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I may owe BLM an apology....

Khaos_Mage
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9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It is no surprise that I am not a fan of #blacklivesmatter, nor am I a fan of their racism, misinformation, or tactics. That being said, I may have to dial back my opposition to their protests.

While commenting at work about the local chapter's recent protest at the state fair, complaining about disparity of vendors without any actual stats that I could find, I discovered that most of my co-workers (at a restaurant) have never heard of BLM. This surprised me given the things they've done around the area, even if not directly affecting the suburb. However, it got me to thinking.....

If people were so self-absorbed in their own affairs that they aren't even aware of major disruptions to "major" events (Christmas shopping, shutting down interstates, closing exits/entrances to the state fair), then, these very same people are most likely unaware of the plight of which BLM is trying to address. Assuming this, then it makes absolute sense to disrupt the general public to create awareness of said issues.

However, there are issues with this realization:
1. People being self-absorbed are not being supremacists, so calling people that is not helpful, nor accurate.
2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose. Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.
3. It appears that many people believe that protests should "make people uncomfortable". This is not true. A protest should convey a message - it is not a power trip. The message and facts should challenge people's thoughts, solicit change, and that is what is uncomfortable. Calling people names and ruining their commute/fun is not a message, even if it does make them uncomfortable.

You want exposure, doing high publicity things will get it for you, but you need to bring your "A" game and utilize the publicity and be very aware of what you say and how you present yourself.
My work here is, finally, done.
popculturepooka
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9/1/2015 5:18:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
It is no surprise that I am not a fan of #blacklivesmatter, nor am I a fan of their racism, misinformation, or tactics. That being said, I may have to dial back my opposition to their protests.

While commenting at work about the local chapter's recent protest at the state fair, complaining about disparity of vendors without any actual stats that I could find, I discovered that most of my co-workers (at a restaurant) have never heard of BLM. This surprised me given the things they've done around the area, even if not directly affecting the suburb. However, it got me to thinking.....

If people were so self-absorbed in their own affairs that they aren't even aware of major disruptions to "major" events (Christmas shopping, shutting down interstates, closing exits/entrances to the state fair), then, these very same people are most likely unaware of the plight of which BLM is trying to address. Assuming this, then it makes absolute sense to disrupt the general public to create awareness of said issues.

However, there are issues with this realization:
1. People being self-absorbed are not being supremacists, so calling people that is not helpful, nor accurate.

I can count on one had the amount of people I've heard called "supremacists" by BLM. And they usually are supremacists. Like actual supremacists. And saying that people (for example) are embedded into a social structure that is supremacist (that they might benefit from whether they like it or not) isn't the same as saying that they, themselves, are supremacist.

2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose. Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.

It usually does have a purpose. And, honestly, I don't know any real allies that would be turned off by something so trivial (in comparison to the issue(s) BLM is concerned about). What I have heard is a bunch of faux-allies - even by those the left (who exalt how enlightened they are wrt to racial issues) in regards to the Sanders' disruption - claim that they *were* for BLM but now they aren't because their feelings got hurt. If your support for having an ethnic group treated equally (and that's what BLM is about) can be turned off as quick as that, chances are you weren't a great ally to have in the first place.

3. It appears that many people believe that protests should "make people uncomfortable". This is not true. A protest should convey a message - it is not a power trip. The message and facts should challenge people's thoughts, solicit change, and that is what is uncomfortable. Calling people names and ruining their commute/fun is not a message, even if it does make them uncomfortable.


Actually it is true. It's a simple fact that shining light on inequalities that many don't even think exist - or that they think they are actively fighting against - is inherently uncomfortable because people like to think of themselves as fair and decent. That simple fact makes people uncomfortable. The simple saying truism that "Black Lives Matter" makes people uncomfortable and angry and that's when they start deflecting and saying "no, no, but...all lives matter!" yadda, yadda, yadda.

