who don't accept their questionable assumptions. They are quick to label anyone who tries to bring reason into the conversation as "callous", "morally deranged" and "cruel", and to react with righteous indignation at any voice daring to question the prevailing attitudes. The moral confusion, however, is all theirs. Intellectual laziness is no excuse for the petulant worship of brainlessness we witnessed yesterday. People have a right to be angry (as I was) when they have good reason to believe someone's actions will cause unnecessary suffering.

To begin with, we must dispense with the absurd notion that breeding is a right, and that anyone who rejects this is equivalent to Hitler. Reproduction inevitably imposes restrictions (sometimes very negative ones) on the life of the child and society as a whole. It is, therefore, a privilege, which should be granted only in cases where it's not likely to damage society. In forcing someone to exist, as in the case of birth, one has the moral obligation to ensure that their life won't be needlessly impeded nor impede the lives of others. Indeed, I think we can all agree that's what we would want for ourselves. I therefore so no rational basis for denying this right to the unborn. We should try our best to create the most favorable conditions we can (within reasonable limits) for the people we are forcing to enter the world. To avoid doing so out of respect for the supposed "right" of the mother to breed as she wishes is near-sighted and heartless.

Secondly, we should acknowledge that so long as we treat abortion as a "right", we must regard the fetus as an amoral collection of cells with no claim to personhood. Viewed in these terms, miscarriage is thus at worst a mere disappointment and inconvenience, tantamount to a physical injury. To regard it as a tragedy is to elevate the moral status of a fetus beyond what is justifiable, and thus to create, out of thin air, a tragedy which doesn't even exist. If the woman really wants to have a child, she can simply have another. Or, if that's no longer possible, she can adopt. But to talk about it is as though it were a tragic death is to reinforce and encourage irrational and unnecessary despair on the part of the mother and father. The dead fetus/baby had no more to lose than it did when it was merely a separated sperm and egg. As tempting as it may seem, treating something which looks like a human, but which lacks any awareness or values, is to forget the reason we treat people as we do in the first place.

I realize that there are some who, no matter what I say, will always regard my views on this issue (and perhaps even me) as despicable. I don't know how to respond to such a judgement, except to say that I am not motivated by hate, but rather, by an incredible irritation at the idea that needless suffering is allowed to exist, and is even being praised by otherwise moral people. Some of my comments were far too harsh, and I regret saying them. I sent an apology to Marie, and hope that she will someday forgive me. I don't, however, regret expressing my basic message.
dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 1:40:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
* As tempting as it may seem, treating something which looks like a human, but which lacks any awareness or values, as a human is to forget the reason we treat people as we do in the first place.
Sharku
Posts: 96
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7/2/2015 1:54:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
As much as you would like it to be so, you cannot divorce parenthood from emotion. Nor should it be. Imagine having a parent that went strictly on logic with no emotion. The child's personal developmental and emotional needs would not be met and they would turn out to be a dysfunctional human being. Every human needs to feel loved, cared for, and secure, and emotions are part of that.

Emotions do not equal weakness and using them to make a major decision is what makes us human. You can't life your life strictly on logic, or you won't be meeting your own emotional needs, which are just as important as any other part of yourself.

Now that's been established, parenthood is a very emotional thing for most people. If you want to go on logic, biology wires us to care for our offspring and feel distressed when their needs aren't met. It's how the human race has survived. Otherwise, we'd all be ditching our babies that were inhibiting our movement and endangering us to predators. There is no logic in keeping around a helpless creature that only makes demands. It gives no input or feedback for the first three months, so there is no logical reason to love it. Yet, every (good) parent inexplicably does.

So, it stands to reason that a miscarriage is a tragedy based on the parent's view and expectations of the fetus. Just like an infant death is a tragedy based on the parent's views and expectations of the baby.

Logically it wouldn't be a tragedy if your mother (or someone close to you) died tomorrow. There are billions of humans on the planet and there would be no deficit in the population. You'd still be upset about it though. That's the point.
dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 2:02:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 1:54:09 PM, Sharku wrote:
As much as you would like it to be so, you cannot divorce parenthood from emotion. Nor should it be. Imagine having a parent that went strictly on logic with no emotion. The child's personal developmental and emotional needs would not be met and they would turn out to be a dysfunctional human being. Every human needs to feel loved, cared for, and secure, and emotions are part of that.

Emotions do not equal weakness and using them to make a major decision is what makes us human. You can't life your life strictly on logic, or you won't be meeting your own emotional needs, which are just as important as any other part of yourself.

