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How to Solve Gun Violence?

bsh1
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8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?
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Khaos_Mage
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8/12/2015 3:35:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

Acknowledge that guns are a tool, are not inherently evil, and focus on other matters of mental health and civility. I tire of seeing people blaming guns, and I tire of people ignoring the lethality they possess.
Like most of society's problems, honest discussion must commence, and blaming guns and hiding behind the Constitution is not being honest.
My work here is, finally, done.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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8/12/2015 3:51:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

The ideal system is Switzerland's. But, since we have a standing military, that won't work for us. I think that we're condemned to this fate, unless the Second Amendment is repealed, which is very unlikely to occur. I don't think that psychological testing or background checks would make much more of a dent. Curbing organized crime would actually be more effective than anything involving gun laws, as it would cut the gang-related gun violence which causes a lot of issues.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
thett3
Posts: 14,334
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8/12/2015 4:05:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I actually think when you take into account the extraordinarily large amount of firearms in civilian hands in America (somewhere between 9 for every 10 civilians and a 1 to 1 ratio) the amount of gun violence is actually very low, especially among long guns which are very rarely used in crime and almost certainly constitute the majority of firearms in the US.

Both sides of this debate are really stupid, because they're coming from radically different viewpoints and only making arguments to rationalize their knee jerk opinions.

OF COURSE gun ownership deters crime, at least certain forms of crime. There's a reason hot burglaries where the owner is in the house are extremely rare in the US and somewhere around one third to one half of burglaries in Europe--US homeowners have the firepower and the legal right to shoot an intruder dead. In England when Tony Martin tried that he was imprisoned and his surviving attacker was given public money to sue him.

On the other hand OF COURSE having a gun in the house makes you more likely to get shot...like obviously. Just like having a car means you're more likely to die in a car accident. If a gun isn't in the house, it can't be used for domestic violence or suicide. Liberals will use this to argue "See having a gun makes you less safe!1!!11!" but that's a really dumb argument because the meta level effects of gun ownership, if the deterrence theory is true, outweigh this but more importantly because it fails to persuade on a personal level. You're never gonna win over the populace by arguing "YOU can't be trusted". Even if I were willing to concede that guns make the average household less safe (which I don't), this doesn't persuade me because like virtually everyone I don't think of myself as average. Guns make Joe Wifebeater less safe, not me.

Whether or not guns deter crime on the aggregate is something of a toss up, but I'm extremely skeptical of the viability of any law to remove them from criminal hands, and it's also worth noting how much of this gun violence happens between criminals. You'll never stop premeditated murder with gun laws. About 15% of homicides are gang related and if you removed guns from the equation, these people would just bash each other to death with brass knuckles or something. Probably an assault with a greater survival rate, but a tradeoff that to most people is hardly worth rendering the home owner impotent like they are in Europe. On the other hand there's no point denying that a number of hot blooded crimes of passion absolutely would be deterred if you removed guns, which is why the stats debate is such a toss up. More importantly, it's extremely unlikely (and unconstitutional) that any gun law could successfully remove them from American society.

All these stats are really beside the point, though, because I think very few people decide their position on gun policy through a levelheaded look at the numbers. If liberals were serious about lowering gun crime they would focus on handguns, not the big bad scary "assault weapons". I don't think very many liberals understand the fundamental sense of liberation that comes from weapon ownership. I know what I will do if someone breaks into my house. Do you? As they say, when seconds count, the police are minutes away.

The problem of gun violence is a cultural one. The problem is that this many people each year want to kill each other, not the means they choose. A firearm doesn't have agency. An incompetent federal government, a certain constitutional amendment, a porous southern border and ~300 million guns already in circulation (a number growing very fast thanks to our president The Worlds Greatest Gun Salesman) make any attempt to do away with firearms in this country a non<x>starter. There's also just not much hope for any policy to reduce gun violence directed at guns themselves. Certain parts of this country (not coincidentally the populations most likely to have guns) also have a long heritage of distrust of government at all levels. My grandfather, your stereotypical rural Scots-Irish guy, once told me a story about how the local police department was giving out free trigger guards. He was going to get one when he noticed that they were taking down the names of everyone who was accepting them and since he didn't think the police or government had any business knowing any guns he may or may not own, he walked away.