And there is a message there. That your discomfort with the way we present the message doesn't trump the very real dangers that black lives often face. It's the epitomy of tone policing to say that people who are legitimately angry about injustice have to express their anger in a way that doesn't make others (mainly who don't have to deal with that injustice) uncomfortable.

I'm not a fan of respectability politics at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org...

You want exposure, doing high publicity things will get it for you, but you need to bring your "A" game and utilize the publicity and be very aware of what you say and how you present yourself.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
lamerde
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9/1/2015 7:07:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
It is no surprise that I am not a fan of #blacklivesmatter, nor am I a fan of their racism, misinformation, or tactics. That being said, I may have to dial back my opposition to their protests.

What racism/misinformation?

At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose.

The purpose is in the title - to get people to understand that Black lives matter. As you're noting, some people are not even aware of the movement. Many don't see the issues they highlight as problems. Institutional and societal change requires individuals on board. Why can't the current goal be awareness?

Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.

Unfortunately, the movement cannot be conceptualized as a monolith. There is the formal #blacklivesmatter movement with official chapters, and there is the idea behind the hashtag that anyone can use. Anyone can say or do anything and use the hashtag and there are people who are very vocal activists who use the platform and are not officially affiliated with the movement (such as the dude Bernie Sanders camp was trying to meet with or met with). Is your problem with the official movement and it's organizers, or with the idea behind the hashtag?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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9/1/2015 7:09:01 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Sorry, I meant to say:

There is the formal Black Lives Matter organization with official chapters

and then there is the hashtage #blacklivesmatter.

I wish DDO had an edit function.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
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9/1/2015 7:57:13 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not really surprising a black panther type group would grow in the wake of continued white interventions into the black community.
Df0512
Posts: 966
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9/2/2015 3:49:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
It is no surprise that I am not a fan of #blacklivesmatter, nor am I a fan of their racism, misinformation, or tactics. That being said, I may have to dial back my opposition to their protests.

While commenting at work about the local chapter's recent protest at the state fair, complaining about disparity of vendors without any actual stats that I could find, I discovered that most of my co-workers (at a restaurant) have never heard of BLM. This surprised me given the things they've done around the area, even if not directly affecting the suburb. However, it got me to thinking.....

If people were so self-absorbed in their own affairs that they aren't even aware of major disruptions to "major" events (Christmas shopping, shutting down interstates, closing exits/entrances to the state fair), then, these very same people are most likely unaware of the plight of which BLM is trying to address. Assuming this, then it makes absolute sense to disrupt the general public to create awareness of said issues.

However, there are issues with this realization:
1. People being self-absorbed are not being supremacists, so calling people that is not helpful, nor accurate.
2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose. Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.
3. It appears that many people believe that protests should "make people uncomfortable". This is not true. A protest should convey a message - it is not a power trip. The message and facts should challenge people's thoughts, solicit change, and that is what is uncomfortable. Calling people names and ruining their commute/fun is not a message, even if it does make them uncomfortable.

You want exposure, doing high publicity things will get it for you, but you need to bring your "A" game and utilize the publicity and be very aware of what you say and how you present yourself.

Wow. Gotta say I didn't see this coming. I think you got the right idea. And i'd agree that maybe they are going about this protest a little too aggressively. But then I think BLM represent the frustration a lot of black people feel. We know that there is a problem in this country with race and just as you have discovered, some people aren't even aware. So of course, why would they believe us when we say there is. This, among other things, has caused frustration to built up over the years and BLM gives some black people the ability to voice that frustration. Unfortunately aggression seems to be whats driving them to grow.
lamerde
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9/3/2015 3:07:51 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 5:18:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:

Oh that's right, I forgot. Khaos wasn't interested in having a conversation about Black people/racism with actual Black people...
Why I ignore YYW:
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http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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9/3/2015 3:08:44 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I'm convinced he's a race-baiting troll.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
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9/3/2015 3:34:11 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 3:08:44 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'm convinced he's a race-baiting troll.

