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Forced at gun point to pay for EBT cards

Lee308
Posts: 53
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8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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8/26/2015 4:22:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A few questions:
1. What does the woman's race have to do with anything?
2. What would you prefer she buy with the EBT card?
3. Do you know how much of your money actually contributes to that specific EBT card? (Hint: start withhow much you paid in state and federal taxes last year)
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/26/2015 10:37:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Don't hate the playa, hate the game my nigga.
stargate
Posts: 506
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8/26/2015 10:40:49 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

That is why you should have had a gun, or know how tp defend yourself.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/26/2015 10:57:46 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 10:40:49 AM, stargate wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

That is why you should have had a gun, or know how tp defend yourself.

He's speaking metaphorically.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/26/2015 11:00:39 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 4:22:50 AM, Burzmali wrote:
A few questions:
1. What does the woman's race have to do with anything?
2. What would you prefer she buy with the EBT card?
3. Do you know how much of your money actually contributes to that specific EBT card? (Hint: start withhow much you paid in state and federal taxes last year)

She should walk up to me and pay her portion of what the fvck she owes me, probably 1/1000 of a cent of 1/1000 of a cent of what I pay in taxes. I'll take a blowjob as compensation.
stargate
Posts: 506
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8/26/2015 11:14:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 10:57:46 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 8/26/2015 10:40:49 AM, stargate wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

That is why you should have had a gun, or know how tp defend yourself.

He's speaking metaphorically.

I know I mean if it happens.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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8/26/2015 11:17:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 11:14:34 AM, stargate wrote:
At 8/26/2015 10:57:46 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 8/26/2015 10:40:49 AM, stargate wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

That is why you should have had a gun, or know how tp defend yourself.

He's speaking metaphorically.

I know I mean if it happens.

No, you don't know. If you did your response would make sense. It seems like you should look up the definition of metaphor and maybe develop your reading comprehension skills so you can spot metaphors easier.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/26/2015 4:34:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Because we are trying to have a society here. Don't like it, go on.... Leave.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/26/2015 4:47:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 4:34:41 PM, TBR wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Because we are trying to have a society here. Don't like it, go on.... Leave.

Obvious trolling/racism aside from the OP, are you suggesting that outrage is unwarranted towards people on welfare who spend money frivolously and use tax dollars poorly (regarding the food choices)?
My work here is, finally, done.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/26/2015 4:58:50 PM
Posted: 1 year ago

Obvious trolling/racism aside from the OP, are you suggesting that outrage is unwarranted towards people on welfare who spend money frivolously and use tax dollars poorly (regarding the food choices)?

Well, I am. The "frivolous" nature of eating and all. Picking out some insistence of anyone using food stamps for the purchase of junk food is to miss the mountain of purchases used to subsist. They are not having a grand old time eating on the government dime.

The program has been incredibly successful, an economic net gain, costs are in-line, and corruption much lower than some assume.

I have ZERO problems with food stamps.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/26/2015 5:10:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 4:58:50 PM, TBR wrote:

Obvious trolling/racism aside from the OP, are you suggesting that outrage is unwarranted towards people on welfare who spend money frivolously and use tax dollars poorly (regarding the food choices)?

Well, I am. The "frivolous" nature of eating and all. Picking out some insistence of anyone using food stamps for the purchase of junk food is to miss the mountain of purchases used to subsist. They are not having a grand old time eating on the government dime.

The program has been incredibly successful, an economic net gain, costs are in-line, and corruption much lower than some assume.

I have ZERO problems with food stamps.

All of that is well and good, but to be clear, are you saying that the appearance of fraud and/or waste is not something to be upset over, either at the system or the individual?
I have seen people use/defraud EBT as a cashier before. I know they bought food for others for cash, or bought lobster and steak. I have seen many many more buy things you'd expect. Are you saying I can't be upset that the former happens, or think that this could be further prevented?
My work here is, finally, done.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/26/2015 5:14:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
All of that is well and good, but to be clear, are you saying that the appearance of fraud and/or waste is not something to be upset over, either at the system or the individual?
I have seen people use/defraud EBT as a cashier before. I know they bought food for others for cash, or bought lobster and steak. I have seen many many more buy things you'd expect. Are you saying I can't be upset that the former happens, or think that this could be further prevented?

