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Police Brutality

Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?
Berend
Posts: 188
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7/17/2015 3:27:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Yes it so obviously exist. However, unlike the mass protestors, it isn't strictly racist. One shouldn't see "he owns a confederate flag, therefor his actions were racist intended" or because we see a white cop hitting or killing a black man. More or less, it is crap training and people not fit for the job.

We need to fix the training program and not make the lethal weapon the first go to in cases you feel threatened. To not detain someone, throw them to the ground, search them, etc on the basis of them talking back to you. The job of the police officer is to keep the law in check and not have people break it. The fact you can be detained and thrown to the ground for telling the cop to f' off in itself shows how they over react.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/17/2015 4:30:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

There is nothing to discuss here. As the documented accounts and videos of police brutality are exhaustive. It happens every single day. Period. End of sentence.

Here are just a few examples. I can post more all day long if you need me to.

https://www.youtube.com...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.
My work here is, finally, done.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,926
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7/18/2015 12:54:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 3:27:40 PM, Berend wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Yes it so obviously exist. However, unlike the mass protestors, it isn't strictly racist.

Except for the fact that police brutality effects communities of color far more than it does white communities.

One shouldn't see "he owns a confederate flag, therefor his actions were racist intended" or because we see a white cop hitting or killing a black man. More or less, it is crap training and people not fit for the job.

We need to fix the training program and not make the lethal weapon the first go to in cases you feel threatened. To not detain someone, throw them to the ground, search them, etc on the basis of them talking back to you. The job of the police officer is to keep the law in check and not have people break it. The fact you can be detained and thrown to the ground for telling the cop to f' off in itself shows how they over react.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/18/2015 1:14:18 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.

He was under arrest, and resisted. You are proving my point. The situation was muddied, but he was resisting arrest, (in fact, nearly every death that is reported nationally of a black man is resisting arrest, not that that excuses the behavior, but that does mean that some force is required).
NYPD officers approached Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers went to arrest Garner.[4] When officer Daniel Pantaleo took Garner's wrist behind his back, Garner swatted his arms away.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org...

He resisted arrest, and as a result, force was authorized. The discussion needs to be had about how much is too much, and, to be honest, after pulling away and "swatting" the officer, being taken to the ground doesn't seem excessive to me.
What do you recommend the police have done to arrest a man who is taller and heavier? Without an answer, the charge of excessive force is moot, since there is no alternative given. (and don't say "not killed him" either)
My work here is, finally, done.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 1:18:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 1:22:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:14:18 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.

He was under arrest, and resisted. You are proving my point. The situation was muddied, but he was resisting arrest, (in fact, nearly every death that is reported nationally of a black man is resisting arrest, not that that excuses the behavior, but that does mean that some force is required).
NYPD officers approached Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers went to arrest Garner.[4] When officer Daniel Pantaleo took Garner's wrist behind his back, Garner swatted his arms away.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org...

He resisted arrest, and as a result, force was authorized. The discussion needs to be had about how much is too much, and, to be honest, after pulling away and "swatting" the officer, being taken to the ground doesn't seem excessive to me.
What do you recommend the police have done to arrest a man who is taller and heavier? Without an answer, the charge of excessive force is moot, since there is no alternative given. (and don't say "not killed him" either)

1: You say he resisted arrest, but you also fail to mention that he was being unlawfully arrested. The cops didn't bother to ask him any questions, they just went up to him and killed him.
2: Perhaps they could've, instead of jumping to conclusions, asked him or someone else what was going on. They were called in because of a fight. It wouldn't take much to find out that the fight was over.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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7/18/2015 1:32:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:22:17 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:14:18 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.

He was under arrest, and resisted. You are proving my point. The situation was muddied, but he was resisting arrest, (in fact, nearly every death that is reported nationally of a black man is resisting arrest, not that that excuses the behavior, but that does mean that some force is required).
NYPD officers approached Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers went to arrest Garner.[4] When officer Daniel Pantaleo took Garner's wrist behind his back, Garner swatted his arms away.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org...