To many liberals, that kind of distrust in government is completely absurd. The local PD is not going to confiscate your guns. But like it or not, that kind of distrust is there and any attempt to make policy has to work with that. Registration would, if not deter crime, obviously make it much easier to track who committed a crime. It's also not going to happen. Most gun owners won't comply. They just won't.

What my whole post is getting at is that the effects of guns is pretty murky but even if you don't believe me, attempts to end gun violence by addressing the root causes of crime are far more likely to work for a number of reasons. Gun control isn't happening, spend your political capital elsewhere.
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inferno
Posts: 10,556
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8/12/2015 4:08:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

You cannot solve gun violence until you change the conscious mind of humanity. Case closed.
JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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8/12/2015 6:15:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 4:05:57 PM, thett3 wrote:
My grandfather, your stereotypical rural Scots-Irish guy, once told me a story about how the local police department was giving out free trigger guards. He was going to get one when he noticed that they were taking down the names of everyone who was accepting them and since he didn't think the police or government had any business knowing any guns he may or may not own, he walked away.

To many liberals, that kind of distrust in government is completely absurd. The local PD is not going to confiscate your guns. But like it or not, that kind of distrust is there and any attempt to make policy has to work with that. Registration would, if not deter crime, obviously make it much easier to track who committed a crime. It's also not going to happen. Most gun owners won't comply. They just won't.


This is very true. The thing is that sometimes the local PD will confiscate your firearms. Recently in High River Alberta, Canada there was some severe flooding, and the town was evacuated. The local RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), took it upon themselves to break into evacuated houses and confiscate firearms. I believe the lawsuits over that particular incident are still ongoing and to my knowledge nobody has gotten their property back.

That was an isolated case to be sure. But it does prove that governments can't always be trusted to protect your property. This one story alone will be in the minds of Canadian gun owners for a very long time.

And non-compliance will be a major problem for any anti-gun laws. This was also proven in Canada during the era of the long gun registry. Non-compliance was rampant right across the country. An estimated 65% of firearms owners registered at least one rifle or shotgun, and no more than half of all long guns ended up in the registry.
thett3
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8/12/2015 6:52:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 6:15:02 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
At 8/12/2015 4:05:57 PM, thett3 wrote:
My grandfather, your stereotypical rural Scots-Irish guy, once told me a story about how the local police department was giving out free trigger guards. He was going to get one when he noticed that they were taking down the names of everyone who was accepting them and since he didn't think the police or government had any business knowing any guns he may or may not own, he walked away.

To many liberals, that kind of distrust in government is completely absurd. The local PD is not going to confiscate your guns. But like it or not, that kind of distrust is there and any attempt to make policy has to work with that. Registration would, if not deter crime, obviously make it much easier to track who committed a crime. It's also not going to happen. Most gun owners won't comply. They just won't.


This is very true. The thing is that sometimes the local PD will confiscate your firearms. Recently in High River Alberta, Canada there was some severe flooding, and the town was evacuated. The local RCMP (Royal Canadian Mounted Police), took it upon themselves to break into evacuated houses and confiscate firearms. I believe the lawsuits over that particular incident are still ongoing and to my knowledge nobody has gotten their property back.

That was an isolated case to be sure. But it does prove that governments can't always be trusted to protect your property. This one story alone will be in the minds of Canadian gun owners for a very long time.

Yeah, that's true. Apparently during the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina law enforcement started confiscating weapons as well. So I suppose it CAN happen, although I still think the probability of something like that happening is pretty slim. Like my grandfather, though, I would prefer for any guns I may or may not own not to be known.


And non-compliance will be a major problem for any anti-gun laws. This was also proven in Canada during the era of the long gun registry. Non-compliance was rampant right across the country. An estimated 65% of firearms owners registered at least one rifle or shotgun, and no more than half of all long guns ended up in the registry.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/12/2015 8:00:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I just want to note that I saw a debate on here where the evidence showed that the UK has 1/12 the gun ownership, but has 95% of the suicides.