Buying the occasional "treat" is not fraud. Even spending every dollar poorly. That is an issue of education on how best to shop. (also the problem of food deserts - but that's a big topic). The actual fraud is very low. That you see it occasionally may be frustrating, but its just not that big a deal. The "they are getting something I'm not" argument ignores that its not a picnicking being poor. I would rather be thankful, and thankful that the majority of people using the program are feeding a family.
Lee308
Posts: 53
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8/27/2015 1:24:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Ya, its just chump change, to the poster that said its a treat, I have seen DOZENS of black females buying junk food with an EBT card. They should only be able to buy basics. Beans, rice , salt, sugar, flour, hamburger. Thats it! If you want a treat, GET A JOB !

Not once have a seen a white women doing it. Oh, and I am a racist thanks to Affirmative Action!
Then there is this:

For a guy and his girlfriend with two kids all you have to do is follow these proven steps:
1. Don't marry her!
2. Always use your mom's address to get your mail.
3. The guy buys a house.
4. The guy rents out house to his girlfriend with his 2 kids.
5. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for a 3 bedroom home.
6. Girlfriend signs up for Obamacare so guy doesn't have to pay for family insurance.
7. Girlfriend gets to go to college for free being a single mother
8. Girlfriend gets $600 a month for food stamps.
9. Girlfriend gets a free cell phone.
10. Girlfriend get free utilities.
11. Guy moves into home, but continues to use moms address for his mail.
12. Girlfriend claims one kid and guy claims the other kid on their tax forms. Now both get to claim head of household at $1800 credit.
13. Girlfriend gets $1,800 a month disability for being "crazy" or having a "bad back" and never has to work again.
This plan is perfectly legal and is being executed now by millions of people.
A married couple with a stay at home mom yields $0 dollars.
An unmarried couple with stay at home mom nets $21,600 disability + $10,800 free housing + $6,000 free Obamacare + $6,000 free food + $4,800 free utilities + $6,000 Pell grant money to spend + $12,000 a year in college tuition free from Pell grant + $8,800 tax benefit for being a single mother = $75,000 a year in benefits!
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/27/2015 5:47:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 1:24:31 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Ya, its just chump change, to the poster that said its a treat, I have seen DOZENS of black females buying junk food with an EBT card. They should only be able to buy basics. Beans, rice , salt, sugar, flour, hamburger. Thats it! If you want a treat, GET A JOB !

Not once have a seen a white women doing it. Oh, and I am a racist thanks to Affirmative Action!
Then there is this:

For a guy and his girlfriend with two kids all you have to do is follow these proven steps:
1. Don't marry her!
2. Always use your mom's address to get your mail.
3. The guy buys a house.
4. The guy rents out house to his girlfriend with his 2 kids.
5. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for a 3 bedroom home.
6. Girlfriend signs up for Obamacare so guy doesn't have to pay for family insurance.
7. Girlfriend gets to go to college for free being a single mother
8. Girlfriend gets $600 a month for food stamps.
9. Girlfriend gets a free cell phone.
10. Girlfriend get free utilities.
11. Guy moves into home, but continues to use moms address for his mail.
12. Girlfriend claims one kid and guy claims the other kid on their tax forms. Now both get to claim head of household at $1800 credit.
13. Girlfriend gets $1,800 a month disability for being "crazy" or having a "bad back" and never has to work again.
This plan is perfectly legal and is being executed now by millions of people.
A married couple with a stay at home mom yields $0 dollars.
An unmarried couple with stay at home mom nets $21,600 disability + $10,800 free housing + $6,000 free Obamacare + $6,000 free food + $4,800 free utilities + $6,000 Pell grant money to spend + $12,000 a year in college tuition free from Pell grant + $8,800 tax benefit for being a single mother = $75,000 a year in benefits!