He resisted arrest, and as a result, force was authorized. The discussion needs to be had about how much is too much, and, to be honest, after pulling away and "swatting" the officer, being taken to the ground doesn't seem excessive to me.
What do you recommend the police have done to arrest a man who is taller and heavier? Without an answer, the charge of excessive force is moot, since there is no alternative given. (and don't say "not killed him" either)

1: You say he resisted arrest, but you also fail to mention that he was being unlawfully arrested. The cops didn't bother to ask him any questions, they just went up to him and killed him.
He was asked about selling untaxed cigarettes, which had nothing to do with the fight, and then refused to answer, and was then arrested. Whether or not he was being unlawfully arrested, he was being arrested, and resisted, and, from the cop's point of view, force needed to be used. I have never heard anyone refute the legality of the arrest. Can you provide a source?

2: Perhaps they could've, instead of jumping to conclusions, asked him or someone else what was going on. They were called in because of a fight. It wouldn't take much to find out that the fight was over.
He was never suspected about the fight, he was asked about his previous criminal behavior - selling cigarettes.

Now, address the question: if someone is resisting arrest, do you agree that some force is allowed to be used? Is tackling someone who runs away excessive force? Is tasing them in order to arrest them?

This is exactly what I mean about the mentality of police brutality. You are outright refusing to see both sides, and refuse to address the cop's requirement to subdue the suspect if they are under arrest. So, how much force is too much?
My work here is, finally, done.
WAM
Posts: 139
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7/18/2015 1:45:55 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think the more important issue here to see is that when anybody does something that is considered 'immoral/bad' it gets attention, when it is 'good' nobody cares.

I know officers who are the nicest people, whether on or off duty and are extremely committed to what policing is actually about, the community. Do you think these officers ever get noticed publicly or much appreciated?
On the other hand I also know officers who are real tossers, and simply because of that get noticed a lot. However this exists everywhere.

The solution is not to be against the idea of policing, but the officers who are not committed to it, in my opinion however they should not even be officers.
Such
Posts: 1,110
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7/18/2015 2:19:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:32:00 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
from the cop's point of view, force needed to be used.

Here's where the problem begins.

So, how much force is too much?

And here's where the problem elevates.

There are clearly delineated levels of threat someone asserting the law must abide by in order to ensure problems like this don't arise. If a suspect is uncooperative, but isn't a threat, and isn't running, any elevated use of force is not authorized at all.

The use of deadly force is not authorized, but, what the cops did involved in the Eric Garner case was not technically deadly force. It was, however, not by standards, and it wasn't an authorized use of force -- choke holds and body slams, for example -- cops, just like military watch standers, are trained on how to apprehend people to ensure problems like this don't arise. Those cops, in how they handled things, were very unprofessional, and their lack of professionalism coupled with their excessive behavior resulted in someone's death. Sorry they didn't mean to kill anyone, but in their line of work, unprofessional, excessive behavior can result in death, and they need to be held responsible for that.

Seems like crystal clear water to me.
Berend
Posts: 188
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7/18/2015 2:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 12:54:43 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
Except for the fact that police brutality effects communities of color far more than it does white communities.

That doesn't warrant claiming the police who do go way over board do it strictly because they find blacks to be inferior. If anything, it would be a horrid stigma placed on the community by movies, past police reports, and so on. Obviously the cops do focus on the black community more, we all know that, but that doesn't mean the cop who shot the guy in the back eight times did it because he hates blacks and because he was racist to blacks. That is over stepping the assumption.

As for brutality, it;s hard to completely so 100% when the media only focuses on the brutality of White on Black crime via Police Brutality and almost never when a white person is also getting police brutality or even if it was by a black cop, which has happened. That is not to say the sides are equal in issue, but don't play it like it/s only one thing and it is purely racism, which is not.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 2:55:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:18:13 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...

"certain circumstances" huh?

That is rich. You mean, circumstances such as when anybody does not agree with their dogma. I have also posted surahs that contain quotes of unbidden violence. Where the Muslims were NOT provoked but ordered to simply kill all infidels. Do you need me to post those again for you?

You really should re-think your Faith. If you really need to believe in something you can do better than Islam.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 7:17:07 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:32:00 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:22:17 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:14:18 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.