My point? Don't blame guns for suicides.
My work here is, finally, done.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States. I meant, America has a bad reputation around the World when it comes to gun related violence. People probably imagine that shootouts are commonplace there, & maybe they are!
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bsh1
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8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.
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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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8/13/2015 3:11:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.

Sweden's punishments aren't too harsh, and they're crime is very low.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 3:13:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:11:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.

Sweden's punishments aren't too harsh, and they're crime is very low.

- I didn't get the last part. But, criminality in Sweden is very very high.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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8/13/2015 5:19:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
How would you propose solving gun violence in the U.S.? Let me just give a rundown of some of the stats involved in this issue, courtesy of MJ [http://www.motherjones.com...] and Wikipedia [https://en.wikipedia.org...].

- "[T]he annual cost of gun violence in America exceeds $229 billion."
- Guns are used in 70% of homicides and in more than 50% of suicides
- "[T]he National Rifle Association and other influential gun rights advocates have long pressured political leaders to shut down research related to firearms"
- The U.S. has the highest number of guns per capita in the world

So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States. I meant, America has a bad reputation around the World when it comes to gun related violence. People probably imagine that shootouts are commonplace there, & maybe they are!

If the rate of gun ownership was present in the Mid East, ISIS would not have developed. Its also what keeps your common street gangs from behaving... bombastically in the US, too.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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JMcKinley
Posts: 314
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8/13/2015 7:11:43 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 3:13:24 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:11:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.

Sweden's punishments aren't too harsh, and they're crime is very low.

- I didn't get the last part. But, criminality in Sweden is very very high.

Could you elaborate on that? Perhaps cite a source. A quick glance around the internet leads me to believe that Sweden's murder rate per-capita is 4 times less than the US. Their murder by firearm rate per capita is 5 times less than the US. It enjoys one of the lowest homicide rates in the EU. Their suicide rates are also comparable to the US, Canada and a number of other developed nations.

Although they do have twice the rape rate, and their sex crime rates are higher in general. But I would think that murder and suicide rates would be more relevant to a firearm discussion.

It would appear that gun related crime in Sweden is notably lower despite their so-called "lenient" system.
Geogeer
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8/13/2015 10:33:53 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 7:11:43 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:13:24 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:11:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.

Sweden's punishments aren't too harsh, and they're crime is very low.

- I didn't get the last part. But, criminality in Sweden is very very high.

Could you elaborate on that? Perhaps cite a source. A quick glance around the internet leads me to believe that Sweden's murder rate per-capita is 4 times less than the US. Their murder by firearm rate per capita is 5 times less than the US. It enjoys one of the lowest homicide rates in the EU. Their suicide rates are also comparable to the US, Canada and a number of other developed nations.

Although they do have twice the rape rate, and their sex crime rates are higher in general. But I would think that murder and suicide rates would be more relevant to a firearm discussion.

It would appear that gun related crime in Sweden is notably lower despite their so-called "lenient" system.

Except in the 55 police no-go zones.

http://swedenreport.org...
Yassine
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8/13/2015 10:34:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 7:11:43 PM, JMcKinley wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:13:24 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:11:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:09:58 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:41 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 3:08:08 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/12/2015 2:34:00 AM, bsh1 wrote:
So, since this is clearly a societal issues that needs to be confronted, what is the solution you'd champion?

- Institute really harsh punishments. Criminality flourishes when the law becomes too lenient. Just look at Sweden! More importantly, actively change the "guns" culture of the States.

I sense the sarcasm.

- I was serious, ish.

Sweden's punishments aren't too harsh, and they're crime is very low.

- I didn't get the last part. But, criminality in Sweden is very very high.

Could you elaborate on that? Perhaps cite a source. A quick glance around the internet leads me to believe that Sweden's murder rate per-capita is 4 times less than the US. Their murder by firearm rate per capita is 5 times less than the US. It enjoys one of the lowest homicide rates in the EU. Their suicide rates are also comparable to the US, Canada and a number of other developed nations.