Since you clearly know me so well, then you know I work 80 hours a week.
I'll respond to actual deep conversation when I have time to type my thoughts out well enough, and not when I am looking for a distraction to unwind from work.

However, speaking of race-baiting, it seems that the vast majority of your forum posts relate to race, if not social justice. Is this calling the kettle black? Is referring to me as a troll hypocritical? Especially for someone who hides behind anonymity, like yourself, who we clearly have an issue from the past.

Regardless, I am not a troll. I have no need to be, and anyone who actually knows me on this website knows that I speak my mind, and am genuine in doing so. So, please, take your condescension and dismissive attitude elsewhere, or just be patient. It's only been a day or so, after all. Besides, I don't particularly like you, so I'm not too inclined to respond to your response to my OP, but I will, as you asked relevant questions... when I have time.

In the meantime, hold your tongue.

(oh, and I think you forget that I do talk to actual black people about race. Remember, that was your advice? And, what did they tell me? Oh, yeah....that they are not affected by racism. Remember? Or do you not believe that some black folks don't have the same attitudes you have? Probably this, from what I can tell of your arrogant demeanor)
My work here is, finally, done.
lamerde
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9/3/2015 11:47:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 3:34:11 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 3:08:44 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'm convinced he's a race-baiting troll.

Since you clearly know me so well, then you know I work 80 hours a week.
I'll respond to actual deep conversation when I have time to type my thoughts out well enough, and not when I am looking for a distraction to unwind from work.

No, I don't know you well enough. I'm just going off the fact that this isn't the first time I've directly responded to you about something and it has gone un-addressed. I don't log on to DDO that often, but I can see that you do and you do post quite a bit. It's been over a week since the last time I said something to you that you ignored. Forgive me for thinking this thread was going the same way, seeing you online and active but not responding here (especially when you got several serious responses from known Black members).

However, speaking of race-baiting, it seems that the vast majority of your forum posts relate to race, if not social justice. Is this calling the kettle black? Is referring to me as a troll hypocritical? Especially for someone who hides behind anonymity, like yourself, who we clearly have an issue from the past.

Talking about racism/social justice =/= "race baiting". I've actually been advised against telling you who I am and, to be honest, I prefer it that way because I like to see how people truly interact with others without any political BS. How would knowing who I am change the way you interact with me?

Regardless, I am not a troll. I have no need to be, and anyone who actually knows me on this website knows that I speak my mind, and am genuine in doing so. So, please, take your condescension and dismissive attitude elsewhere, or just be patient. It's only been a day or so, after all. Besides, I don't particularly like you, so I'm not too inclined to respond to your response to my OP, but I will, as you asked relevant questions... when I have time.

In the meantime, hold your tongue.

(oh, and I think you forget that I do talk to actual black people about race. Remember, that was your advice? And, what did they tell me? Oh, yeah....that they are not affected by racism. Remember? Or do you not believe that some black folks don't have the same attitudes you have? Probably this, from what I can tell of your arrogant demeanor)

I'm actually not sure what you're talking about here... I've never claimed to speak for all Black people and I never would.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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9/3/2015 11:52:08 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't even know how I could be accused of race-baiting when, any given day, there are several threads on the first page in this forum (or the politics forum) about race and not one of them has ever been started by me. (You, on the other hand...?)

Knowing the demographics of this site, yes, I'm going to gravitate toward where the most ignorant/incorrect statements are made. Otherwise, I wouldn't bother posting.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
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9/4/2015 9:01:41 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 5:18:48 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
I don't know how well this is a response to you, but it's all I got, and I figured I shouldn't wait over the holiday weekend.
However, there are issues with this realization:
1. People being self-absorbed are not being supremacists, so calling people that is not helpful, nor accurate.

I can count on one had the amount of people I've heard called "supremacists" by BLM. And they usually are supremacists. Like actual supremacists.
Because, you know every news story of every wing of the movement....
Were the people in Seattle supremacists?