He was under arrest, and resisted. You are proving my point. The situation was muddied, but he was resisting arrest, (in fact, nearly every death that is reported nationally of a black man is resisting arrest, not that that excuses the behavior, but that does mean that some force is required).
NYPD officers approached Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers went to arrest Garner.[4] When officer Daniel Pantaleo took Garner's wrist behind his back, Garner swatted his arms away.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org...

He resisted arrest, and as a result, force was authorized. The discussion needs to be had about how much is too much, and, to be honest, after pulling away and "swatting" the officer, being taken to the ground doesn't seem excessive to me.
What do you recommend the police have done to arrest a man who is taller and heavier? Without an answer, the charge of excessive force is moot, since there is no alternative given. (and don't say "not killed him" either)

1: You say he resisted arrest, but you also fail to mention that he was being unlawfully arrested. The cops didn't bother to ask him any questions, they just went up to him and killed him.
He was asked about selling untaxed cigarettes, which had nothing to do with the fight, and then refused to answer, and was then arrested. Whether or not he was being unlawfully arrested, he was being arrested, and resisted, and, from the cop's point of view, force needed to be used. I have never heard anyone refute the legality of the arrest. Can you provide a source?

2: Perhaps they could've, instead of jumping to conclusions, asked him or someone else what was going on. They were called in because of a fight. It wouldn't take much to find out that the fight was over.
He was never suspected about the fight, he was asked about his previous criminal behavior - selling cigarettes.
His previous criminal behavior was already dealt with. He was appropriately punished for that crime. The fight he broke up was why the cops were called. They recognized him from when he sold illegal cigarettes and assumed he did something wrong.

Now, address the question: if someone is resisting arrest, do you agree that some force is allowed to be used? Is tackling someone who runs away excessive force? Is tasing them in order to arrest them?
Sure, if a legit criminal is resisting arrest force is necessary. However, the cops still need to know when someone is a legit criminal.

This is exactly what I mean about the mentality of police brutality. You are outright refusing to see both sides, and refuse to address the cop's requirement to subdue the suspect if they are under arrest. So, how much force is too much?

I'm not saying to get rid of force. I'm saying that the cops need to recognize when someone is not a threat. Eric Garner was not a threat. The only "threatening" thing about him was his skin color.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 8:07:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:55:27 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:18:13 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...

"certain circumstances" huh?

That is rich. You mean, circumstances such as when anybody does not agree with their dogma. I have also posted surahs that contain quotes of unbidden violence. Where the Muslims were NOT provoked but ordered to simply kill all infidels. Do you need me to post those again for you?
You make it sound like every Muslim in the world practices those foul acts.
Also, you're cherry-picking. You're looking at a handful of passages and saying Islam is bad. How about you look at all of the passages and then judge. There's more to the Quran than just slaughter. There's a lot actually. Like how the Quran says to give to the poor.

You really should re-think your Faith. If you really need to believe in something you can do better than Islam.

I assume you think your religion is better than Islam. Now, I don't think there really is a best religion. All have upsides and downsides. I chose Islam because it spoke to me the most.

Now allow me to give my own, personal, beliefs about Islam. Now, I ask you to open your mind to what I'm saying here. Don't just brush it off as some "libtard fantasy."
First, the Quran says that everything is allowed except what has been permitted. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't ban the ability to interpret passages figuratively.
Second, I know about that passage where we're supposed to go out and "strike down" those who aren't Muslim. Well, let's think first. The Quran defines a Muslim as someone who submits to the will of God; be it human, animal, inanimate, whatever. The Quran also says that God is in full control of everything. That implies that everything submits to God, regardless if they know. Since a Muslim is someone who submits to God and it's implied that everything and everyone submits to God, then that means everyone is inherently a Muslim. So it is therefore impossible to fulfill that passage of "striking down" those who aren't Muslim, since everyone is a Muslim.
Third, you'll probably ask, "Why add that passage then anyways?" Well, we need to first think of the time period Islam was created in. It was a very violent time and people had very poor logic. In order to defend Muslims from extinction during its early years, there needed to be passages about war and violence, since that was the language people back then spoke. Since people often didn't think straight, they wouldn't be able to figure out what I figured out. And let's be real; people were stupid back then. In that time, people attacked others based on their religious beliefs. Sure, some do it today, but it's at a much lower level than back then.

