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Is Torture Ever Justified?

Lee001
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8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Thoughts?
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Lee001
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8/10/2015 4:40:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:40:39 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Nope

Why?
"Condoms are societal constructs created by the government to restrain 'Murican freedom!"-SolonKR

"But I jest and digress (sick rhymes, yo); every boob is equal in the eyes of the Lord."- SolonKR

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The-Voice-of-Truth
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8/10/2015 4:50:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Ayuh.
Suh dude

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Varrack
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8/10/2015 4:55:32 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:40:51 PM, Lee001 wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:40:39 PM, Varrack wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Nope

Why?

You're asking me to prove a negative? Or did you mean "why not"?

Anyways, no, I find it inhumane and wouldn't wish it on anyone.
kasmic
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8/10/2015 4:57:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Defining terms:

Torture: " the act of inflicting excruciating pain, as punishment or revenge, as a means of getting a confession or information, or for sheer cruelty." (1)

Just: "guided by truth, reason, justice, and fairness: " (2)

Justice: "the quality of being just; righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness:"(3)

So I realize you are looking for more of a discussion but from a simple relation of terms I would say that torture is never justified.

That is to say that "the act of inflicting pain as a punishment or revenge..... is not guided by truth, reason, or fairness and is not moral rightness."

(1) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(2) http://dictionary.reference.com...
(3) http://dictionary.reference.com...
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Kozu
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8/10/2015 6:02:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?
Lee001
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8/10/2015 6:04:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:02:26 PM, Kozu wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

I absolutely agree!
"Condoms are societal constructs created by the government to restrain 'Murican freedom!"-SolonKR

"But I jest and digress (sick rhymes, yo); every boob is equal in the eyes of the Lord."- SolonKR

"Oh Hey, Seeing Artichokes Makes Me Want to Have Sex."- SolonKR

"Yep, but anyone who touches my hair immediately ascends to the heavens..You're already an angel, so touching my hair can do nothing <3" -SolonKR

My hubby Hayd <3 <3
thett3
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8/10/2015 6:09:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:02:26 PM, Kozu wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

This. It would be the height of immorality to not torture a terrorist to disarm a bomb that would destroy a major city just so we can feel good about ourselves for not "stooping to their level", or whatever other hippy babble the bleeding hearts use
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kasmic
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8/10/2015 6:13:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

So there are a few assumptions in this thought process....

is torture an effective means to get information? Does it retrieve accurate information? Is it fast? Is it reliable?

The hypothetical you provided is poor. you have made the options... torture, or allow people to die... this is a false dichotomy.

Torture may not give you any info on where a bomb is... and not torturing is not equal to not trying to find or disarm the bomb.
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thett3
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8/10/2015 6:16:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:13:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

So there are a few assumptions in this thought process....

is torture an effective means to get information? Does it retrieve accurate information? Is it fast? Is it reliable?

The hypothetical you provided is poor. you have made the options... torture, or allow people to die... this is a false dichotomy.

Lol, sure it's a false dichotomy. Can you think of another way to swiftly find the location of a bomb set to go off from a hardened terrorist? Torture may not work, but it damn sure has a better chance of working that asking the terrorist nicely to please reveal the location of the bomb so that afterwards we can all hold hands and revel in how just and peaceful we are.


Torture may not give you any info on where a bomb is... and not torturing is not equal to not trying to find or disarm the bomb.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
64bithuman
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8/10/2015 6:20:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Here's how torture should be used (and how it previously was used): If there's a bomb ticking, you torture the terrorist and you save the day - then you face the courts - the court decides the situation was justified and you're fine. The opposite has proven to be not only brutal but ineffective.
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Kozu
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8/10/2015 6:25:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:13:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

So there are a few assumptions in this thought process....

is torture an effective means to get information? Does it retrieve accurate information? Is it fast? Is it reliable?

Faster and more reliable then any other method you or anyone else may suggest.