Although they do have twice the rape rate, and their sex crime rates are higher in general. But I would think that murder and suicide rates would be more relevant to a firearm discussion.

It would appear that gun related crime in Sweden is notably lower despite their so-called "lenient" system.

- I don't know what you've been reading. But, Sweden has one of the highest crime rates in the World, especially rape related crimes.

- Here, knock yourself out:
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* http://www.nationmaster.com...
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Greyparrot
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8/13/2015 10:44:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
So Sweden felt itself safe enough to relax their immigration laws and allow muslims to create crime ghettoes all over the place.

Nice.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
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8/13/2015 10:48:09 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 5:19:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

If the rate of gun ownership was present in the Mid East, ISIS would not have developed. Its also what keeps your common street gangs from behaving... bombastically in the US, too.

- One would argue the opposite, seeing as how countries with restrictions on gun circulation, generally, have less presence of organised crimes. In my country of origin for instance, gangs are unheard of, they are like myths. & coincidently, guns are completely banned, even for hunting, except for ceremonial purposes.

- Also, I don't think your analogy is valid. There is a war going on in some parts of the ME. War is an entirely different situation than organised crimes. Nobody knows what would happen if average citizens possessed firearms. If there was a united cause, then maybe that could've helped. I don't think there is, at this point, any such cause.
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Geogeer
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8/13/2015 10:51:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 10:44:57 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
So Sweden felt itself safe enough to relax their immigration laws and allow muslims to create crime ghettoes all over the place.

Nice.

Kinda. More that they stopped having children of their own (like all of Europe) and so they had to import people...

http://www.indexmundi.com...
1harderthanyouthink
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8/13/2015 11:41:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't trust the average person to responsibly handle a gun. I don't think that attempts at outright gun bans are feasible, however. As long as the gun culture is as large as it is in the US, gun ownership will not be a changeable thing through the path of changes in law. Only natural cultural evolution will change the number of guns owned by civilians.

As for suicides: you can't stop someone from killing themselves. If you take away one mode of death, they'll find another. So the answer to that is to address not only the fact that someone who is suicidal has access to tools they can kill themselves with - but to also address the large-scale failure that is US mental healthcare. For example - less than half of adolescents who are diagnosed in the US with psychiatric disorders receive any treatment [1]. Gun-caused death (including suicide) is also most likely to occur between the ages of 15 and 24 [2].

Homicide counts can be curbed by increased access to mental health care as well. And while I am unable to find statistics on homicides that stem from gang violence - more specifically: from gangs who are involved in the sale of illegal drugs: taking away the root of those homicides by either decriminalizing or legalizing drugs will take away their mode of illicitly obtaining money - and therefore a reason to kill off any competing drug gangs. The only numbers I can find would be estimates from city police departments. For example, the amount of Chicago gang-related homicides range between about 50 and 65%, depending on the year [3].

[1] http://www.hhs.gov...
[2] https://cdn.americanprogress.org...
[3] http://www.nytimes.com...
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FaustianJustice
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8/14/2015 1:48:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 10:48:09 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/13/2015 5:19:01 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

If the rate of gun ownership was present in the Mid East, ISIS would not have developed. Its also what keeps your common street gangs from behaving... bombastically in the US, too.

- One would argue the opposite, seeing as how countries with restrictions on gun circulation, generally, have less presence of organised crimes. In my country of origin for instance, gangs are unheard of, they are like myths. & coincidently, guns are completely banned, even for hunting, except for ceremonial purposes.

One could, but I pose to you this: with the number of guns in the US is roughly time and a half the population, that being per capita Americans own 1.5 guns per. In the US we have our good neighborhoods and our bad neighborhoods, mostly due to various types of crime. The same reason that the good folk don't go into the bad 'hoods are due to that statistic.

- Also, I don't think your analogy is valid. There is a war going on in some parts of the ME. War is an entirely different situation than organised crimes. Nobody knows what would happen if average citizens possessed firearms. If there was a united cause, then maybe that could've helped. I don't think there is, at this point, any such cause.