It's not a fully flushed-out theory, but it's a base line.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 8:20:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:07:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:55:27 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:18:13 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...

"certain circumstances" huh?

That is rich. You mean, circumstances such as when anybody does not agree with their dogma. I have also posted surahs that contain quotes of unbidden violence. Where the Muslims were NOT provoked but ordered to simply kill all infidels. Do you need me to post those again for you?
You make it sound like every Muslim in the world practices those foul acts.
Also, you're cherry-picking. You're looking at a handful of passages and saying Islam is bad. How about you look at all of the passages and then judge. There's more to the Quran than just slaughter. There's a lot actually. Like how the Quran says to give to the poor.

You really should re-think your Faith. If you really need to believe in something you can do better than Islam.

I assume you think your religion is better than Islam. Now, I don't think there really is a best religion. All have upsides and downsides. I chose Islam because it spoke to me the most.

Now allow me to give my own, personal, beliefs about Islam. Now, I ask you to open your mind to what I'm saying here. Don't just brush it off as some "libtard fantasy."
First, the Quran says that everything is allowed except what has been permitted. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't ban the ability to interpret passages figuratively.
Second, I know about that passage where we're supposed to go out and "strike down" those who aren't Muslim. Well, let's think first. The Quran defines a Muslim as someone who submits to the will of God; be it human, animal, inanimate, whatever. The Quran also says that God is in full control of everything. That implies that everything submits to God, regardless if they know. Since a Muslim is someone who submits to God and it's implied that everything and everyone submits to God, then that means everyone is inherently a Muslim. So it is therefore impossible to fulfill that passage of "striking down" those who aren't Muslim, since everyone is a Muslim.
Third, you'll probably ask, "Why add that passage then anyways?" Well, we need to first think of the time period Islam was created in. It was a very violent time and people had very poor logic. In order to defend Muslims from extinction during its early years, there needed to be passages about war and violence, since that was the language people back then spoke. Since people often didn't think straight, they wouldn't be able to figure out what I figured out. And let's be real; people were stupid back then. In that time, people attacked others based on their religious beliefs. Sure, some do it today, but it's at a much lower level than back then.

It's not a fully flushed-out theory, but it's a base line.

LOL...it's hardly cherry picking when there are so many damn cherries on the tree is Islam. I believe I have posted thus far aboutfive dozen quotes from the Koran which command or condone violence.

I would never subscribe to a religion that possessed even a few murderous quotes or bits of dogma. Why? Who needs it? Anything "good" that is preached by Islam canbe attained on your own. With our own decent morality. I don't need a convoluted and biased, agenda-driven holy book to tell me how to love or help people or live a good life.

See my signature!! That is my take on religion, basically. And Islam is perhaps the worst of them. It just makes no sense to me at all. To try and pull a few nuggets of wisdom from a book that is otherwise filled with hate or demands to worship a god that has never been proven to do anything for anyone. Except give them the right to commit atrocity.

Did yo get a chance to check-out the "Mohammed was a pedophile" thread yet?

Man...especially if I was a woman I would loathe Islam. They do not respect you. Why pay homage to them? I am guessing you are simply at a point in your life where you feel a void and the need to believe in something. Grasping at straws, so to speak. So you latch onto something that you think can fill that void. Thus, your faith in reality is fear-based. Not based on logic.

Which is basically capitulation. But you are young, and striving for answers. You just picked the wrong place to find them. As you will one day see.

If you are lucky.
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 8:51:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:20:13 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 8:07:12 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 2:55:27 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:18:13 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:10:15 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:57:20 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/17/2015 4:57:36 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...

"certain circumstances" huh?

That is rich. You mean, circumstances such as when anybody does not agree with their dogma. I have also posted surahs that contain quotes of unbidden violence. Where the Muslims were NOT provoked but ordered to simply kill all infidels. Do you need me to post those again for you?
You make it sound like every Muslim in the world practices those foul acts.
Also, you're cherry-picking. You're looking at a handful of passages and saying Islam is bad. How about you look at all of the passages and then judge. There's more to the Quran than just slaughter. There's a lot actually. Like how the Quran says to give to the poor.

