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The Venus Project.

MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/26/2010 2:12:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I just want to know your thoughts on it. If you don't know what it is, it's basically the theory the humans would thrive better without currency. That's an oversimplification but heres the link http://www.thevenusproject.com...
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/26/2010 2:27:24 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:20:31 AM, Puck wrote:
It's a pseudo green utopian communist lol fest.

i guess thats one way to look at it.
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/26/2010 8:01:13 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 2:12:05 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I just want to know your thoughts on it. If you don't know what it is, it's basically the theory the humans would thrive better without currency. That's an oversimplification but heres the link http://www.thevenusproject.com...

Apparently, I've had exposure to these people before, as apparently, they produced that Zeitgeist movie of which I was a huge fan a couple of years ago when it came out. I was likewise enthralled by the dialectics that followed. They're clearly not stupid people. That said, I'd like to thank you for showing me the source. This is most intriguing.

On the other hand, I must admit that although I like their basis and all that, much of what they have on there seems to be a bit... sci-fi-ish. Like, it loses it's pragmatic, progressive luster without a clear trajectory guiding us from how things are now to their idealistic "utopia."

A quote from an essay they published on their site, accessible from the main navigation menu:

"With the advent of future developments in science and technology, we will assign more and more decision making to machines. At present this is evident in military systems in which electronic sensors maintain the ideal flight characteristics in advanced aircraft. The capacities of computers today exceed five hundred trillion bits of information per second. The complexity of today's civilization is far too complex for human systems to manage without the assistance of electronic computers. Computers of today are relatively primitive compared to those that will evolve in the future."

See, I don't know about all that. It sounds as though we're replacing a government and bureaucracy with computers. That doesn't sync well with me.

Furthermore, the sort of society they're proposing does sound rather communistic, or at least hyperbolically socialistic. I mean, things are so standard, that there is *no* money. We'd have to come up with an alternate way to concentrate efforts. Unless we can come up with a way to cause willful imbalances in order to concentrate our resources, things will likely be too diluted in order to get really big things done. Art would all but die, since it's not necessity.

It needs more work. But, I like where they're going with it. They've certainly identified much of the problem. The solution...

...will be much more than a website and some George Lucas take on reformation.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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8/27/2010 12:41:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ren, I might be missing something but I think if we get machines to do pretty much all the work then actually having money would be kinda useless, there wouldn't really be any jobs, everything would run better, I do believe art would exist tho since I know many people that enjoy art, and I do think people would maintain the machines, and some make new ones, just because they like to. I think people would be happier that way anyway and get to live their lives pretty much how they want to, no poverty, no jobs, little/no fooling the system, it seems pretty good to me.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
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8/27/2010 12:45:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/26/2010 8:01:13 AM, Ren wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:12:05 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I just want to know your thoughts on it. If you don't know what it is, it's basically the theory the humans would thrive better without currency. That's an oversimplification but heres the link http://www.thevenusproject.com...

Apparently, I've had exposure to these people before, as apparently, they produced that Zeitgeist movie of which I was a huge fan a couple of years ago when it came out.

Venus Project didn't produce Zeitgeist. Peter Joseph produced it and invited a spokesperson for Venus Project to speak on his second Zeitgeist film.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/27/2010 2:05:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 1:38:32 AM, Kinesis wrote:
S'all good once we invent replicators.

replicators? what do you want to replicate?
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/27/2010 2:06:17 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
and i would like to thank everyone for posting. i just wanted to know your thoughts although im a bit confused on Puck's "lol fest"
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Kinesis
Posts: 3,667
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8/27/2010 2:20:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 2:05:15 AM, MarquisX wrote:
At 8/27/2010 1:38:32 AM, Kinesis wrote:
S'all good once we invent replicators.

replicators? what do you want to replicate?

http://memory-alpha.org...
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/27/2010 2:23:01 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 12:45:16 AM, GeoLaureate8 wrote:
At 8/26/2010 8:01:13 AM, Ren wrote:
At 8/26/2010 2:12:05 AM, MarquisX wrote:
I just want to know your thoughts on it. If you don't know what it is, it's basically the theory the humans would thrive better without currency. That's an oversimplification but heres the link http://www.thevenusproject.com...

Apparently, I've had exposure to these people before, as apparently, they produced that Zeitgeist movie of which I was a huge fan a couple of years ago when it came out.

Venus Project didn't produce Zeitgeist. Peter Joseph produced it and invited a spokesperson for Venus Project to speak on his second Zeitgeist film.