A "war" being fought by... what? Pilfered arms caches. ISIS has no airforce, navy, etc. If the average citizen in the ME possessed firearms, how likely would it be for the roving patrols of ISIS to be able to wander into a populace and experience no resistance? Entertain the notion for a moment. A block of houses in which three of five citizens are armed with similar weapons in which ISIS has armed themselves with. How interested, as an armed oppressor would you be in entering that neighborhood?
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Yassine
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8/14/2015 2:18:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 1:48:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

One could, but I pose to you this: with the number of guns in the US is roughly time and a half the population, that being per capita Americans own 1.5 guns per. In the US we have our good neighborhoods and our bad neighborhoods, mostly due to various types of crime. The same reason that the good folk don't go into the bad 'hoods are due to that statistic.

- I am not particularly against gun ownership in the US. I am against it being taken lightly by the authorities. I think it's pointless to compare the situation in the US with another foreign country! Comparing specific aspects of the situation is fine, but as a whole it constitute a unique set of circumstances.

A "war" being fought by... what? Pilfered arms caches. ISIS has no airforce, navy, etc.

- A war is still a war. Bottom line what counts are soldiers being dead or alive.

If the average citizen in the ME possessed firearms, how likely would it be for the roving patrols of ISIS to be able to wander into a populace and experience no resistance? Entertain the notion for a moment. A block of houses in which three of five citizens are armed with similar weapons in which ISIS has armed themselves with. How interested, as an armed oppressor would you be in entering that neighborhood?

- As I said, if there was a united cause & an organised leadership, then maybe owning firearms would help. The fact is, there is no such cause & no such leadership. Even the Iraqi soldiers are frequently seen fleeing from IS. What do you expect ordinary citizens to do?! In war there is chaos & death. In such circumstances, the only thing the average citizen thinks about is surviving. With a firearm in his hand, all he'll be thinking about is shooting any person who fires at him, friend or foe. His only cause is himself & his loved ones. Without proper leadership, such a scenario would likely end in a nation-scale bloodbath.
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8/14/2015 11:28:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 2:18:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/14/2015 1:48:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

One could, but I pose to you this: with the number of guns in the US is roughly time and a half the population, that being per capita Americans own 1.5 guns per. In the US we have our good neighborhoods and our bad neighborhoods, mostly due to various types of crime. The same reason that the good folk don't go into the bad 'hoods are due to that statistic.

- I am not particularly against gun ownership in the US. I am against it being taken lightly by the authorities. I think it's pointless to compare the situation in the US with another foreign country! Comparing specific aspects of the situation is fine, but as a whole it constitute a unique set of circumstances.

A "war" being fought by... what? Pilfered arms caches. ISIS has no airforce, navy, etc.

- A war is still a war. Bottom line what counts are soldiers being dead or alive.

Assuming ISIS were 'soldiers', you would be correct. Having a gun and a purpose doesn't make you a soldier.

If the average citizen in the ME possessed firearms, how likely would it be for the roving patrols of ISIS to be able to wander into a populace and experience no resistance? Entertain the notion for a moment. A block of houses in which three of five citizens are armed with similar weapons in which ISIS has armed themselves with. How interested, as an armed oppressor would you be in entering that neighborhood?

- As I said, if there was a united cause & an organised leadership, then maybe owning firearms would help. The fact is, there is no such cause & no such leadership. Even the Iraqi soldiers are frequently seen fleeing from IS. What do you expect ordinary citizens to do?!

Heh. American citizen, or ordinary citizen? It seems like you need to make a difference between the two.

In war there is chaos & death. In such circumstances, the only thing the average citizen thinks about is surviving. With a firearm in his hand, all he'll be thinking about is shooting any person who fires at him, friend or foe. His only cause is himself & his loved ones.

Fortunately, with regards to ISIS, the situation is much more stark: the proverbial bad guys aren't your neighbor.

Without proper leadership, such a scenario would likely end in a nation-scale bloodbath.