You really should re-think your Faith. If you really need to believe in something you can do better than Islam.

I assume you think your religion is better than Islam. Now, I don't think there really is a best religion. All have upsides and downsides. I chose Islam because it spoke to me the most.

Now allow me to give my own, personal, beliefs about Islam. Now, I ask you to open your mind to what I'm saying here. Don't just brush it off as some "libtard fantasy."
First, the Quran says that everything is allowed except what has been permitted. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't ban the ability to interpret passages figuratively.
Second, I know about that passage where we're supposed to go out and "strike down" those who aren't Muslim. Well, let's think first. The Quran defines a Muslim as someone who submits to the will of God; be it human, animal, inanimate, whatever. The Quran also says that God is in full control of everything. That implies that everything submits to God, regardless if they know. Since a Muslim is someone who submits to God and it's implied that everything and everyone submits to God, then that means everyone is inherently a Muslim. So it is therefore impossible to fulfill that passage of "striking down" those who aren't Muslim, since everyone is a Muslim.
Third, you'll probably ask, "Why add that passage then anyways?" Well, we need to first think of the time period Islam was created in. It was a very violent time and people had very poor logic. In order to defend Muslims from extinction during its early years, there needed to be passages about war and violence, since that was the language people back then spoke. Since people often didn't think straight, they wouldn't be able to figure out what I figured out. And let's be real; people were stupid back then. In that time, people attacked others based on their religious beliefs. Sure, some do it today, but it's at a much lower level than back then.

It's not a fully flushed-out theory, but it's a base line.

LOL...it's hardly cherry picking when there are so many damn cherries on the tree is Islam. I believe I have posted thus far aboutfive dozen quotes from the Koran which command or condone violence.
You haven't posted a single passage from the Quran onto this thread. Only links and your rants.

I would never subscribe to a religion that possessed even a few murderous quotes or bits of dogma. Why? Who needs it? Anything "good" that is preached by Islam canbe attained on your own. With our own decent morality. I don't need a convoluted and biased, agenda-driven holy book to tell me how to love or help people or live a good life.
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not going to tell you what to do.

See my signature!! That is my take on religion, basically. And Islam is perhaps the worst of them. It just makes no sense to me at all. To try and pull a few nuggets of wisdom from a book that is otherwise filled with hate or demands to worship a god that has never been proven to do anything for anyone. Except give them the right to commit atrocity.
It doesn't have to make sense to you. Though you constantly persist on insulting my religion when I have not laid a finger on your own.

Did yo get a chance to check-out the "Mohammed was a pedophile" thread yet?
I heard the claim. At the time of Mohammed, marrying a young child was common. Pedophilia was much more accepted at the time. By today's standards, it's bad, but it was widely done at the time.

Man...especially if I was a woman I would loathe Islam. They do not respect you. Why pay homage to them? I am guessing you are simply at a point in your life where you feel a void and the need to believe in something. Grasping at straws, so to speak. So you latch onto something that you think can fill that void. Thus, your faith in reality is fear-based. Not based on logic.
You realize that Mohammed said that women and men are equal in Islam, right? Just because Saudi Arabia and Iran oppress women doesn't mean that the Quran says so. They simply have sexist leaders who just happen to be Muslim.

Which is basically capitulation. But you are young, and striving for answers. You just picked the wrong place to find them. As you will one day see.

If you are lucky.

You say religion will only lead to slaughter. Well, I seem to recall that Stalin was an Atheist who ordered the deaths millions. Or Maximillian Robespierre, who led The Terror in France, which killed thousands. The only reason Atheism has caused less slaughter is because it's relatively new.

It feels as though your only goal in this thread is to try and get a reaction out of me.
You've failed.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 8:51:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 8:29:50 PM, Saint_of_Me wrote:
A woman Islamic convert, eh?

Wow.

Just.........wow.

http://infidelsarecool.com...