There is very little reality in your list. Keep hating the poor, I'm sure you are getting something out of it.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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8/27/2015 6:52:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Forced at gun point? You say these things as if they are true. Then you let yourself gain momentum from it. Once again I don't necessarily disagree with your point. You just sound so stupid making it. I mean, are you seriously asking us why your held at gun point to pay for this "worthless human trash to buy junk"? Or do you just want to rip on black people?
Lee308
Posts: 53
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8/27/2015 9:52:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 6:52:05 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Forced at gun point? You say these things as if they are true. Then you let yourself gain momentum from it. Once again I don't necessarily disagree with your point. You just sound so stupid making it. I mean, are you seriously asking us why your held at gun point to pay for this "worthless human trash to buy junk"? Or do you just want to rip on black people?

What happens if I refuse to pay my state and federal income tax, and then I refuse to be arrested?
Df0512
Posts: 966
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8/28/2015 3:26:17 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 9:52:29 PM, Lee308 wrote:
At 8/27/2015 6:52:05 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Forced at gun point? You say these things as if they are true. Then you let yourself gain momentum from it. Once again I don't necessarily disagree with your point. You just sound so stupid making it. I mean, are you seriously asking us why your held at gun point to pay for this "worthless human trash to buy junk"? Or do you just want to rip on black people?

What happens if I refuse to pay my state and federal income tax, and then I refuse to be arrested?

Then you'll be held at gun point for refusing to be arrested. So we're just going to go with ripping on black people then.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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8/28/2015 11:01:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 9:52:29 PM, Lee308 wrote:
At 8/27/2015 6:52:05 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 8/26/2015 1:58:43 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Just watched a BLACK female, 20 something, with sparkly finger nails and a newer car than mine, buy cokes, chips, cookies, candy bars and beef jerky with an EBT card.
WHY should I be FORCED AT GUN POINT to pay for this worthless human trash to buy junk?

Forced at gun point? You say these things as if they are true. Then you let yourself gain momentum from it. Once again I don't necessarily disagree with your point. You just sound so stupid making it. I mean, are you seriously asking us why your held at gun point to pay for this "worthless human trash to buy junk"? Or do you just want to rip on black people?

What happens if I refuse to pay my state and federal income tax, and then I refuse to be arrested?

So.... THAT is where you are forced at gun point, and the remainder of it is simple grousing about how that money is spent. Just as I, then should be able to state that I am forced at gun point to support military action I don't like, subsidiaries to other people that shouldn't happen, foreign aid to those I don't think deserve it, etc etc.

You have a complaint about how tax money is spent. Take a number, join the queue.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Lee308
Posts: 53
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8/28/2015 12:15:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
We have something in common.

Federal taxes should ONLY pay for government operations INSIDE the USSA. (I am a closed border libertarian) All military to reside in the USSA until time of declared war.
(special ops being the exception for recon/intel) High tariffs on imports.

State taxes should ONLY be spent inside the state for the good of USSA citizens, not illegals.

If state taxpayers do not want to pay leeches to buy candy/cookies/crack with their EBT cards, they should (by vote) be free to stop it and let the leeches move out of that state.

All single mother kids would be removed and put in orphanages until time the mother can buy them out with taxes or they reach 17.

Freedom is a hard master.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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8/28/2015 2:50:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 12:15:58 PM, Lee308 wrote:
We have something in common.

Federal taxes should ONLY pay for government operations INSIDE the USSA. (I am a closed border libertarian) All military to reside in the USSA until time of declared war.
(special ops being the exception for recon/intel) High tariffs on imports.

State taxes should ONLY be spent inside the state for the good of USSA citizens, not illegals.

If state taxpayers do not want to pay leeches to buy candy/cookies/crack with their EBT cards, they should (by vote) be free to stop it and let the leeches move out of that state.

I have a different resolution. I don't mind EBT being spent on curious food purchases, however I feel the agency should enlist private enterprise to route out and cut fraud, 10 percent of the total money (for the year) not going to the fraudster to be paid by the investigator, and the rest withheld to pay for the transgression.

All single mother kids would be removed and put in orphanages until time the mother can buy them out with taxes or they reach 17.

Might want to flesh this out and rephrase it. ;) A double mother kid would be quite different (at least biologically), and there are a lot of single parents in general, mother and father.