Now that's been established, parenthood is a very emotional thing for most people. If you want to go on logic, biology wires us to care for our offspring and feel distressed when their needs aren't met. It's how the human race has survived. Otherwise, we'd all be ditching our babies that were inhibiting our movement and endangering us to predators. There is no logic in keeping around a helpless creature that only makes demands. It gives no input or feedback for the first three months, so there is no logical reason to love it. Yet, every (good) parent inexplicably does.

So, it stands to reason that a miscarriage is a tragedy based on the parent's view and expectations of the fetus. Just like an infant death is a tragedy based on the parent's views and expectations of the baby.

Logically it wouldn't be a tragedy if your mother (or someone close to you) died tomorrow. There are billions of humans on the planet and there would be no deficit in the population. You'd still be upset about it though. That's the point.

I agree that emotion is crucial when it comes to childrearing. However, that doesn't mean we should rely on emotion to make our decisions before the child even exists. There's absolutely zero benefit to doing that. It's perfectly alright to feel, but feelings should not direct our actions when it comes to decisions that will impact not only one's own life, but the life of the child as well. Sometimes what we feel is right is not actually right, and people need to realize this. There's no reason to think that our moral intuition is flawless or even close to being accurate.
Sharku
Posts: 96
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7/2/2015 2:10:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 2:02:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 1:54:09 PM, Sharku wrote:
As much as you would like it to be so, you cannot divorce parenthood from emotion. Nor should it be. Imagine having a parent that went strictly on logic with no emotion. The child's personal developmental and emotional needs would not be met and they would turn out to be a dysfunctional human being. Every human needs to feel loved, cared for, and secure, and emotions are part of that.

Emotions do not equal weakness and using them to make a major decision is what makes us human. You can't life your life strictly on logic, or you won't be meeting your own emotional needs, which are just as important as any other part of yourself.

Now that's been established, parenthood is a very emotional thing for most people. If you want to go on logic, biology wires us to care for our offspring and feel distressed when their needs aren't met. It's how the human race has survived. Otherwise, we'd all be ditching our babies that were inhibiting our movement and endangering us to predators. There is no logic in keeping around a helpless creature that only makes demands. It gives no input or feedback for the first three months, so there is no logical reason to love it. Yet, every (good) parent inexplicably does.

So, it stands to reason that a miscarriage is a tragedy based on the parent's view and expectations of the fetus. Just like an infant death is a tragedy based on the parent's views and expectations of the baby.

Logically it wouldn't be a tragedy if your mother (or someone close to you) died tomorrow. There are billions of humans on the planet and there would be no deficit in the population. You'd still be upset about it though. That's the point.

I agree that emotion is crucial when it comes to childrearing. However, that doesn't mean we should rely on emotion to make our decisions before the child even exists. There's absolutely zero benefit to doing that. It's perfectly alright to feel, but feelings should not direct our actions when it comes to decisions that will impact not only one's own life, but the life of the child as well. Sometimes what we feel is right is not actually right, and people need to realize this. There's no reason to think that our moral intuition is flawless or even close to being accurate.

Ah, but see what's right when it comes to having a child and parenting is very subjective. There is no hard line to measure against.

A person that decided to have a baby despite the odds, will have people agreeing she did the right thing. It will also have people agreeing she did the wrong thing.

If I put my child in timeout, I will get half the population saying I'm disciplining correctly, while the other half will be showing me how timeouts are actually harmful. Parenthood is an art form, not a science.

The point is, you have to make a personal decision about what's best for you and your family. A baby may not seem like it's the best when money is low, but money fluctuates through your career's lifetime. Additionally you could be fired from even a high paying job. Look at the housing bubble pop. Life is not guaranteed to stay the constant.

Therefore, choosing to have a baby has to be an emotional decision. You can't plan 18 years out. The world will change in ways you didn't expect, your job could change, your husband could die, there's lots of variables that can't be accounted for. Logically it's a HUGE risk, and not worth taking for anyone to have a baby. If we went on logic, no one would have a baby and the population would die off.

If a baby is an emotional decision, then a miscarriage is going to be an emotional event.
dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 2:20:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 2:10:49 PM, Sharku wrote:
At 7/2/2015 2:02:54 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 1:54:09 PM, Sharku wrote:
As much as you would like it to be so, you cannot divorce parenthood from emotion. Nor should it be. Imagine having a parent that went strictly on logic with no emotion. The child's personal developmental and emotional needs would not be met and they would turn out to be a dysfunctional human being. Every human needs to feel loved, cared for, and secure, and emotions are part of that.

