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Hook-Up Culture: Good or Bad?

bsh1
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8/13/2015 12:18:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
INTRO

The hook-up culture, perpetuated by sites like Tinder, Grindr, OkCupid, and more, is a significant, arguably very harmful, social phenomenon. It involves people using websites to meet up for one night stands or casual flings that are solely about sex, not emotional intimacy.

To me, it seems as if there are a variety of problems involved with the HUC, not the least of which is objectification of other people: "It"s telling that swiping has been jocularly incorporated into advertisements for various products, a nod to the notion that, online, the act of choosing consumer brands and sex partners has become interchangeable." [1. http://www.vanityfair.com...] When people and when sex can be treated as commodities rather than as people with feelings and emotional needs, it becomes easier to shrug off the element of intimacy in relationships. It strikes me as supremely unhealthy to engage in quick sex as a routine. Perhaps, on occasion, this is alright--even fun and stress-relieving. But, as a common practice, it denies people on both sides of the relationship the emotional satisfaction that humans crave. Humanity cannot merely content itself with physical pleasure; romance is an essential part of our well-being, physically and mentally, and it's vital that intimacy return to our sex lives.

In many ways, "[i]t is the very abundance of options provided by online dating which may be making men less inclined to treat any particular woman as a 'priority,' according to David Buss, a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin who specializes in the evolution of human sexuality. 'Apps like Tinder and OkCupid give people the impression that there are thousands or millions of potential mates out there,' Buss says. 'One dimension of this is the impact it has on men"s psychology. When there is a surplus of women, or a perceived surplus of women, the whole mating system tends to shift towards short-term dating. Marriages become unstable. Divorces increase. Men don"t have to commit, so they pursue a short-term mating strategy. Men are making that shift, and women are forced to go along with it in order to mate at all." So, this intimacy is harming depth, quality, longevity, and meaningfulness of relationships. Selfishness, not selflessness, is prioritized. And people in these relationships are less happy as a result.

MY THOUGHTS

While I am not saying that everyone should be emotionally intimate with everyone they date, I do think going through prolonged periods (a year or two) without being emotionally and romantically intimate with someone else is unhealthy, and it seems particularly unhealthy to engaged in repeated, casual hook-ups even during short periods. Hook-ups, to me, seem to be things that are fine on a rare occasion, but in no way should they ever become the norm.

But, not only does this phenomenon deprive people of intimacy now, but it's teaching younger generations that a lack of intimacy, that the commodification of sex and love, is fine. That to me is extremely disturbing.

TL;DR/QUESTION

Hook-up culture is on the rise. It is stabbing intimacy in the back, and giving rise to a kind of sexual selfishness and callousness that is unprecedented. I think that this trend is troubling. What are your thoughts on "hook-up" culture (HUC), for or against?
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thett3
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8/13/2015 12:35:30 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I read that same article this morning. Hooking up isn't sex, it's masturbation using someones body. And it's pathetic.

This celebration of everything sexual is one of the things that baffles me the most about modern culture...I just hope I can find a wife who hasn't been ruined by it like so many other people have been and run away to some rural area. This, more than anything, has proven to me that modern western society just isn't for me.
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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
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Geogeer
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8/13/2015 12:44:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:35:30 AM, thett3 wrote:
I read that same article this morning. Hooking up isn't sex, it's masturbation using someones body. And it's pathetic.

This celebration of everything sexual is one of the things that baffles me the most about modern culture...I just hope I can find a wife who hasn't been ruined by it like so many other people have been and run away to some rural area. This, more than anything, has proven to me that modern western society just isn't for me.

+1

It took me into my 30s to find that woman...
debatability
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8/13/2015 12:46:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:18:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:

TL;DR/QUESTION

Hook-up culture is on the rise. It is stabbing intimacy in the back, and giving rise to a kind of sexual selfishness and callousness that is unprecedented. I think that this trend is troubling. What are your thoughts on "hook-up" culture (HUC), for or against?

Sex is something that gets really good when you're with the right person and you recognize that sometimes things will go wrong and that's okay.

When you're hooking up with someone and something goes wrong or the sex just isn't that great, it's kind of awkward because you don't really know the person well enough to get to the point where you're enjoying the sex just as much as your partner.