Freedom is a hard master.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,238
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8/28/2015 2:51:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 12:15:58 PM, Lee308 wrote:
We have something in common.

Federal taxes should ONLY pay for government operations INSIDE the USSA. (I am a closed border libertarian) All military to reside in the USSA until time of declared war.
(special ops being the exception for recon/intel) High tariffs on imports.

State taxes should ONLY be spent inside the state for the good of USSA citizens, not illegals.

If state taxpayers do not want to pay leeches to buy candy/cookies/crack with their EBT cards, they should (by vote) be free to stop it and let the leeches move out of that state.

All single mother kids would be removed and put in orphanages until time the mother can buy them out with taxes or they reach 17.

Freedom is a hard master.

correction, paid TO the investigator (think finders fee), not paid by.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/28/2015 2:52:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 5:47:50 AM, TBR wrote:
At 8/27/2015 1:24:31 AM, Lee308 wrote:
Ya, its just chump change, to the poster that said its a treat, I have seen DOZENS of black females buying junk food with an EBT card. They should only be able to buy basics. Beans, rice , salt, sugar, flour, hamburger. Thats it! If you want a treat, GET A JOB !

Not once have a seen a white women doing it. Oh, and I am a racist thanks to Affirmative Action!
Then there is this:

For a guy and his girlfriend with two kids all you have to do is follow these proven steps:
1. Don't marry her!
2. Always use your mom's address to get your mail.
3. The guy buys a house.
4. The guy rents out house to his girlfriend with his 2 kids.
5. Section 8 will pay $900 a month for a 3 bedroom home.
6. Girlfriend signs up for Obamacare so guy doesn't have to pay for family insurance.
7. Girlfriend gets to go to college for free being a single mother
8. Girlfriend gets $600 a month for food stamps.
9. Girlfriend gets a free cell phone.
10. Girlfriend get free utilities.
11. Guy moves into home, but continues to use moms address for his mail.
12. Girlfriend claims one kid and guy claims the other kid on their tax forms. Now both get to claim head of household at $1800 credit.
13. Girlfriend gets $1,800 a month disability for being "crazy" or having a "bad back" and never has to work again.
This plan is perfectly legal and is being executed now by millions of people.
A married couple with a stay at home mom yields $0 dollars.
An unmarried couple with stay at home mom nets $21,600 disability + $10,800 free housing + $6,000 free Obamacare + $6,000 free food + $4,800 free utilities + $6,000 Pell grant money to spend + $12,000 a year in college tuition free from Pell grant + $8,800 tax benefit for being a single mother = $75,000 a year in benefits!

There is very little reality in your list. Keep hating the poor, I'm sure you are getting something out of it.

There is actually a bit of truth to it, but I don't think as much as he thinks.
Poor families with children, very much, do benefit tax-wise by not being married, but the tax credits he is referring to, mostly, requires the mother to work.
I cannot comment on the disability, but I very much doubt that the tax credits would be that high. If anything, in his example, the tax credit would only be $1,000.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/28/2015 3:44:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/26/2015 5:14:25 PM, TBR wrote:
All of that is well and good, but to be clear, are you saying that the appearance of fraud and/or waste is not something to be upset over, either at the system or the individual?
I have seen people use/defraud EBT as a cashier before. I know they bought food for others for cash, or bought lobster and steak. I have seen many many more buy things you'd expect. Are you saying I can't be upset that the former happens, or think that this could be further prevented?

Buying the occasional "treat" is not fraud.
I didn't say the occasional treat is fraud. I said the fraud was fraud (i.e. the selling of food stamps).
And, we don't know how often this occasional treat is bought, do we? And, occasional treat or not, I do not believe spending $150 on crab legs is acceptable.

To be clear, I am not referring to an occassional treat of a candy bar or bag of chips on an otherwise "acceptable" order. I am referring to spending $40 on soda and chips and snacks on a $100 order.