And saying that people (for example) are embedded into a social structure that is supremacist (that they might benefit from whether they like it or not) isn't the same as saying that they, themselves, are supremacist.
Why is there a difference in this distinction and not one of, say a policy, being labeled racist due to a disparate impact?

2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose. Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.

It usually does have a purpose. And, honestly, I don't know any real allies that would be turned off by something so trivial (in comparison to the issue(s) BLM is concerned about). What I have heard is a bunch of faux-allies - even by those the left (who exalt how enlightened they are wrt to racial issues) in regards to the Sanders' disruption - claim that they *were* for BLM but now they aren't because their feelings got hurt. If your support for having an ethnic group treated equally (and that's what BLM is about) can be turned off as quick as that, chances are you weren't a great ally to have in the first place.

While this is a valid point and it brings into questions about if they really are allies, you cannot suggest that people do not often distance themselves from groups that are too radical, even if they agree. One may be for animal rights, but it is quite another to burn down animal testing facilities. Further, you assume that people must agree with the methods to agree with the message, which doesn't flow logically.



3. It appears that many people believe that protests should "make people uncomfortable". This is not true. A protest should convey a message - it is not a power trip. The message and facts should challenge people's thoughts, solicit change, and that is what is uncomfortable. Calling people names and ruining their commute/fun is not a message, even if it does make them uncomfortable.


Actually it is true. It's a simple fact that shining light on inequalities that many don't even think exist - or that they think they are actively fighting against - is inherently uncomfortable because people like to think of themselves as fair and decent. That simple fact makes people uncomfortable.

The simple saying truism that "Black Lives Matter" makes people uncomfortable and angry and that's when they start deflecting and saying "no, no, but...all lives matter!" yadda, yadda, yadda.
Deflection is an issue, but who's fault is that? Everyone's, including BLM, for picking the name. You know what else is deflection that BLM does? Saying that whites have no place to tell BLM how to act, or citing white privilege to shut down the conversation. No one benefits from the deflection. I agree.


And there is a message there. That your discomfort with the way we present the message doesn't trump the very real dangers that black lives often face. It's the epitomy of tone policing to say that people who are legitimately angry about injustice have to express their anger in a way that doesn't make others (mainly who don't have to deal with that injustice) uncomfortable.
Why not have BLM just beat the crap out of whites so we know what it's like? That's all good, right?
Clearly the way you present yourself is important, and don't act like it isn't.

You can be angry, but anger is an emotion and is an emotional response. Planning a disruption is 100% intentional. An organic march/disruption/riot out of grief/anger, such as in Ferguson, is, to a point, acceptable. However, planning such an event two weeks in advance, and rejecting arrangements that should appeal to all (for example, being given a booth at the state fair - a 12 day presence as opposed to a three hour show), is not organic, but intentional. Can you really site anger as a justification? Is the anger so unbridled at this point that is must escape, but only in a few hour window a few weeks from now?

I'm not a fan of respectability politics at all.

https://en.wikipedia.org...
To an extent I agree with you, but when the issue isn't so much political, but societal, it very much matters.
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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9/4/2015 9:04:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/2/2015 3:49:34 AM, Df0512 wrote:

Wow. Gotta say I didn't see this coming. I think you got the right idea. And i'd agree that maybe they are going about this protest a little too aggressively. But then I think BLM represent the frustration a lot of black people feel. We know that there is a problem in this country with race and just as you have discovered, some people aren't even aware. So of course, why would they believe us when we say there is. This, among other things, has caused frustration to built up over the years and BLM gives some black people the ability to voice that frustration. Unfortunately aggression seems to be whats driving them to grow.