Beyond emotional and sexual satisfaction, people who hook up a lot are also way more prone to contracting STI's which is a huge downside because STI's certainly are capable of ruining lives.
bsh1
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8/13/2015 12:48:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:44:42 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:35:30 AM, thett3 wrote:
I read that same article this morning. Hooking up isn't sex, it's masturbation using someones body. And it's pathetic.

This celebration of everything sexual is one of the things that baffles me the most about modern culture...I just hope I can find a wife who hasn't been ruined by it like so many other people have been and run away to some rural area. This, more than anything, has proven to me that modern western society just isn't for me.

+1
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Vox_Veritas
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8/13/2015 1:02:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Okay, so even if I wasn't an Evangelical...

This is a culture where people engage in sexual intimacy without any actual existing emotional bond between the two of them. It's extremely shallow and you might as well pay for some time with a prostitute.
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Vox_Veritas
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8/13/2015 1:05:28 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Then again, the OP already covered that.
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YYW
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8/13/2015 1:22:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 12:18:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

The hook-up culture, perpetuated by sites like Tinder, Grindr, OkCupid, and more, is a significant, arguably very harmful, social phenomenon. It involves people using websites to meet up for one night stands or casual flings that are solely about sex, not emotional intimacy.

To be clear, no website and/or app is used only for the purpose of "hooking up." It's more than just that, in every regard. However, the site/app in question is whatever you make it to be. You define your own experience, completely volitionally. You also don't have to hook up at all. Most of the guys I've met up with from Grindr, for example, I have not had sex with.

I also directly disagree with the idea that there is no "intimacy" that with a hook up. Having sex is the most intimate thing that you can do. However, different people want different things from sex. There is no one "true" meaning or set of expectations for what sex "ought" to be. Grindr and Tindr work great for some people, and they are less wonderful for others. However, again, what subjective experience anyone has from any one of those sites/apps is totally defined by what actions the user takes.

I think that non-Grindr users have this idea that it's like you log on, and then exchange body pics and the screw. Surely that does happen (and I've done it), but that's not the only thing that happens and it's not something that "necessarily has to happen." But, the beginning and end of hook up culture-critiques stem from that basic (and empirically false) assumption that of those people who use apps to screw, on balance they are mainly using the app to screw and for no other reason, and that this set of actions is what gives rise to "hook up culture."

Yet, Millennials aren't even hooking up as much as their parents... but "hook up culture" is a "new thing" that is "unique to those who use hook up apps." Or... at least that's how the criticism goes. (See generally: http://time.com..., http://www.washingtonpost.com..., http://www.dailymail.co.uk..., http://nytlive.nytimes.com....)

I mean, there are copious sources which illustrate the same basic point: people are screwing less now than they used too. So, at least relative to previous generations, we are hooking up less, and any "hook up culture" properly framed in historical context must be said to be "on the decline."

The error here (and it's a pretty meaningful one, like, it's the very thing that the OP and Thett explicitly and implicitly did) is assume that the fact that "we talk about sex more, now" means that "we are also having more sex." That's not true, and the data bear that out clearly. There is no "hook up culture." There is a myth of people engaging in sexual activity with reckless disregard... and only a myth. It's not true. And people have always had sex with one another inside and outside of wedlock.

What really bothers people is "exposure" to "sexually charged media." That's what people are actually talking about when they are taking about "hook up culture." There is this (demonstrably false) perception that people are screwing a lot more than they are, and the reason for that perception is manifestly clear: media exposure.

See posts to follow.
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thett3
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8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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8/13/2015 1:36:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
To me, it seems as if there are a variety of problems involved with the HUC, not the least of which is objectification of other people: "It"s telling that swiping has been jocularly incorporated into advertisements for various products, a nod to the notion that, online, the act of choosing consumer brands and sex partners has become interchangeable." [1. http://www.vanityfair.com...] When people and when sex can be treated as commodities rather than as people with feelings and emotional needs, it becomes easier to shrug off the element of intimacy in relationships. It strikes me as supremely unhealthy to engage in quick sex as a routine. Perhaps, on occasion, this is alright--even fun and stress-relieving. But, as a common practice, it denies people on both sides of the relationship the emotional satisfaction that humans crave. Humanity cannot merely content itself with physical pleasure; romance is an essential part of our well-being, physically and mentally, and it's vital that intimacy return to our sex lives.