Even spending every dollar poorly. That is an issue of education on how best to shop. (also the problem of food deserts - but that's a big topic).
Yes, spending poorly is a problem. Buying a pizza from the deli is three times more expensive than buying frozen ones.
I don't fault EBT users for buying in similar means to general populace, like buying Lunchables or similar crap, where you get far more bang for the buck actually making sandwiches, but whatever.
I do take issue that EBT users rarely, if ever, even use coupons, as in store coupons from the ad and advertised on the shelf. But, as you said, this is likely stupidity, and I've always said there is a reason why poor people are poor, and stupidity is often the reason.

The actual fraud is very low. That you see it occasionally may be frustrating, but its just not that big a deal.
To be honest, fraud is insidious, and there is no real way to measure it unless it is caught. I would wager it is more rampant than you think, but it is just hard to prove (and I am more referring to receiving benefits, or more than they should, rather than misusing them). For example, tipped employees or "roommates".

The "they are getting something I'm not" argument ignores that its not a picnicking being poor.
Neither is being working poor, and not having these "treats" a picnic. Yeah, it sucks being poor, but it also sucks to work long hours to support your family as best as you can, and see these other people having more treats than you, or having more time off than you, or a whole host of other intangibles that add to the frustration.
But, I agree, it isn't that good of an argument. However, the old adage, beggars can't be choosers comes to mind.

I would rather be thankful, and thankful that the majority of people using the program are feeding a family.
I would rather see that the money is spent wisely, utilizing deals. For example, instead of buying the party/family size bag of chips, buy two slightly smaller size bags for the same amount. Or, buy the brand of lunchmeat, cereal, or whatever that is on sale that week, especially when the brand you are buying isn't superior in any way.

Does your state have WIC vouchers?
I guess part of my anger is that there is a welfare program that ensures good food is bought. These vouchers force people to buy certain things, and only these things. For example, one gallon of milk. They can get whatever brand, but it is either milk or nothing.
This program eliminates the ability to buy "treats' and whatnot, but more importantly, ensures nutritious products are bought. Personally, I would like to see this expanded and ebt/food stamps restricted. If people need help, they need help, and this would ensure they don't waste their money on crap food. After all, shouldn't we be trying to ensure they get nutrition, as opposed to just something to just fill their stomach?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/28/2015 3:46:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/27/2015 1:24:31 AM, Lee308 wrote:

12. Girlfriend claims one kid and guy claims the other kid on their tax forms. Now both get to claim head of household at $1800 credit.

You know this is illegal, right?
My work here is, finally, done.
TBR
Posts: 9,991
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8/28/2015 3:59:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
All of that is well and good, but to be clear, are you saying that the appearance of fraud and/or waste is not something to be upset over, either at the system or the individual?
I have seen people use/defraud EBT as a cashier before. I know they bought food for others for cash, or bought lobster and steak. I have seen many many more buy things you'd expect. Are you saying I can't be upset that the former happens, or think that this could be further prevented?

Buying the occasional "treat" is not fraud.
I didn't say the occasional treat is fraud. I said the fraud was fraud (i.e. the selling of food stamps).
EBT fraud is very low. Lower than 3% by most calculations. Even where there IS fraud, it is still a net benefit. The often cited "1 dollar in SNAP benefits generates $1.73 economic activity". Military spending fraud is bigger, and a DRAG society. We don't see people jumping on every military contractor because fraud exists in the system.

And, we don't know how often this occasional treat is bought, do we? And, occasional treat or not, I do not believe spending $150 on crab legs is acceptable.


To be clear, I am not referring to an occassional treat of a candy bar or bag of chips on an otherwise "acceptable" order. I am referring to spending $40 on soda and chips and snacks on a $100 order.

They do. So what? Point is, its just not your business. Don't worry about it. They may be having a special dinner, they may be blowing their budget. Its none of your concern.

Even spending every dollar poorly. That is an issue of education on how best to shop. (also the problem of food deserts - but that's a big topic).
Yes, spending poorly is a problem. Buying a pizza from the deli is three times more expensive than buying frozen ones.
I don't fault EBT users for buying in similar means to general populace, like buying Lunchables or similar crap, where you get far more bang for the buck actually making sandwiches, but whatever.
I do take issue that EBT users rarely, if ever, even use coupons, as in store coupons from the ad and advertised on the shelf. But, as you said, this is likely stupidity, and I've always said there is a reason why poor people are poor, and stupidity is often the reason.