I'm a guy. My profile pic is of a character from a book.
Saint_of_Me
Posts: 2,402
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7/18/2015 9:05:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7o discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

I see you are a convert to Islam?

Why in the world would you want to do something like that?

It is murderous and vile.

Check out my thread on it!!

Enjoy. And learn. Save yourself before it is too late!! LOL

http://www.debate.org...

Allow me to follow what George Carlin said about arguing with stupid people.

So is that it?

No rebuttal about Islam? And me links?

I checked your link. And your link in that link. The site you linked is an anti-Islam site, so of course they're going to cherry pick quotes from the Quran to demonize it. The site also fails to mention any of the good quotes from the Quran.

"And whenever you give your word, say the truth" [al-An"aam 6:152]

"And seek help in patience and prayer" [al-Baqarah 2:45]

"And speak good to people" [al-Baqarah 2:83]

"Verily! Allaah commands that you should render back the trusts to those to whom they are due" [al-Nisa" 4:58]

"And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift)" [al-Isra" 17:29]

"Eat and drink, but waste not by extravagance" [al-A"raaf 7:31]

I know there are violent quotes in the Quran, but those are done under certain circumstances. Besides, the book was written in a violent time, so of course Muslims would need to defend themselves in that time period from religious persecution.
I'm certain this sums things up: https://youtu.be...

"certain circumstances" huh?

That is rich. You mean, circumstances such as when anybody does not agree with their dogma. I have also posted surahs that contain quotes of unbidden violence. Where the Muslims were NOT provoked but ordered to simply kill all infidels. Do you need me to post those again for you?
You make it sound like every Muslim in the world practices those foul acts.
Also, you're cherry-picking. You're looking at a handful of passages and saying Islam is bad. How about you look at all of the passages and then judge. There's more to the Quran than just slaughter. There's a lot actually. Like how the Quran says to give to the poor.

You really should re-think your Faith. If you really need to believe in something you can do better than Islam.

I assume you think your religion is better than Islam. Now, I don't think there really is a best religion. All have upsides and downsides. I chose Islam because it spoke to me the most.

Now allow me to give my own, personal, beliefs about Islam. Now, I ask you to open your mind to what I'm saying here. Don't just brush it off as some "libtard fantasy."
First, the Quran says that everything is allowed except what has been permitted. To the best of my knowledge, it doesn't ban the ability to interpret passages figuratively.
Second, I know about that passage where we're supposed to go out and "strike down" those who aren't Muslim. Well, let's think first. The Quran defines a Muslim as someone who submits to the will of God; be it human, animal, inanimate, whatever. The Quran also says that God is in full control of everything. That implies that everything submits to God, regardless if they know. Since a Muslim is someone who submits to God and it's implied that everything and everyone submits to God, then that means everyone is inherently a Muslim. So it is therefore impossible to fulfill that passage of "striking down" those who aren't Muslim, since everyone is a Muslim.
Third, you'll probably ask, "Why add that passage then anyways?" Well, we need to first think of the time period Islam was created in. It was a very violent time and people had very poor logic. In order to defend Muslims from extinction during its early years, there needed to be passages about war and violence, since that was the language people back then spoke. Since people often didn't think straight, they wouldn't be able to figure out what I figured out. And let's be real; people were stupid back then. In that time, people attacked others based on their religious beliefs. Sure, some do it today, but it's at a much lower level than back then.

It's not a fully flushed-out theory, but it's a base line.

LOL...it's hardly cherry picking when there are so many damn cherries on the tree is Islam. I believe I have posted thus far aboutfive dozen quotes from the Koran which command or condone violence.
You haven't posted a single passage from the Quran onto this thread. Only links and your rants.

I would never subscribe to a religion that possessed even a few murderous quotes or bits of dogma. Why? Who needs it? Anything "good" that is preached by Islam canbe attained on your own. With our own decent morality. I don't need a convoluted and biased, agenda-driven holy book to tell me how to love or help people or live a good life.
Well, that's your opinion. I'm not going to tell you what to do.