This line that I've highlighted is what I take the most substantive issue with. The opportunity cost of "hooking up" (to the extent that it even occurs) is not a "loss" of "emotional satisfaction that humans crave."

People don't uniformly feel in the same way, and there are not uniform emotions that attach to sex. Sex means all kinds of different things in different contexts. It can signify a relationship, it can be an act of revenge, it can be an act of conquest or even one of stress relief. The only way that anyone is being denied anything is if they are not getting what they want, and even if they are not getting what they want the reason they're not getting it is because they're.... I believe the technical term is "barking up the wrong tree" in terms of romantic pursuits.

In many ways, "[i]t is the very abundance of options provided by online dating which may be making men less inclined to treat any particular woman as a 'priority,' according to David Buss, a professor of psychology at the University of Texas at Austin who specializes in the evolution of human sexuality.

This is so incredibly dumb. There are, and have always been, a tremendous breadth of options for all people to screw, so this argument is stupid. What matters, really, are how individual people define what they want. If people want commitment to a single person, they can do that. If people want the buffet, they can have that too. It's just that apps and websites make the buffet easier to access. But, again, our generation is still having less sex so there's not a whole lot of evidence to support the claim that "even if the buffet is easier to access" (to continue my food metaphor), that "more people are having more sex." It's just not supported by anything.

I know that he's talking about other partners generally (like associations with other people, rather than only sex, which would be an activity to do with other people), but the point remains. Talk doesn't translate into action, and even if talk occurs, and even if talk occurs more now than it did previously (no evidence for that either) people are *STILL* having less sex now than ever before. No action, or at less relatively less action. The argument that hook up culture exists because of apps falls entirely.

'Divorces increase. Men don"t have to commit, so they pursue a short-term mating strategy. Men are making that shift, and women are forced to go along with it in order to mate at all." So, this intimacy is harming depth, quality, longevity, and meaningfulness of relationships. Selfishness, not selflessness, is prioritized. And people in these relationships are less happy as a result.

If this were true, then gay divorces would be at record highs, and they would be spectacularly higher rates than straight divorces. That is not the case, so that is not true. The reason that gay divorce rates destroy that argument is because gay men have consistently used apps and websites far more than straight people (for logistical and practical reasons), and yet, even gay married people still use grindr. Surprised? No one should be. Flirting isn't cheating. It's flirting.

The sterotypes about women being passive while men are hooking up on apps is also stupid because women use tinder at the same rate that straight men do. Again, this is horrible argumentation.
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thett3
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8/13/2015 1:37:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's not that Tinder or apps have really fundamentally changed much. It broadens the number of partners someone can select from but the real issue that I and a lot of other people have with it is that it's the culmination of the really disturbing trend of society simultaneously becoming hypersexual but also stripping sex of its sacredness. Here you have an app where people decide if they want to talk based essentially on appearance alone. It's the end game of the endless cultural drive to make sex a meaningless, almost anonymous experience. Only then can we be liberated.

It's masturbation using the body of another. Nothing more.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)
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thett3
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8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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8/13/2015 1:40:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.

Why does it sicken you?
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thett3
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8/13/2015 1:42:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:40:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.

Why does it sicken you?

Because premarital sex is wrong. At least, sex outside of a committed relationship is
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
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8/13/2015 1:44:26 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:42:08 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.

Why does it sicken you?

Because premarital sex is wrong. At least, sex outside of a committed relationship is

Why is premarital sex wrong?
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bsh1
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8/13/2015 1:47:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:22:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:18:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

The hook-up culture, perpetuated by sites like Tinder, Grindr, OkCupid, and more, is a significant, arguably very harmful, social phenomenon. It involves people using websites to meet up for one night stands or casual flings that are solely about sex, not emotional intimacy.

I also directly disagree with the idea that there is no "intimacy" that with a hook up. Having sex is the most intimate thing that you can do.