The actual fraud is very low. That you see it occasionally may be frustrating, but its just not that big a deal.
To be honest, fraud is insidious, and there is no real way to measure it unless it is caught. I would wager it is more rampant than you think, but it is just hard to prove (and I am more referring to receiving benefits, or more than they should, rather than misusing them). For example, tipped employees or "roommates".
I don't disagree that it can be hard to find a correct number. Generally it is low and acceptable.


The "they are getting something I'm not" argument ignores that its not a picnicking being poor.
Neither is being working poor, and not having these "treats" a picnic. Yeah, it sucks being poor, but it also sucks to work long hours to support your family as best as you can, and see these other people having more treats than you, or having more time off than you, or a whole host of other intangibles that add to the frustration.
Why worry about what they have? I understand it sucks, but do you look at the person buying a lobster who pays cash and get upset? Call them out on it? Think they "worked harder" than you?

But, I agree, it isn't that good of an argument. However, the old adage, beggars can't be choosers comes to mind.

I would rather be thankful, and thankful that the majority of people using the program are feeding a family.
I would rather see that the money is spent wisely, utilizing deals. For example, instead of buying the party/family size bag of chips, buy two slightly smaller size bags for the same amount. Or, buy the brand of lunchmeat, cereal, or whatever that is on sale that week, especially when the brand you are buying isn't superior in any way.

Does your state have WIC vouchers?
I guess part of my anger is that there is a welfare program that ensures good food is bought. These vouchers force people to buy certain things, and only these things. For example, one gallon of milk. They can get whatever brand, but it is either milk or nothing.
This program eliminates the ability to buy "treats' and whatnot, but more importantly, ensures nutritious products are bought. Personally, I would like to see this expanded and ebt/food stamps restricted. If people need help, they need help, and this would ensure they don't waste their money on crap food. After all, shouldn't we be trying to ensure they get nutrition, as opposed to just something to just fill their stomach?
Yes, and I think WIC is good. I don't care one bit that food stamps allows a wider range of purchases.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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8/28/2015 4:39:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 3:59:38 PM, TBR wrote:
EBT fraud is very low. Lower than 3% by most calculations. Even where there IS fraud, it is still a net benefit. The often cited "1 dollar in SNAP benefits generates $1.73 economic activity".
I don't like this stat, since it seems misguided. I'd assume that any dollar spent, not SNAP dollar, generates said activity, and I'd further assume many dollars would do similar numbers.

Military spending fraud is bigger, and a DRAG society. We don't see people jumping on every military contractor because fraud exists in the system.
What fraud is that? I think you mean waste, and lots of people get upset about it.

And, we don't know how often this occasional treat is bought, do we? And, occasional treat or not, I do not believe spending $150 on crab legs is acceptable.


To be clear, I am not referring to an occassional treat of a candy bar or bag of chips on an otherwise "acceptable" order. I am referring to spending $40 on soda and chips and snacks on a $100 order.

They do. So what? Point is, its just not your business. Don't worry about it. They may be having a special dinner, they may be blowing their budget. Its none of your concern.
If is public money, therefore it is my interest.
And, if they are blowing their budget, does that mean they are going to demand more benefits? Are politicians going to cave to them, instead of me or others on other issues, for easy votes? After all, we can't have them starving in the streets for blowing their budget on special dinners, can we?


I don't disagree that it can be hard to find a correct number. Generally it is low and acceptable.
I would be more inclined to believe you if it wasn't for my welfare medical insurance I had when I quit my job. I have been waiting 18 months for a determination as to whether I qualify for the insurance (I don't) when I went from part time to full time. So, this "fraud" of my using insurance I was not entitled to would not have gone noticed by anyone.
The fact is, I see/know people who cheat the system, and actively cheating the system is, in my book, defrauding said system (i.e. getting help you don't need). I see it with taxes all the time, for example, intentionally not getting married to secure larger tax credits. Is it legal? Sure. is it ethical? Maybe. But, the fact remains, it is money spent that should not have been spent, and I think we'd both agree that a private donor would be more inclined to not help given these tricks.