Emotions do not equal weakness and using them to make a major decision is what makes us human. You can't life your life strictly on logic, or you won't be meeting your own emotional needs, which are just as important as any other part of yourself.

Now that's been established, parenthood is a very emotional thing for most people. If you want to go on logic, biology wires us to care for our offspring and feel distressed when their needs aren't met. It's how the human race has survived. Otherwise, we'd all be ditching our babies that were inhibiting our movement and endangering us to predators. There is no logic in keeping around a helpless creature that only makes demands. It gives no input or feedback for the first three months, so there is no logical reason to love it. Yet, every (good) parent inexplicably does.

So, it stands to reason that a miscarriage is a tragedy based on the parent's view and expectations of the fetus. Just like an infant death is a tragedy based on the parent's views and expectations of the baby.

Logically it wouldn't be a tragedy if your mother (or someone close to you) died tomorrow. There are billions of humans on the planet and there would be no deficit in the population. You'd still be upset about it though. That's the point.

I agree that emotion is crucial when it comes to childrearing. However, that doesn't mean we should rely on emotion to make our decisions before the child even exists. There's absolutely zero benefit to doing that. It's perfectly alright to feel, but feelings should not direct our actions when it comes to decisions that will impact not only one's own life, but the life of the child as well. Sometimes what we feel is right is not actually right, and people need to realize this. There's no reason to think that our moral intuition is flawless or even close to being accurate.

Ah, but see what's right when it comes to having a child and parenting is very subjective. There is no hard line to measure against.

A person that decided to have a baby despite the odds, will have people agreeing she did the right thing. It will also have people agreeing she did the wrong thing.

If I put my child in timeout, I will get half the population saying I'm disciplining correctly, while the other half will be showing me how timeouts are actually harmful. Parenthood is an art form, not a science.

The point is, you have to make a personal decision about what's best for you and your family. A baby may not seem like it's the best when money is low, but money fluctuates through your career's lifetime. Additionally you could be fired from even a high paying job. Look at the housing bubble pop. Life is not guaranteed to stay the constant.

Therefore, choosing to have a baby has to be an emotional decision. You can't plan 18 years out. The world will change in ways you didn't expect, your job could change, your husband could die, there's lots of variables that can't be accounted for. Logically it's a HUGE risk, and not worth taking for anyone to have a baby. If we went on logic, no one would have a baby and the population would die off.


For those prepared to handle it, parenthood can be very rewarding. The idea that it's always illogical to have children is thus nonsense. It's not illogical to do something that makes you happy so long as it's moral.

If a baby is an emotional decision, then a miscarriage is going to be an emotional event.
Sharku
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7/2/2015 2:27:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 2:20:38 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
For those prepared to handle it, parenthood can be very rewarding. The idea that it's always illogical to have children is thus nonsense. It's not illogical to do something that makes you happy so long as it's moral.

You could be prepared to handle it as a baby, and then unable to when they hit their teen years. Also, as a first time parent, no matter how ready you think you are, you aren't. There's no predictor for how you'll do until you have the baby resting in your arms. I never thought I'd be ready to be a parent, but that changed as soon as I held my daughter. You just find a way to make it work, and you won't understand how drastically your priorities suddenly shift until you're in the thick of it.

However, if we can agree that those ready for parenthood a child can be a rewarding and joyous thing. Can you not see that a miscarriage would then be a tragic thing if the parents were looking forward to it.

Imagine going on your dream vacation. You started planning, buying new outfits for the trip, you got your hopes up, and then suddenly, it was cancelled without reason or explanation. You got no closure, you're just not going on that awesome vacation you wanted. You would feel more than just disappointment.
Garbanza
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7/2/2015 3:56:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
For the millionth time. Roe vs Wade only establishes that a woman's management of her own body (abortion) is a PRIVATE MATTER. That means that women decide for themselves. You don't get to decide on the value of the foetus for them. They do. For many women, the foetus is their baby and they love it and feel protective towards it. There's an easy rule of thumb to tell which women do this - they tend to announce their pregnancies.

Second, to suggest that someone's child would be better off dead than alive in the sort of family environment that person would provide is just mean.

Thirdly, getting pregnant for the first time is terrifying and overwhelming. There's the emotional stuff and the physical stuff. People need support at that time. You talk about being "rational" as if you have some insight into reality, but you don't. You have no idea about the "suffering" that the baby may or may not cause.