See my signature!! That is my take on religion, basically. And Islam is perhaps the worst of them. It just makes no sense to me at all. To try and pull a few nuggets of wisdom from a book that is otherwise filled with hate or demands to worship a god that has never been proven to do anything for anyone. Except give them the right to commit atrocity.
It doesn't have to make sense to you. Though you constantly persist on insulting my religion when I have not laid a finger on your own.

Did yo get a chance to check-out the "Mohammed was a pedophile" thread yet?
I heard the claim. At the time of Mohammed, marrying a young child was common. Pedophilia was much more accepted at the time. By today's standards, it's bad, but it was widely done at the time.

Man...especially if I was a woman I would loathe Islam. They do not respect you. Why pay homage to them? I am guessing you are simply at a point in your life where you feel a void and the need to believe in something. Grasping at straws, so to speak. So you latch onto something that you think can fill that void. Thus, your faith in reality is fear-based. Not based on logic.
You realize that Mohammed said that women and men are equal in Islam, right? Just because Saudi Arabia and Iran oppress women doesn't mean that the Quran says so. They simply have sexist leaders who just happen to be Muslim.

Which is basically capitulation. But you are young, and striving for answers. You just picked the wrong place to find them. As you will one day see.

If you are lucky.

You say religion will only lead to slaughter. Well, I seem to recall that Stalin was an Atheist who ordered the deaths millions. Or Maximillian Robespierre, who led The Terror in France, which killed thousands. The only reason Atheism has caused less slaughter is because it's relatively new.

So what? Just because there are evil Atheists does not make the evils of Religion any more justified. One does not exclude the other. You are basically saying "Hey we are not the only ones doing killing." So what? That fact does nothing to condone the evils and violence of Islam.

I was not trying to get a reaction out of you. Just make you re-think your conversion. But go ahead and see how it works out for you. Good luck with it. Many peo
Science Flies Us to the Moon. Religion Flies us Into Skyscrapers.
Oreo222
Posts: 180
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7/18/2015 9:17:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I only mentioned Stalin and Robespierre because your new quote about religion made it seem like religion only results in violence. Religion results in many things. Yes, there are those who do violent things for the sake of religion, but they are a small minority. Yes, science results in good things, but also bad things like identity theft. Your quote also makes it seem like science and Islam contradict. Fun fact: nothing in the Quran contradicts modern accepted science. There's even a part of the Quran that talks about embryology, the study of how the fetus is formed, and it goes into quite a bit of detail.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/19/2015 1:32:27 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

It exists, but often people have nonideal what they're looking at, when they watch supposed film of it. For the most part it's blown completely out of proportion.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/19/2015 1:39:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 1:22:17 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:14:18 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:55:07 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
At 7/18/2015 12:15:45 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 7/16/2015 9:34:25 PM, Oreo222 wrote:
This is a thread for people to discuss the issue of Police Brutality. Do you think it's real, or is it people overreacting? If you think it exists, what do you think should be done about it?

Generally, I think it is both, and people need to acknowledge force is acceptable and necessary (the overreaction), and undue outrage over these cases muddy the water when actual brutaility or excessive force is used, because they can just say "they always say that".

For example, the mentality of overreaction, IMO, is evident in the case of Eric Garner. People literally took to the streets about excessive force. The mentality I speak of is evident in the fact that very few people, if any, will admit that SOME amount of force was acceptable. By refusing to acknowledge this, it becomes an overreaction, since the debate over his death is about excessive force being used, as opposed to what constitutes excessive force. It muddies the discussion.

You mentioned Eric Garner, but he did nothing wrong. There was a fight, Eric tried to break it up, the cops came, assumed Eric was a part of it, and choked him to death. By the time the cops showed up, the fight was already over.

He was under arrest, and resisted. You are proving my point. The situation was muddied, but he was resisting arrest, (in fact, nearly every death that is reported nationally of a black man is resisting arrest, not that that excuses the behavior, but that does mean that some force is required).
NYPD officers approached Garner on suspicion of selling "loosies" (single cigarettes) from packs without tax stamps. After Garner told the police that he was tired of being harassed and that he was not selling cigarettes, the officers went to arrest Garner.[4] When officer Daniel Pantaleo took Garner's wrist behind his back, Garner swatted his arms away.[5]
https://en.wikipedia.org...