The problem with these people, though, is that they don't care. They will never care. Not just about you, or race, or whatever. It's just that it doesn't effect them, and they are too busy to care. Whether their "too busy" is worthwhile is up for debate, but the fact remains, they are likely not going to care, and what's worse, if the protests do affect them negatively, they will likely lash out, and probably not care what you are bothering them for.
My work here is, finally, done.
Sarra
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9/4/2015 9:22:12 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I am sorry that either you have missed their message or that your local chapter is not representative of their movement. Their general message is that they feel under represented, repressed, and discriminated against on a daily basis by government and the cops (anyone from BLM - please correct me if this misrepresents your group).

Khaos, please do not make assumptions about entire ethnicities based on a handful of people you dislike.
Khaos_Mage
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9/4/2015 9:27:05 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/3/2015 11:47:34 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 9/3/2015 3:34:11 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/3/2015 3:08:44 AM, lamerde wrote:
I'm convinced he's a race-baiting troll.

Since you clearly know me so well, then you know I work 80 hours a week.
I'll respond to actual deep conversation when I have time to type my thoughts out well enough, and not when I am looking for a distraction to unwind from work.

No, I don't know you well enough. I'm just going off the fact that this isn't the first time I've directly responded to you about something and it has gone un-addressed. I don't log on to DDO that often, but I can see that you do and you do post quite a bit. It's been over a week since the last time I said something to you that you ignored. Forgive me for thinking this thread was going the same way, seeing you online and active but not responding here (especially when you got several serious responses from known Black members).

Because everything you say is worth my responding to you?
If you believe this, then your logic follows. But, the premise would be false.

However, speaking of race-baiting, it seems that the vast majority of your forum posts relate to race, if not social justice. Is this calling the kettle black? Is referring to me as a troll hypocritical? Especially for someone who hides behind anonymity, like yourself, who we clearly have an issue from the past.

Talking about racism/social justice =/= "race baiting".
Unless you are me, or white, or what, exactly?
Yes, I talk about race. So do you. Yet, I am race baiting and a troll because.....I start threads? Okay then.

I've actually been advised against telling you who I am and, to be honest, I prefer it that way because I like to see how people truly interact with others without any political BS. How would knowing who I am change the way you interact with me?

See if you can spot the hypocrisy in this segment. Perhaps it will shed some light on why I might not respond to you.
It's not going to change how I interact with you, unless I had a reason to treat you differently (e.g. not respond to you). The issue I have is that you bring up our past to attack me, and even now you follow someone else's advice about me (which in itself is an attack on my name, but not by you), but I don't know you.
You can't claim the high ground while hiding in the shadows.

Regardless, I am not a troll. I have no need to be, and anyone who actually knows me on this website knows that I speak my mind, and am genuine in doing so. So, please, take your condescension and dismissive attitude elsewhere, or just be patient. It's only been a day or so, after all. Besides, I don't particularly like you, so I'm not too inclined to respond to your response to my OP, but I will, as you asked relevant questions... when I have time.

In the meantime, hold your tongue.

(oh, and I think you forget that I do talk to actual black people about race. Remember, that was your advice? And, what did they tell me? Oh, yeah....that they are not affected by racism. Remember? Or do you not believe that some black folks don't have the same attitudes you have? Probably this, from what I can tell of your arrogant demeanor)

I'm actually not sure what you're talking about here... I've never claimed to speak for all Black people and I never would.

Clearly you speak for all black people, given your comment that I don't want to speak to actual black people, because you assume I should engage with you, pooka, and a few others, who are little more than names on a screen to me, and I have to take at face value your intent, biography, and motivations.
My work here is, finally, done.
lamerde
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9/5/2015 2:31:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:27:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Because everything you say is worth my responding to you?
If you believe this, then your logic follows. But, the premise would be false.

Not following you here at all. What I'm saying is that there has been at least one instance where I responded directly to you in a thread you created (and I believe I made valid points), which you ignored. How should it follow that everything I say is worth responding to?

If you don't care to respond to me, that's fine. Why are you mad, then, when I call you out for not responding?