On both sides, no doubt. But in the results of such a blood bath, the 2 opposing sides would have learned something.
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Yassine
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8/14/2015 1:35:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 11:28:09 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 8/14/2015 2:18:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/14/2015 1:48:54 AM, FaustianJustice wrote:

One could, but I pose to you this: with the number of guns in the US is roughly time and a half the population, that being per capita Americans own 1.5 guns per. In the US we have our good neighborhoods and our bad neighborhoods, mostly due to various types of crime. The same reason that the good folk don't go into the bad 'hoods are due to that statistic.

- I am not particularly against gun ownership in the US. I am against it being taken lightly by the authorities. I think it's pointless to compare the situation in the US with another foreign country! Comparing specific aspects of the situation is fine, but as a whole it constitute a unique set of circumstances.

A "war" being fought by... what? Pilfered arms caches. ISIS has no airforce, navy, etc.

- A war is still a war. Bottom line what counts are soldiers being dead or alive.

Assuming ISIS were 'soldiers', you would be correct. Having a gun and a purpose doesn't make you a soldier.

If the average citizen in the ME possessed firearms, how likely would it be for the roving patrols of ISIS to be able to wander into a populace and experience no resistance? Entertain the notion for a moment. A block of houses in which three of five citizens are armed with similar weapons in which ISIS has armed themselves with. How interested, as an armed oppressor would you be in entering that neighborhood?

- As I said, if there was a united cause & an organised leadership, then maybe owning firearms would help. The fact is, there is no such cause & no such leadership. Even the Iraqi soldiers are frequently seen fleeing from IS. What do you expect ordinary citizens to do?!

Heh. American citizen, or ordinary citizen? It seems like you need to make a difference between the two.

In war there is chaos & death. In such circumstances, the only thing the average citizen thinks about is surviving. With a firearm in his hand, all he'll be thinking about is shooting any person who fires at him, friend or foe. His only cause is himself & his loved ones.

Fortunately, with regards to ISIS, the situation is much more stark: the proverbial bad guys aren't your neighbor.

Without proper leadership, such a scenario would likely end in a nation-scale bloodbath.

On both sides, no doubt. But in the results of such a blood bath, the 2 opposing sides would have learned something.

- Obviously, you have no clue what I am talking about or what's really going on. No offence, you live on the other side of the planet! Maybe next time.
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8/14/2015 2:14:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

One could, but I pose to you this: with the number of guns in the US is roughly time and a half the population, that being per capita Americans own 1.5 guns per. In the US we have our good neighborhoods and our bad neighborhoods, mostly due to various types of crime. The same reason that the good folk don't go into the bad 'hoods are due to that statistic.

- I am not particularly against gun ownership in the US. I am against it being taken lightly by the authorities. I think it's pointless to compare the situation in the US with another foreign country! Comparing specific aspects of the situation is fine, but as a whole it constitute a unique set of circumstances.

A "war" being fought by... what? Pilfered arms caches. ISIS has no airforce, navy, etc.

- A war is still a war. Bottom line what counts are soldiers being dead or alive.

Assuming ISIS were 'soldiers', you would be correct. Having a gun and a purpose doesn't make you a soldier.

If the average citizen in the ME possessed firearms, how likely would it be for the roving patrols of ISIS to be able to wander into a populace and experience no resistance? Entertain the notion for a moment. A block of houses in which three of five citizens are armed with similar weapons in which ISIS has armed themselves with. How interested, as an armed oppressor would you be in entering that neighborhood?

- As I said, if there was a united cause & an organised leadership, then maybe owning firearms would help. The fact is, there is no such cause & no such leadership. Even the Iraqi soldiers are frequently seen fleeing from IS. What do you expect ordinary citizens to do?!

Heh. American citizen, or ordinary citizen? It seems like you need to make a difference between the two.

In war there is chaos & death. In such circumstances, the only thing the average citizen thinks about is surviving. With a firearm in his hand, all he'll be thinking about is shooting any person who fires at him, friend or foe. His only cause is himself & his loved ones.