I really disagree with this statement. Sex may be "physically" intimate, but it is in not necessarily "emotionally" intimate. You, yourself, have noted that there is a distinction between "making love" and "f*cking" someone. I don't think the latter is really romantic or intimate, because it necessarily lacks the love and depth of connection that intimacy implies. Ultimately, "making love" is the most intimate thing a person can do, and "hooking-up" doesn't even compare. It certainly doesn't sate the need for romance and emotional connectivity that people have.

But, even if sex is intimate, then having hook ups still seems negative to me. It implies that one is too easily intimate with other people, which makes their intimacy worthless. If someone is intimate with everyone, they're intimate with no one, and they cannot truly share special kind of intimate bonds with any one person.

However, different people want different things from sex. There is no one "true" meaning or set of expectations for what sex "ought" to be.

I both agree and disagree here. While I agree that there is no one model for sex, and that while hooking up may be worthwhile once in the bluest of blue moons, I disagree that hooking up on a regular or semi-regular basis is okay or healthy. I think, again, it commodifies sex, and that is not something that anyone should be doing. If sex really is intimate, as you claim, than surely its commodification robs it of whatever intimacy it has. Even so, I think a culture has evolved, as the article details, that may make it hard to escape hooking up if you're in certain circles.

I think that non-Grindr users have this idea that it's like you log on, and then exchange body pics and the screw. Surely that does happen (and I've done it), but that's not the only thing that happens and it's not something that "necessarily has to happen."

It doesn't have to happen, but I think it's tragic that it does happen. Sex commercialized like this only devalues the act, and it makes it less meaningful when you finally have it with someone who matters. If you only have sex with a small handful of people, it is more special and rare, and it's rarity underscores the importance those people have to you. The more people you're with, the less special the act is in general.

Yet, Millennials aren't even hooking up as much as their parents... but "hook up culture" is a "new thing" that is "unique to those who use hook up apps." Or... at least that's how the criticism goes. (See generally: http://time.com... etc.)

The article I cited does critique that study very briefly, I believe. But, without wanting to become enmeshed in a stats debate, I would note that the study mentioned also concludes Millennials have more "casual" sex than previous generations. [http://www.latimes.com...] As much as I object to having lots of sexual partners, I object to casual sex more. If you form a lot of close relationships and have sex, that's one thing. Casual sex is another, and our generation is guilty of doing that more than others. So, strictly speaking, we are "hooking up" more, because our interactions are less intimate, and the amount of sex we're having isn't significantly less than before.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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8/13/2015 1:48:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now.

^ This.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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FourTrouble
Posts: 12,777
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8/13/2015 1:51:20 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:47:29 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:22:43 AM, YYW wrote:
I also directly disagree with the idea that there is no "intimacy" that with a hook up. Having sex is the most intimate thing that you can do.

I really disagree with this statement. Sex may be "physically" intimate, but it is in not necessarily "emotionally" intimate.

I strongly agree with YYW on this. And strongly disagree with the idea that sex isn't "emotionally" intimate. Sex is inherently emotional, regardless whether people admit that to themselves.
thett3
Posts: 14,382
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8/13/2015 1:51:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:44:26 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:42:08 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.

Why does it sicken you?

Because premarital sex is wrong. At least, sex outside of a committed relationship is

Why is premarital sex wrong?

That's a moral conviction I have. Maybe I'll get into it at some point, but it's really not something I'm going to budge from.

I guess I am being very much "holier than thou" on this issue because I've had a girlfriend throughout college so I've never had the opportunity to try out this sort of thing...but I really don't think it's for me.
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"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

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: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
thett3
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8/13/2015 1:56:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think YYW does bring up a good point that this is kind of a moral panic over nothing though. College students have been screwing like rabbits for a long time now (there's even a reference to I think Laertes fornicating with women in college in Hamlet), it's nothing new and anyone who thinks that this didn't happen pretty much non<x>stop during the 60's for crying out loud is out of their mind.

I guess what makes this so wrong in the minds of a lot of people is that this kind of behavior is now so easy...you don't even have to buy a woman a drink anymore. "Hooking up...theres an app for that"
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
bsh1
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8/13/2015 1:57:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:51:20 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:47:29 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:22:43 AM, YYW wrote:
I also directly disagree with the idea that there is no "intimacy" that with a hook up. Having sex is the most intimate thing that you can do.