Unless you are me, or white, or what, exactly?
Yes, I talk about race. So do you. Yet, I am race baiting and a troll because.....I start threads? Okay then.

You are race-baiting and a troll because, in my experience talking to you, you are not actually interested in having a discussion. You post misleading threads, where you ask questions that you have already determined the answers to. It has been years and I have never once seen you change your mind on something (yet you continue to ask questions and dismiss any counterarguments that don't line up with your world view). You continue to post ignorant, trollish threads (e.g., "is it racist if I don't like my Mexican neighbours for acting Mexican?") I used to think you were at least sincere in your wrong-ness. I no longer do.

See if you can spot the hypocrisy in this segment. Perhaps it will shed some light on why I might not respond to you.

That's fine. You don't have to respond to me. But I do think it's suspect that you ask all these questions about Black people and only want answers from White, teenaged boys who agree with you.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in fighting with you or attacking you. For the record, I think you're a generally likeable person. My interactions with you as lamerde has been eye-opening for both of us, I'm sure.

I apologize if you feel I came out of the gate attacking you. But I'm not sure your hurt feelings are more important than calling out bullsh*t posts/threads/attitudes/ideologies. I'm willing to admit I may have been more honest/harsh than usual.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 3:03:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 2:31:54 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 9/4/2015 9:27:05 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Unless you are me, or white, or what, exactly?
Yes, I talk about race. So do you. Yet, I am race baiting and a troll because.....I start threads? Okay then.

You are race-baiting and a troll because, in my experience talking to you, you are not actually interested in having a discussion. You post misleading threads, where you ask questions that you have already determined the answers to. It has been years and I have never once seen you change your mind on something (yet you continue to ask questions and dismiss any counterarguments that don't line up with your world view). You continue to post ignorant, trollish threads (e.g., "is it racist if I don't like my Mexican neighbours for acting Mexican?") I used to think you were at least sincere in your wrong-ness. I no longer do.

So, I've never changed my mind, yet in this very thread, in the very OP, I said that BLM may actually be justified in their choice of venues for protests.
Such confirmation bias you have, sir.

Ah yes, the Mexican neighbor thread. Yet another poorly worded OP of mine, or one where people misunderstood. But, another example of me exploring racism, since I can't seem to find a concrete universal definition. But, you knew that, didn't you?

See, maybe, if you put on your empathy hat, you can put yourself in the shoes of a white person, who is called racist for many different reasons, and has groups and protesters saying doing "X" is racist, and blah blah blah, and poor little ol' me is left wondering "what is racism, exactly"? To me, BLM cries racism with evidence of disparity, which I don't believe is racism. But, there are those on DDO who believe that racism is actually systemic racism, and intent and actions don't matter. But, when they do matter, for example Dylan Roof, there seems to be no distinction in the cries. Forgive me for not being an expert on discrimination.

See if you can spot the hypocrisy in this segment. Perhaps it will shed some light on why I might not respond to you.

That's fine. You don't have to respond to me. But I do think it's suspect that you ask all these questions about Black people and only want answers from White, teenaged boys who agree with you.

I wasn't aware I asked any questions in this thread, and since this thread is about BLM, I was not aware only blacks were allowed in. I guess I learned something.

Anyway, I'm not really interested in fighting with you or attacking you. For the record, I think you're a generally likeable person. My interactions with you as lamerde has been eye-opening for both of us, I'm sure.
It's not really eye-opening at all for me, nor do I know why you learned anything from me. Unless you think I was too friendly to you and I didn't speak my mind, which is hard to believe, since I clearly have spoken my mind for years, I don't know what you learned.

I apologize if you feel I came out of the gate attacking you. But I'm not sure your hurt feelings are more important than calling out bullsh*t posts/threads/attitudes/ideologies. I'm willing to admit I may have been more honest/harsh than usual.
I don't have hurt feelings. I get angry when people insult me from the shadows. I'm a big boy, I don't get hurt so easily.