He resisted arrest, and as a result, force was authorized. The discussion needs to be had about how much is too much, and, to be honest, after pulling away and "swatting" the officer, being taken to the ground doesn't seem excessive to me.
What do you recommend the police have done to arrest a man who is taller and heavier? Without an answer, the charge of excessive force is moot, since there is no alternative given. (and don't say "not killed him" either)

1: You say he resisted arrest, but you also fail to mention that he was being unlawfully arrested. The cops didn't bother to ask him any questions, they just went up to him and killed him.

He was being lawfully arrested. I'm not sure where this is coming from. If was a lawful arrest, and in most jurisdictions it is still illegal to resist unlawful arrest, though the Supreme Court makes exceptions.

2: Perhaps they could've, instead of jumping to conclusions, asked him or someone else what was going on. They were called in because of a fight. It wouldn't take much to find out that the fight was over.

It's not the police's place to figure out everything that is going on, on the spot. Court is to be held in the court room, not the streets.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/19/2015 1:49:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 7/18/2015 2:19:33 PM, Such wrote:
At 7/18/2015 1:32:00 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
from the cop's point of view, force needed to be used.

Here's where the problem begins.

So, how much force is too much?

And here's where the problem elevates.

There are clearly delineated levels of threat someone asserting the law must abide by in order to ensure problems like this don't arise. If a suspect is uncooperative, but isn't a threat, and isn't running, any elevated use of force is not authorized at all.

That's not true at all. Police are allowed to use force on somebody merely for being uncooperative. The use of force continuum is a good guide for understanding police behavior, but is not an end all be all. Any resistance authorizes the use of force, and in many situations, the suspect does not even need to resist in order to have force used on them.


The use of deadly force is not authorized, but, what the cops did involved in the Eric Garner case was not technically deadly force. It was, however, not by standards, and it wasn't an authorized use of force -- choke holds and body slams, for example

It's not really a choke hold. Pressure is applied in the correct spot to restrict blood flow not breat, and police are trained to use take downs (what you refer to as a body slam). They are trained to do the moves, you specifically have stated they're not authorized to use.

-- cops, just like military watch standers, are trained on how to apprehend people to ensure problems like this don't arise. Those cops, in how they handled things, were very unprofessional, and their lack of professionalism coupled with their excessive behavior resulted in someone's death. Sorry they didn't mean to kill anyone, but in their line of work, unprofessional, excessive behavior can result in death, and they need to be held responsible for that.

The cops maintained professional behavior. The behavior was not excessive. If you're stating it is, you need to provide some evidence. Everything was according to procedure. If you don't like the type of behavior they engage in, you should petition various organizations responsible for police policy, to have that changed. If you have a problem with policy, then you should specify that, but it's unfair to say these people did nothing wrong, when they followed policy, that was dictated to them by the public in a very Democratic way.

Seems like crystal clear water to me.

I'm sure it does, but I think your view is clouded by emotion and no clear understanding of police policy. If you take the emotion out of it, and try to understand policy, you'll also have a crystal clear view that tells you something completely different
kp98
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7/19/2015 4:24:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
The cops maintained professional behavior. The behavior was not excessive. If you're stating it is, you need to provide some evidence.

They killed the guy.... how more evidence for 'unprofessional behaviour' do you want than a dead body? I'd say behaviour that ends up with someone dead is - prima facie - excessive and unprofessional. If the guy had a heart condition there'd be some excuse, but that doesn't apply here.

There will always be occasions where someting goes wrong - police men are human beings. What matters is what happens when things go wrong. What happens at the moment is that people divide into camps - the police are thugs or the police can do no wrong.
The riots weren't because a couple of cops broke the rules. The riots were because the community didn't think those cops would be adequately punished for breaking the rules - probably based on a great deal of past experience of police using strong arm tactics with impunity.

Do we assume the cops were thugs or that they "maintained professional behavior. The behavior was not excessive"? I don't think they were necessarily thugs, but killing people is not on and they should be severely punished. That's what the community thought, but didn't think would happen. They were probably right.