Why worry about what they have? I understand it sucks, but do you look at the person buying a lobster who pays cash and get upset? Call them out on it? Think they "worked harder" than you?

Why worry? Because it's "charity" being misused.
If you give someone some money directly for groceries, and they spend it on snacks, do you have a right to be upset? Concerned? Do you have the right to question them the next time they ask you for money?

Why is government any different, from the taxpayer's standpoint?
We care, or should care, about waste, so why not here?

The issue isn't that poor people have feelings and want to be treated like others, it is that the purpose of the benefit is being ignored with these purchases, and that bothers me as a matter of principle. You seem to focus on the former, while the latter is from where the outrage stems.
A special dinner is special, I get that, but, if the idea of food stamps is to ensure proper nutrition or stave starvation, then blowing the budget on a special dinner runs counter to that purpose. Period.
My work here is, finally, done.
TBR
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8/28/2015 4:52:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 4:39:14 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 3:59:38 PM, TBR wrote:
EBT fraud is very low. Lower than 3% by most calculations. Even where there IS fraud, it is still a net benefit. The often cited "1 dollar in SNAP benefits generates $1.73 economic activity".
I don't like this stat, since it seems misguided. I'd assume that any dollar spent, not SNAP dollar, generates said activity, and I'd further assume many dollars would do similar numbers.

No, that is not true.
http://frac.org...
Food stamps is one of the BEST economic stimulates.

Military spending fraud is bigger, and a DRAG society. We don't see people jumping on every military contractor because fraud exists in the system.
What fraud is that? I think you mean waste, and lots of people get upset about it.
We are past 60billion in fraud and waste in Iraq alone at this point. That is just OUT.


And, we don't know how often this occasional treat is bought, do we? And, occasional treat or not, I do not believe spending $150 on crab legs is acceptable.


To be clear, I am not referring to an occassional treat of a candy bar or bag of chips on an otherwise "acceptable" order. I am referring to spending $40 on soda and chips and snacks on a $100 order.

They do. So what? Point is, its just not your business. Don't worry about it. They may be having a special dinner, they may be blowing their budget. Its none of your concern.
If is public money, therefore it is my interest.
And, if they are blowing their budget, does that mean they are going to demand more benefits? Are politicians going to cave to them, instead of me or others on other issues, for easy votes? After all, we can't have them starving in the streets for blowing their budget on special dinners, can we?


I don't disagree that it can be hard to find a correct number. Generally it is low and acceptable.
I would be more inclined to believe you if it wasn't for my welfare medical insurance I had when I quit my job. I have been waiting 18 months for a determination as to whether I qualify for the insurance (I don't) when I went from part time to full time. So, this "fraud" of my using insurance I was not entitled to would not have gone noticed by anyone.
The fact is, I see/know people who cheat the system, and actively cheating the system is, in my book, defrauding said system (i.e. getting help you don't need). I see it with taxes all the time, for example, intentionally not getting married to secure larger tax credits. Is it legal? Sure. is it ethical? Maybe. But, the fact remains, it is money spent that should not have been spent, and I think we'd both agree that a private donor would be more inclined to not help given these tricks.




Why worry about what they have? I understand it sucks, but do you look at the person buying a lobster who pays cash and get upset? Call them out on it? Think they "worked harder" than you?

Why worry? Because it's "charity" being misused.
If you give someone some money directly for groceries, and they spend it on snacks, do you have a right to be upset? Concerned? Do you have the right to question them the next time they ask you for money?

No, not really. If it is "charity" you have given. That's all. I just don't see any reason to concern myself with what is happening. There are good reasons that they may be buying whatever they are buying. They may be wasting their money, but it is THEIR at this point, not mine.

Why is government any different, from the taxpayer's standpoint?
We care, or should care, about waste, so why not here?

Be concern about the fraud, but understand that very low, and there will always be some level of fraud in any system. 3% is acceptable to me, but I have no issue with working to reduce that. I am not going to get riled up by someone buying a birthday cake (not fraud) or a stake (not fraud).