The hypothetical you provided is poor. you have made the options... torture, or allow people to die... this is a false dichotomy.

I did ask what the alternatives were. No one seems to have any.

Torture may not give you any info on where a bomb is... and not torturing is not equal to not trying to find or disarm the bomb.

Team A tortures while Team B searches. May as well be searching for a needle in a haystack though.
katie.snappy
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8/10/2015 6:25:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:16:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, sure it's a false dichotomy. Can you think of another way to swiftly find the location of a bomb set to go off from a hardened terrorist? Torture may not work, but it damn sure has a better chance of working that asking the terrorist nicely to please reveal the location of the bomb so that afterwards we can all hold hands and revel in how just and peaceful we are.

Isn't it more likely for a terrorist to lie under duress than to confess the real location of the bomb? I agree that just talking to them will not be successful, but it is equally risky to torture them and then potentially waste resources chasing down a false lead.
kasmic
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8/10/2015 6:28:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So I suppose we are looking at this question differently.

Is the question intended as "do the ends justify the means?"

Do you base what is moral based on the results or the action itself?

Consider this thought experiment.

" There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?" (1)

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Burzmali
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8/10/2015 6:31:56 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:02:26 PM, Kozu wrote:
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

This isn't a credible scenario. You're talking about a situation where we have enough evidence/intelligence to know that a bomb has been planted somewhere capable of killing a thousand people, and we know enough to capture someone so closely related to the bomb plot that he/she knows its location and time of detonation, and yet we don't already have enough info to just go find it ourselves. If either of those two isn't true (the bomb exists and this person knows where), you're risking committing a heinous act for nothing. And the fallout from that kind of mistake has the potential to cause more lasting harm than the hypothetical bomb.
thett3
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8/10/2015 6:32:49 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:25:50 PM, katie.snappy wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:16:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, sure it's a false dichotomy. Can you think of another way to swiftly find the location of a bomb set to go off from a hardened terrorist? Torture may not work, but it damn sure has a better chance of working that asking the terrorist nicely to please reveal the location of the bomb so that afterwards we can all hold hands and revel in how just and peaceful we are.

Isn't it more likely for a terrorist to lie under duress than to confess the real location of the bomb? I agree that just talking to them will not be successful, but it is equally risky to torture them and then potentially waste resources chasing down a false lead.

Give a better alternative. If torture has a 10% probability of success and asking nicely where the bomb is has a 0% probability of success, torture is the superior alternative.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
katie.snappy
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8/10/2015 6:39:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:32:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:25:50 PM, katie.snappy wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:16:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, sure it's a false dichotomy. Can you think of another way to swiftly find the location of a bomb set to go off from a hardened terrorist? Torture may not work, but it damn sure has a better chance of working that asking the terrorist nicely to please reveal the location of the bomb so that afterwards we can all hold hands and revel in how just and peaceful we are.

Isn't it more likely for a terrorist to lie under duress than to confess the real location of the bomb? I agree that just talking to them will not be successful, but it is equally risky to torture them and then potentially waste resources chasing down a false lead.

Give a better alternative. If torture has a 10% probability of success and asking nicely where the bomb is has a 0% probability of success, torture is the superior alternative.

True. However, I don't think torture should be used in cases where there isn't an extreme, direct threat to US citizens. So in my opinion, a rank-and-file ISIS fighter wouldn't warrant torture just because he doesn't possess any valuable information regarding future terrorist activities.
Kozu
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8/10/2015 6:42:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:28:49 PM, kasmic wrote:
So I suppose we are looking at this question differently.

Is the question intended as "do the ends justify the means?"

In this situation, yes. Do the ends *always* justify the means? No.


Do you base what is moral based on the results or the action itself?

Consider this thought experiment.