I really disagree with this statement. Sex may be "physically" intimate, but it is in not necessarily "emotionally" intimate.

I strongly agree with YYW on this. And strongly disagree with the idea that sex isn't "emotionally" intimate. Sex is inherently emotional, regardless whether people admit that to themselves.

Emotions may become entangled in it. But that doesn't make it "emotional" at least not in the sense I am talking about. Having someone over for one night may not build an emotional connection more enduring, deep, or meaningful than meeting someone for a beer after work. That's not romance, it's not emotional connectivity, it's not meaningful, it's f*cking for the sole purpose of getting laid. That's it.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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8/13/2015 1:58:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Even if it's not the norm, we can still debate whether it's bad where it does exist.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

Follow the DDOlympics
: http://www.debate.org...

Open Debate Topics Project: http://www.debate.org...
YYW
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8/13/2015 1:59:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:47:29 AM, bsh1 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:22:43 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 12:18:09 AM, bsh1 wrote:
INTRO

The hook-up culture, perpetuated by sites like Tinder, Grindr, OkCupid, and more, is a significant, arguably very harmful, social phenomenon. It involves people using websites to meet up for one night stands or casual flings that are solely about sex, not emotional intimacy.

I also directly disagree with the idea that there is no "intimacy" that with a hook up. Having sex is the most intimate thing that you can do.

I really disagree with this statement. Sex may be "physically" intimate, but it is in not necessarily "emotionally" intimate. You, yourself, have noted that there is a distinction between "making love" and "f*cking" someone.

Of course I have, but that doesn't mean that hook ups have no intimacy. It's just a different kind of intimacy. It's not like if you're not in a committed relationship then there is no intimacy. That's just not how sex works. If you are naked in a bed with someone... that is seriously intimate.

But, even if sex is intimate, then having hook ups still seems negative to me. It implies that one is too easily intimate with other people, which makes their intimacy worthless. If someone is intimate with everyone, they're intimate with no one, and they cannot truly share special kind of intimate bonds with any one person.

Sure, and different people have different expectations, wants and needs relating to sex. You have one set of needs, other people have other sets of needs. And unless you're screwing everyone else on earth (well, you're likely to go to jail if you do that for any number of reasons), then the argument that "if you're intimate with everyone then you're intimate with no one." really holds no merit.

I agree that intimacy implies not having sex with all the rest of the world, but the issue is intimacy at one particular time. Like, an orgy is not intimate because you're with a whole bunch of other people. But, having sex with a whole bunch of strangers... sure you can be intimate with them for the time you're fvcking.

However, different people want different things from sex. There is no one "true" meaning or set of expectations for what sex "ought" to be.

I both agree and disagree here. While I agree that there is no one model for sex, and that while hooking up may be worthwhile once in the bluest of blue moons, I disagree that hooking up on a regular or semi-regular basis is okay or healthy.

It might not be healthy for *you* but again different people want different things.

I think, again, it commodifies sex, and that is not something that anyone should be doing. If sex really is intimate, as you claim, than surely its commodification robs it of whatever intimacy it has. Even so, I think a culture has evolved, as the article details, that may make it hard to escape hooking up if you're in certain circles.

I think sex means what people want it to mean (because it does), and what other people do in terms of sex has no impact on me so -as a general rule- between those who can give consent I don't care what other people do. I care what I do, and what my boyfriend would do (if and only if I was in a committed relationship).

I think that non-Grindr users have this idea that it's like you log on, and then exchange body pics and the screw. Surely that does happen (and I've done it), but that's not the only thing that happens and it's not something that "necessarily has to happen."

It doesn't have to happen, but I think it's tragic that it does happen. Sex commercialized like this only devalues the act, and it makes it less meaningful when you finally have it with someone who matters. If you only have sex with a small handful of people, it is more special and rare, and it's rarity underscores the importance those people have to you. The more people you're with, the less special the act is in general.

Sex has been commercialized since the 1940s. This is not new. And I don't think that the events you're describing support the idea that sex is commercialized, either, at least as the word "commercialized" is defined. (See generally the definition of "commercialized" meaning "to use (something) as an opportunity to earn money." Source: http://www.merriam-webster.com....)