From the Venus Project Website:

"THE ZEITGEIST MOVEMENT
Join the Movement
The Zeitgeist Movement is the activist arm of The Venus Project

View Zeitgeist Movie Addendum and more"
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/27/2010 10:12:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 12:41:46 AM, lovelife wrote:
Ren, I might be missing something but I think if we get machines to do pretty much all the work then actually having money would be kinda useless, there wouldn't really be any jobs, everything would run better, I do believe art would exist tho since I know many people that enjoy art, and I do think people would maintain the machines, and some make new ones, just because they like to. I think people would be happier that way anyway and get to live their lives pretty much how they want to, no poverty, no jobs, little/no fooling the system, it seems pretty good to me.

It depends on what you consider "all the work." There's a lot of work that needs to be done by people no matter what, whether it's creating the machines, programming them, establishing plans, and finding solutions. The only jobs that can conceivably be replaced are the menial jobs. Waiters, construction workers, etc. Doctors, lawyers, architects, scientists, engineers, etc., all keep their jobs. It will be literally impossible to replace them with robots.

I believe that art would be at risk because, from where would people get the materials to create art? Are there still going to be people who make art materials? Where are they going to get the raw materials? Are machines just going to procure it all and then personally deliver it to them? Who will provide those machines?

Eventually, you end up realizing that a whole lot of work is going to have to be done for free out of the kindness of someone's heart while everyone else continues making money in order for this to *begin,* because not everyone knows how to engineer, program, or do the many things we would have the resulting robots take over.

I think it is possible to eradicate poverty without eradicating currency.
MarquisX
Posts: 925
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8/28/2010 4:25:54 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/27/2010 10:12:21 PM, Ren wrote:


It depends on what you consider "all the work." There's a lot of work that needs to be done by people no matter what, whether it's creating the machines, programming them, establishing plans, and finding solutions. The only jobs that can conceivably be replaced are the menial jobs. Waiters, construction workers, etc. Doctors, lawyers, architects, scientists, engineers, etc., all keep their jobs. It will be literally impossible to replace them with robots.

I believe that art would be at risk because, from where would people get the materials to create art? Are there still going to be people who make art materials? Where are they going to get the raw materials? Are machines just going to procure it all and then personally deliver it to them? Who will provide those machines?

Eventually, you end up realizing that a whole lot of work is going to have to be done for free out of the kindness of someone's heart while everyone else continues making money in order for this to *begin,* because not everyone knows how to engineer, program, or do the many things we would have the resulting robots take over.

I think it is possible to eradicate poverty without eradicating currency.

i see what your saying. but would you just sit on your butt all day? i mean i like flying. so currency or not i would fly. i know people that feel the same way about acting or working on cars. i dont think people would stop doing things just because they get what they want. even steve jobs goes to work everyday. and everyone is getting the same resources i do believe that people would become nicer to each other
Sophisticated ignorance, write my curses in cursive
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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8/28/2010 4:33:55 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 8/28/2010 4:25:54 AM, MarquisX wrote:
At 8/27/2010 10:12:21 PM, Ren wrote:


It depends on what you consider "all the work." There's a lot of work that needs to be done by people no matter what, whether it's creating the machines, programming them, establishing plans, and finding solutions. The only jobs that can conceivably be replaced are the menial jobs. Waiters, construction workers, etc. Doctors, lawyers, architects, scientists, engineers, etc., all keep their jobs. It will be literally impossible to replace them with robots.

I believe that art would be at risk because, from where would people get the materials to create art? Are there still going to be people who make art materials? Where are they going to get the raw materials? Are machines just going to procure it all and then personally deliver it to them? Who will provide those machines?

Eventually, you end up realizing that a whole lot of work is going to have to be done for free out of the kindness of someone's heart while everyone else continues making money in order for this to *begin,* because not everyone knows how to engineer, program, or do the many things we would have the resulting robots take over.

I think it is possible to eradicate poverty without eradicating currency.

i see what your saying. but would you just sit on your butt all day? i mean i like flying. so currency or not i would fly. i know people that feel the same way about acting or working on cars. i dont think people would stop doing things just because they get what they want. even steve jobs goes to work everyday. and everyone is getting the same resources i do believe that people would become nicer to each other

Oh, that's true. But, how would you get the airplane? Who would build it for you, rather than do what he or she wants to do? What will be the incentive to give you a plane? What about teaching you to fly? Why will commit time and energy to teach you to fly rather than do something more interesting to him or her? Will there be enough people who will teach and give out airplanes out of the kindness of their hearts to accommodate everyone who wants instruction on and the capacity to fly? If not, what happens for those who don't get what they want? They just suck it up? What distinguishes them from those who do get what they want?

See what I mean?