Really. You need to stfu. I know you're a troll and love getting reactions from people, but this is really pathetic.
ShabShoral
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7/2/2015 4:03:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 3:56:13 PM, Garbanza wrote:
For the millionth time. Roe vs Wade only establishes that a woman's management of her own body (abortion) is a PRIVATE MATTER. That means that women decide for themselves. You don't get to decide on the value of the foetus for them. They do. For many women, the foetus is their baby and they love it and feel protective towards it. There's an easy rule of thumb to tell which women do this - they tend to announce their pregnancies.
The fetus is going to grow up to be a person who can suffer. It's not all about the mother - her actions have consequences.
Second, to suggest that someone's child would be better off dead than alive in the sort of family environment that person would provide is just mean.
"That's mean" isn't an argument. If you think he's wrong, actually give a reason why.
Thirdly, getting pregnant for the first time is terrifying and overwhelming. There's the emotional stuff and the physical stuff. People need support at that time. You talk about being "rational" as if you have some insight into reality, but you don't. You have no idea about the "suffering" that the baby may or may not cause.
Yes, because it's so hard to foresee exactly what will happen. No matter what you hope, reality will continue to prevail, and evading it is morally dishonest.
Really. You need to stfu. I know you're a troll and love getting random reactions from people, but this is really pathetic.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:08:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will always find yourself far from solving things in the end.

Fix'd.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:10:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
And really, making another thread about this was tasteless.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.
dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 4:19:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:10:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
And really, making another thread about this was tasteless.

Not really. I didn't get a chance to clarify because all the threads were deleted.
ShabShoral
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7/2/2015 4:20:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic.

And not everyone is right.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:21:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.

I don't think you understood a word I said. How pitiful.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:21:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:20:23 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic.

And not everyone is right.

Then you must be wrong sometimes.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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Garbanza
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7/2/2015 4:21:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:03:04 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 7/2/2015 3:56:13 PM, Garbanza wrote:
For the millionth time. Roe vs Wade only establishes that a woman's management of her own body (abortion) is a PRIVATE MATTER. That means that women decide for themselves. You don't get to decide on the value of the foetus for them. They do. For many women, the foetus is their baby and they love it and feel protective towards it. There's an easy rule of thumb to tell which women do this - they tend to announce their pregnancies.
The fetus is going to grow up to be a person who can suffer. It's not all about the mother - her actions have consequences.

Yes all fetuses grow up to be people who suffer. Not can suffer, but do suffer. That's part of the human condition.

Second, to suggest that someone's child would be better off dead than alive in the sort of family environment that person would provide is just mean.
"That's mean" isn't an argument. If you think he's wrong, actually give a reason why.

Marie is a good, kind and brave person, I think she'll be a good mother.

Thirdly, getting pregnant for the first time is terrifying and overwhelming. There's the emotional stuff and the physical stuff. People need support at that time. You talk about being "rational" as if you have some insight into reality, but you don't. You have no idea about the "suffering" that the baby may or may not cause.
Yes, because it's so hard to foresee exactly what will happen. No matter what you hope, reality will continue to prevail, and evading it is morally dishonest.

Exactly. It's SO HARD TO FORSEE EXACTLY WHAT WILL HAPPEN. This is not "reality", this is not knowing the future. So people aren't "evading reality" by having babies. You're not making sense. I'm assuming you're a dumb troll and I'm going to ignore you from now on unless you say something coherent.

Really. You need to stfu. I know you're a troll and love getting random reactions from people, but this is really pathetic.
ShabShoral
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7/2/2015 4:24:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:21:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:20:23 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic.

And not everyone is right.

Then you must be wrong sometimes.

Insofar as I adhere to logic I'm infallible.
"This site is trash as a debate site. It's club penguin for dysfunctional adults."

~ Skepsikyma <3

"Your idea of good writing is like Spinoza mixed with Heidegger."

~ Dylly Dylly Cat Cat

"You seem to aspire to be a cross between a Jewish hipster, an old school WASP aristocrat, and a political iconoclast"

~ Thett the Mighty

"fvck omg ur face"

~ Liz
dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 4:25:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:21:07 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.

I don't think you understood a word I said. How pitiful.

It's only devastating to a woman when she refuses to be rational, and gives in to her primal feelings. I feel sorry that she's unable to overcome them. That's it.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:25:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:21:42 PM, Garbanza wrote:
I'm assuming you're a dumb troll and I'm going to ignore you from now on unless you say something coherent.

They both very much believe what they're saying.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:27:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:25:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:07 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.

I don't think you understood a word I said. How pitiful.

It's only devastating to a woman when she refuses to be rational, and gives in to her primal feelings. I feel sorry that she's unable to overcome them. That's it.