Yet, Millennials aren't even hooking up as much as their parents... but "hook up culture" is a "new thing" that is "unique to those who use hook up apps." Or... at least that's how the criticism goes. (See generally: http://time.com... etc.)

The article I cited does critique that study very briefly, I believe. But, without wanting to become enmeshed in a stats debate, I would note that the study mentioned also concludes Millennials have more "casual" sex than previous generations. [http://www.latimes.com...] As much as I object to having lots of sexual partners, I object to casual sex more. If you form a lot of close relationships and have sex, that's one thing. Casual sex is another, and our generation is guilty of doing that more than others. So, strictly speaking, we are "hooking up" more, because our interactions are less intimate, and the amount of sex we're having isn't significantly less than before.

There are conflicting data on what you just said, and I would disagree with it. Although, for purposes of this discussion, Millennials are still having less sex overall, so your data suggests that what's really changed here is that people are more reluctant to be in relationships. I think that's, in reality, what you're concerned about.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
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8/13/2015 2:02:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
It's not the type of thing I'd take part in, but it's something I'm absolutely apathetic about in regards to other people taking part in such activities.
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And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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thett3
Posts: 14,382
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8/13/2015 2:02:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
my roommate had a girl over that he met on Tinder last semester. He had no clue how to treat a guest and was really unintentionally disrespectful the whole time she was hanging out with us...she had sex with him anyway
DDO Vice President

#StandwithBossy

#UnbanTheMadman

#BetOnThett

"Don't quote me, ever." -Max

"My name is max. I'm not a big fan of slacks"- Max rapping

"Walmart should have the opportunity to bribe a politician to it's agenda" -Max

"Thett, you're really good at convincing people you're a decent person"-tulle

"You fit the character of Regina George quite nicely"- Sam

: At 11/12/2016 11:49:40 PM, Raisor wrote:
: thett was right
YYW
Posts: 36,426
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8/13/2015 2:03:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:51:37 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:44:26 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:42:08 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:40:03 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:39:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:37:29 AM, YYW wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:30:31 AM, thett3 wrote:
@YYW

The idea of the "hookup culture" isn't just a matter of numbers, it's a matter of the kind of sex that's happening. Earlier generations couldn't have the kind of swipe and screw type sexual experiences we can have now. I'm not surprised that earlier generations could've had even more sex because the stigma around premarital sex has been gone for a while now.

But that just confirms my opinion. It's not for me. I would be perfectly willing to concede that the hypersexualization of society is nothing new, but that doesn't change my disgust with it one bit.

There is "perception" and then there's "reality."

Reality says that there are fewer hook ups now than ever before, yet hook-up culture criticism says that hookups are a new and unique thing because of contemporary technology. (read: stuff that didn't exist in our parents time.)

Except...that's not my issue with it. I'm not making the argument that this is anything new.

I don't care if people in my parents generations behaved like animals too. My parents didn't, I won't, and it sickens me to see this so celebrated by the culture.

Why does it sicken you?

Because premarital sex is wrong. At least, sex outside of a committed relationship is

Why is premarital sex wrong?

That's a moral conviction I have. Maybe I'll get into it at some point, but it's really not something I'm going to budge from.

I guess I am being very much "holier than thou" on this issue because I've had a girlfriend throughout college so I've never had the opportunity to try out this sort of thing...but I really don't think it's for me.

It's fine if you don't want to do some things... but there is a difference between "I don't want to do X." and "You shouldn't do X because X is wrong."

It's also fine to be moralistic.... you and bsh1 are both far more culturally conservative than I am. That's ok, but the fact that you don't want to do something doesn't mean that it's bad that other people are doing something that neither of you want to be a part of.
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FourTrouble
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8/13/2015 2:05:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 1:58:15 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Even if it's not the norm, we can still debate whether it's bad where it does exist.

I think any legal and consensual sexual activities are good for the people engaging in such activities.
ToddsAmerica
Posts: 28
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8/13/2015 2:06:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/13/2015 2:05:05 AM, FourTrouble wrote:
At 8/13/2015 1:58:15 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Even if it's not the norm, we can still debate whether it's bad where it does exist.

I think any legal and consensual sexual activities are good for the people engaging in such activities.

What about shooting up heroine?