" There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?" (1)

https://en.wikipedia.org...
thett3
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8/10/2015 6:44:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:39:17 PM, katie.snappy wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:32:49 PM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:25:50 PM, katie.snappy wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:16:42 PM, thett3 wrote:
Lol, sure it's a false dichotomy. Can you think of another way to swiftly find the location of a bomb set to go off from a hardened terrorist? Torture may not work, but it damn sure has a better chance of working that asking the terrorist nicely to please reveal the location of the bomb so that afterwards we can all hold hands and revel in how just and peaceful we are.

Isn't it more likely for a terrorist to lie under duress than to confess the real location of the bomb? I agree that just talking to them will not be successful, but it is equally risky to torture them and then potentially waste resources chasing down a false lead.

Give a better alternative. If torture has a 10% probability of success and asking nicely where the bomb is has a 0% probability of success, torture is the superior alternative.

True. However, I don't think torture should be used in cases where there isn't an extreme, direct threat to US citizens. So in my opinion, a rank-and-file ISIS fighter wouldn't warrant torture just because he doesn't possess any valuable information regarding future terrorist activities.

No, probably not. It's justified in ticking time bomb situations. It may be justified in certain cases to gain lifesaving intelligence, but it isn't justified as a purely punitive measure against common prisoners of war
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
j50wells
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8/10/2015 8:54:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If there were such a thing as objective morality I'd say no. But there is no such thing as objective morality. Torture is just is what it is. In the midst of murder, rape, blood, and guts, scared masses will torture people if they believe that it will help them save themselves.
If torturing someone to gain information might save you and your family, and the city that you live in, most people would torture someone. There is a natural mechanism within us that brings us to great extremes when it means protecting our lives, loved ones, and property.

The torture that our military uses, however, I do not agree with. The torture that they use looks more like some kind of sadistic control technique. It is meant to cause terror and fear in prisoners. It more likely leads to false information and confessions than real ones. The men who are forced to undergo torture may or may not be an enemy combatant, as we have seen in the past...and then we have to explain to the world why it is that we tortured an innocent civilian.
But even if they aren't innocent, torture is an evil that I don't like to see our nation share a bed with. We have not made a practice of it in the past. We have generally treated POW's with kindness, knowing that they too were fighting for their countries and their beliefs, and they too are human beings, and should not be treated as if they are ants and our military is the kid with the magnifying glass. We have learned so much more through philosophy than this.
Another problem with torture is that it opens a pandoras box, in which people who have not even committed a crime could be subject to torture, as the culture that hates torture breaks down and begins to embrace torture as a means of punishment of political foes.
That same corrupt culture that embraces torture may also justify using it on criminals, and not just the really bad ones. Governments begin to think of torture as a correction tool for drug addicts and petty thieves. When this is embraced a whole new violent culture evolves. Smacking your kids becomes normal, and get your wife beater shirts out. Also, possibly the old institution of slavery could rare its ugly head.

Torture is a blemish on any nation, and will only break down the culture of that nation in the long run. That nation will one day find itself a very bloody and violent nation, a scourge to the world...a nation that thinking people will flee from.
Vox_Veritas
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8/10/2015 9:01:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

I think that it's a possible slippery slope. A society where torture is allowed under some circumstances may result in a society where torture is commonplace.
That having been said, there are some benefits to torture. As somebody else here pointed out, if it's the rights of one terrorist versus the lives of dozens/hundreds/thousands of civilians, then it should be an easy choice.
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Vox_Veritas
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8/10/2015 9:03:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Torture should not be inflicted just for the sake of torture (though very light torture may be inflicted as a punishment, IMHO), but only if it's necessary. Whenever the Government gains access to mind-reading tools, torture should become obsolete.
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August_Burns_Red
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8/10/2015 9:33:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Hi Lee. tough question. cases can be made for both sides I think. my own opinion like it says on my bio is "yes." if enhanced interregatiuon techniques can save lives than I think its justified. its never a good thing and I hope our goverment does it as little as humanly possible. but I Do answer in the affirmitive. God Bless.
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August_Burns_Red
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8/10/2015 9:35:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:42:25 PM, Kozu wrote:
At 8/10/2015 6:28:49 PM, kasmic wrote:
So I suppose we are looking at this question differently.