Fortunately, with regards to ISIS, the situation is much more stark: the proverbial bad guys aren't your neighbor.

Without proper leadership, such a scenario would likely end in a nation-scale bloodbath.

On both sides, no doubt. But in the results of such a blood bath, the 2 opposing sides would have learned something.

- Obviously, you have no clue what I am talking about or what's really going on.

Well, lets find out. Am I correct in stating that men with guns are searching to do evil?
Am I correct in stating that their preferred target on which to do evil are those without guns? What is "really" going on, aside from those with more fanaticism and bullets are attempting to subjugate those without? Boiled down it its simplest form, the problem is not "more guns", the problem is less. Its a population of people whom simply want to be left alone, and will tolerate utter barbarism provided it doesn't happen to them, and they themselves have no means to stop it.

Am I getting warm, or am I still clueless?

No offence, you live on the other side of the planet! Maybe next time.

Were we to apply your criteria, it probably means your assessments on American gun violence would come from an origin of "clueless", then, too. Clearly, I give you a bit more credibility than that.
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Yassine
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8/14/2015 2:51:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 2:14:21 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Well, lets find out. Am I correct in stating that men with guns are searching to do evil?
Am I correct in stating that their preferred target on which to do evil are those without guns? What is "really" going on, aside from those with more fanaticism and bullets are attempting to subjugate those without? Boiled down it its simplest form, the problem is not "more guns", the problem is less. Its a population of people whom simply want to be left alone, and will tolerate utter barbarism provided it doesn't happen to them, and they themselves have no means to stop it.

- It's not that black & white. There are thousands & thousands of religions, sects, ethnicities, races, languages, peoples... in the Middle East. Militarising the population during a freaking chaotic war is disastrous, unless there is a unified cause & a proper leadership.

Am I getting warm, or am I still clueless?

- Nope. Definitely not warm.

Were we to apply your criteria, it probably means your assessments on American gun violence would come from an origin of "clueless", then, too. Clearly, I give you a bit more credibility than that.

- The two situations are different. There is no war in the US. There is excessive Media coverage in the US to the point where there is hardly any difference between someone living in New York, or California, or India in respect to access to information on the nation & its policies. I also know about the US much more than you could possibly know about the Middle East, I speak English! & more importantly, I personally know a lot of americans, living in the US or abroad. That been said, I still don't claim to know well the issue of gun violence in the States. Besides, I don't trust the Media, almost at all.
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FaustianJustice
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8/14/2015 3:31:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 2:51:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/14/2015 2:14:21 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Well, lets find out. Am I correct in stating that men with guns are searching to do evil?
Am I correct in stating that their preferred target on which to do evil are those without guns? What is "really" going on, aside from those with more fanaticism and bullets are attempting to subjugate those without? Boiled down it its simplest form, the problem is not "more guns", the problem is less. Its a population of people whom simply want to be left alone, and will tolerate utter barbarism provided it doesn't happen to them, and they themselves have no means to stop it.

- It's not that black & white. There are thousands & thousands of religions, sects, ethnicities, races, languages, peoples... in the Middle East. Militarising the population during a freaking chaotic war is disastrous, unless there is a unified cause & a proper leadership.

Not militarizing. Arming. The unified cause is self defense. The problem (as seems to be demonstrated in a cycle) is that the people with the guns then don't seem to understand they are for defense of their way of life, not conquering others.
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FaustianJustice
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8/14/2015 3:34:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/14/2015 2:51:17 PM, Yassine wrote:
At 8/14/2015 2:14:21 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:

Well, lets find out. Am I correct in stating that men with guns are searching to do evil?
Am I correct in stating that their preferred target on which to do evil are those without guns? What is "really" going on, aside from those with more fanaticism and bullets are attempting to subjugate those without? Boiled down it its simplest form, the problem is not "more guns", the problem is less. Its a population of people whom simply want to be left alone, and will tolerate utter barbarism provided it doesn't happen to them, and they themselves have no means to stop it.


Am I getting warm, or am I still clueless?

- Nope. Definitely not warm.

Well, then, please, stated the errors I have made..
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