You aren't in much of a position to speak on the matter.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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kasmic
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7/2/2015 4:30:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
To regard it as a tragedy is to elevate the moral status of a fetus beyond what is justifiable, and thus to create, out of thin air, a tragedy which doesn't even exist. If the woman really wants to have a child, she can simply have another. Or, if that's no longer possible, she can adopt.

Having experienced a miscarriage in my marriage I find your points to be woefully misguided. A miscarriage is physically painful, the pregnancy emotions are present so it is also emotionally and physiologically damaging. Don't forget the fact that those who have miscarriages often get Post partum depression. It was sad for me and my wife when she had a miscarriage, preparing mentally financially and physically to have a baby to then have a miscarriage creates a huge let down.

I realize that there are some who, no matter what I say, will always regard my views on this issue (and perhaps even me) as despicable. I don't know how to respond to such a judgement, except to say that I am not motivated by hate, but rather, by an incredible irritation at the idea that needless suffering is allowed to exist, and is even being praised by otherwise moral people. Some of my comments were far too harsh, and I regret saying them. I sent an apology to Marie, and hope that she will someday forgive me. I don't, however, regret expressing my basic message.

I do find your views ignorant... perhaps not despicable. Miscarriages are hard emotionally and physically. It may not be the equivalent of a new born dying or someone older, but that does not mean it is not a tragedy.
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1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:30:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:24:49 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:20:23 PM, ShabShoral wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic.

And not everyone is right.

Then you must be wrong sometimes.

Insofar as I adhere to logic I'm infallible.

How vain.

When you attempt to rely on solely logic to argue against psychology, I will always question your approach. It doesn't make you right, it makes you a fool. You do not understand how humans function. Humans are not robots, and they will never be.
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Garbanza
Posts: 1,997
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7/2/2015 4:31:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:25:17 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:42 PM, Garbanza wrote:
I'm assuming you're a dumb troll and I'm going to ignore you from now on unless you say something coherent.

They both very much believe what they're saying.

Nah. Neither of them is being rational and yet they're espousing rationality. They're trolling. Remember that time that dylancatlow pretended to be an angry woman?
1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:32:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:31:08 PM, Garbanza wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:25:17 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:42 PM, Garbanza wrote:
I'm assuming you're a dumb troll and I'm going to ignore you from now on unless you say something coherent.

They both very much believe what they're saying.

Nah. Neither of them is being rational and yet they're espousing rationality. They're trolling. Remember that time that dylancatlow pretended to be an angry woman?

They aren't trolling.

When I say bossy prays to Ayn Rand, I'm not joking.
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kasmic
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7/2/2015 4:33:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:10:21 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
And really, making another thread about this was tasteless.

+1
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dylancatlow
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7/2/2015 4:35:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:27:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:25:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:07 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.

I don't think you understood a word I said. How pitiful.

It's only devastating to a woman when she refuses to be rational, and gives in to her primal feelings. I feel sorry that she's unable to overcome them. That's it.

You aren't in much of a position to speak on the matter.

I don't need to be a woman to know that feelings are irrational, or that they can and should be overcome. Most people don't even attempt to deal with the despair by reasoning it away; to most people, the very thought of "dehumanizing" the fetus is repulsive, and they have no impetus to challenge the assumption. That needs to change.
1harderthanyouthink
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7/2/2015 4:39:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/2/2015 4:35:14 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:27:02 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:25:01 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:21:07 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:18:48 PM, dylancatlow wrote:
At 7/2/2015 4:08:09 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Not everyone prays to logic. So to you, it might not be a big deal, but it is devastating to a woman...so...you don't really have much to argue about there, because you don't know what you're talking about. You might think you solve emotions with logic, but you will find always yourself far from solving things in the end.

As I said before, I don't respect irrationality, especially not when it creates suffering. If that's a problem for you, then I suggest you don't waste your time talking to me, because that's a premise I'm not willing to compromise on.

I don't think you understood a word I said. How pitiful.

It's only devastating to a woman when she refuses to be rational, and gives in to her primal feelings. I feel sorry that she's unable to overcome them. That's it.

You aren't in much of a position to speak on the matter.

I don't need to be a woman to know that feelings are irrational, or that they can and should be overcome. Most people don't even attempt to deal with the despair by reasoning it away; to most people, the very thought of "dehumanizing" the fetus is repulsive, and they have no impetus to challenge the assumption. That needs to change.

It needs to change in your subjective view - hardly an argument when dealing with psychology: which is much more complex and harder to understand than you give it credit.
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