Is the question intended as "do the ends justify the means?"

In this situation, yes. Do the ends *always* justify the means? No.


Do you base what is moral based on the results or the action itself?

Consider this thought experiment.

" There is a runaway trolley barreling down the railway tracks. Ahead, on the tracks, there are five people tied up and unable to move. The trolley is headed straight for them. You are standing some distance off in the train yard, next to a lever. If you pull this lever, the trolley will switch to a different set of tracks. However, you notice that there is one person on the side track. You have two options: (1) Do nothing, and the trolley kills the five people on the main track. (2) Pull the lever, diverting the trolley onto the side track where it will kill one person. Which is the correct choice?" (1)

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Good answer and I agree, Kozu. and what their smoking is the Weed of Unbridled Liberalism! LOL. God Bless.
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ford_prefect
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8/10/2015 11:57:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
No, it isn't. In the ticking time bomb situation, even assuming the suspect is guilty, and he knows where the bomb is, and you couldn't find it through other means, and there isn't the option to evacuate people, and so on and so forth... even granting all those hypotheticals, what's to stop the terrorist from lying? They'll say anything to stop the torture, even if it isn't true. They'll just give you faulty info and you won't have saved any lives.

Plus, in the real world, these scenarios never happen. Instead, we torture people who we aren't even sure are guilty, and who may not even know the things we are torturing them to find out.
1harderthanyouthink
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8/11/2015 8:34:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
My stance on torture is a pragmatic one. If you torture a man in hopes they give you information - they'll tell you what you want to hear to stop the pain. Because it yields no results, it is probably immoral to inflict such pain by force.
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Yassine
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8/12/2015 3:38:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 6:13:57 PM, kasmic wrote:
Absolutely. I'm not sure what Varrack and Kasmic are smoking, but if there's a terrorist who's going to blow up a thousand innocents using a hidden explosive device, then torture is the fastest and most reliable method to discovering its location and even disarming it.

What is the alternative exactly? Let everyone blow up because its wrong to hurt people?

So there are a few assumptions in this thought process....

is torture an effective means to get information? Does it retrieve accurate information? Is it fast? Is it reliable?

The hypothetical you provided is poor. you have made the options... torture, or allow people to die... this is a false dichotomy.

Torture may not give you any info on where a bomb is... and not torturing is not equal to not trying to find or disarm the bomb.

- I think the issue of Torture concerns a general legal setting, not just this particular case of a terrorist with a bomb. You can always find a set of circumstances that would really put torture as an ultimatum to something even more undesirable. In that case, is torture then justifiable?! I mean, even killing can be sometimes justifiable (in case of self defence for example). & killing is clearly more undesirable than torture.
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Oreo222
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8/12/2015 4:56:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

Never as a punishment. That's against the Constitution.
Yassine
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8/13/2015 4:24:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/10/2015 4:38:39 PM, Lee001 wrote:
Thoughts?

- I think for almost any given act, there probably exist a set of circumstances in which it may be justified, even killing.

- As for torture, I think there should be a prolonged discussion about its legal framework & its limitations & restrictions. Leaving such an act at the discretion of authority, or ignoring it as a taboo is detriment to society. The current laws concerned with Torture are extremely vague & don't really go through what's considered acceptable & what isn't, especially in the US. Plus, they are highly evasive: lack of proper accountability, exclusive to really extreme cases...

- As others have pointed out, in times of crisis (war or chaos...) people tend to overreact out of fear or distress, & may very well discard the life or health of suspects if they think these would ease their fears. On the other hand, if torture in all its forms was completely eliminated, that too might breed more bold criminality or cause disastrous repercussions on the lives or possessions of people.

- The fact is, punishments in general are cruel & harsh by nature, that's the whole point. Uncruel punishment is no punishment at all! Thus, arguing wether torture may be used or not is a matter of degree & circumstances.
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