The issue isn't that poor people have feelings and want to be treated like others, it is that the purpose of the benefit is being ignored with these purchases, and that bothers me as a matter of principle. You seem to focus on the former, while the latter is from where the outrage stems.
A special dinner is special, I get that, but, if the idea of food stamps is to ensure proper nutrition or stave starvation, then blowing the budget on a special dinner runs counter to that purpose. Period.
Again, being poor sucks. I can't find one good reason to begrudge a poor person the occasional "treat". Its just none of my business.
Khaos_Mage
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8/28/2015 5:13:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 8/28/2015 4:52:17 PM, TBR wrote:
At 8/28/2015 4:39:14 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 8/28/2015 3:59:38 PM, TBR wrote:
EBT fraud is very low. Lower than 3% by most calculations. Even where there IS fraud, it is still a net benefit. The often cited "1 dollar in SNAP benefits generates $1.73 economic activity".
I don't like this stat, since it seems misguided. I'd assume that any dollar spent, not SNAP dollar, generates said activity, and I'd further assume many dollars would do similar numbers.

No, that is not true.
http://frac.org...
Food stamps is one of the BEST economic stimulates.
Then, why not give everyone food stamps in any recession? There is a limit.
But, as I said, it is beyond my grasp, and frankly, immaterial to the outrage, since I am not saying food stamps should be banned.

Military spending fraud is bigger, and a DRAG society. We don't see people jumping on every military contractor because fraud exists in the system.
What fraud is that? I think you mean waste, and lots of people get upset about it.
We are past 60billion in fraud and waste in Iraq alone at this point. That is just OUT.

Not to be snide, but can you give me an example of military fraud. Not waste, but outright fraud.

Why worry? Because it's "charity" being misused.
If you give someone some money directly for groceries, and they spend it on snacks, do you have a right to be upset? Concerned? Do you have the right to question them the next time they ask you for money?

No, not really. If it is "charity" you have given. That's all. I just don't see any reason to concern myself with what is happening. There are good reasons that they may be buying whatever they are buying. They may be wasting their money, but it is THEIR at this point, not mine.

Be honest, if you gave someone money for a stated purpose, and they used that money for other reasons, would you give them money again?

Why is government any different, from the taxpayer's standpoint?
We care, or should care, about waste, so why not here?

Be concern about the fraud, but understand that very low, and there will always be some level of fraud in any system. 3% is acceptable to me, but I have no issue with working to reduce that. I am not going to get riled up by someone buying a birthday cake (not fraud) or a stake (not fraud).

Why not be concerned with recurring abuse and waste?


A special dinner is special, I get that, but, if the idea of food stamps is to ensure proper nutrition or stave starvation, then blowing the budget on a special dinner runs counter to that purpose. Period.
Again, being poor sucks. I can't find one good reason to begrudge a poor person the occasional "treat". Its just none of my business.

And this is the impasse.
You view it as acceptable to run counter to a stated purpose, while I do not. I further think you confuse "an occasional treat". A candy bar or pint of ice cream is a treat. A bag of chips is a treat. $30 on pop and chips is not a treat, nor is it likely occasional.

It is one thing for the purchase to be five loaves of bread, lunch meat, and bags of chips, and ziplock bags. That is the appearance of meal planning. It is another for the purchase to be bags of chips, pop, snacks, with some fruit and TV dinners. See the difference?
My work here is, finally, done.
Lee308
Posts: 53
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8/28/2015 9:00:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
" To be clear, I am not referring to an occassional treat of a candy bar or bag of chips on an otherwise "acceptable" order. I am referring to spending $40 on soda and chips and snacks on a $100 order.

They do. So what? Point is, its just not your business. Don't worry about it. They may be having a special dinner, they may be blowing their budget. Its none of your concern"
To the poster that wrote this."

THE HELL IT AIN'T MY BUSINESS!!!!!!!!
I'm the one FORCED AT GUN POINT TO PAY FOR IT, and it is more common than not.
I see it EVERY TIME I buy groceries. / SPIT !