What is this political BS you fear I will have if I knew your former self? Why would you not perceive others' opinions of me/advise about me/us?
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 3:20:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/4/2015 9:22:12 PM, Sarra wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I am sorry that either you have missed their message or that your local chapter is not representative of their movement. Their general message is that they feel under represented, repressed, and discriminated against on a daily basis by government and the cops (anyone from BLM - please correct me if this misrepresents your group).

I do believe their issues are more universal, and it doesn't help that the police aspect is what seems to get the press. For example, BLM's homepage talks about how blacks need to stop discriminating against gay blacks, because, guess what, they matter, too.

My biggest issue with BLM is they seem to be all gung-ho about doing it themselves, like this is "their" movement, which is fine, but that does alienate whites, and when most of the issues, IMO, are societal and where no government edict can fix it, or the issues are multi-faceted, alienation is going to make cooperation difficult.


Khaos, please do not make assumptions about entire ethnicities based on a handful of people you dislike.

I don't.
I may be judging the movement based on a few people, but hardly an entire race.
I don't know why you would think that.
My work here is, finally, done.
bladerunner060
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9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I've been here a long time. Not as long as some, mind, but a long time nonetheless, and a benefit I have over most of those is that I'm OLD, so I've got years of real life experience.

Khaos has on several occasions changed his mind.

He has a tendency to post rhetorical questions, that is, to post "questions" that are more "statements". But that's not uncommon, and not dishonest.

As much as he's wrong (read: Every time he disagree with me, OBVIOUSLY), he is honest, and will change his mind if convinced, even if in one of those "Questions as statements" threads. That's more than can be said about many.

Khaos and I disagree on many things, but I respect him as a person for that very honesty.

Blech. I've been entirely too nice to you Khaos. We need to argue about something now.
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Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 4:21:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
I've been here a long time. Not as long as some, mind, but a long time nonetheless, and a benefit I have over most of those is that I'm OLD, so I've got years of real life experience.

Khaos has on several occasions changed his mind.

He has a tendency to post rhetorical questions, that is, to post "questions" that are more "statements". But that's not uncommon, and not dishonest.

As much as he's wrong (read: Every time he disagree with me, OBVIOUSLY), he is honest, and will change his mind if convinced, even if in one of those "Questions as statements" threads. That's more than can be said about many.

Khaos and I disagree on many things, but I respect him as a person for that very honesty.

Blech. I've been entirely too nice to you Khaos. We need to argue about something now.

You're always too nice to me.
Stop it. I demand satisfaction!!!

There was something you said long ago I was going to comment about, but I don't remember....
My work here is, finally, done.
Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 4:28:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Oh, I remember.
Churches provide as much of a benefit to society as any other non-profit and/or charity you don't approve of. So, have fun subsidizing union dues and hospitals and the GOP.
My work here is, finally, done.
bladerunner060
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9/5/2015 4:30:40 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 4:28:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Oh, I remember.
Churches provide as much of a benefit to society as any other non-profit and/or charity you don't approve of. So, have fun subsidizing union dues and hospitals and the GOP.

Wait, what?
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Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 4:32:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 4:30:40 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:28:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Oh, I remember.
Churches provide as much of a benefit to society as any other non-profit and/or charity you don't approve of. So, have fun subsidizing union dues and hospitals and the GOP.

Wait, what?

You wanted to argue, and that was our last argument, which I never responded. It was probably six months ago or so. LOL
My work here is, finally, done.
bladerunner060
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9/5/2015 4:39:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 4:32:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:30:40 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:28:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Oh, I remember.
Churches provide as much of a benefit to society as any other non-profit and/or charity you don't approve of. So, have fun subsidizing union dues and hospitals and the GOP.

Wait, what?

You wanted to argue, and that was our last argument, which I never responded. It was probably six months ago or so. LOL

I think that was our first debate, too....which ended in a tie with no votes.
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Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 4:42:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 4:39:22 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:32:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:30:40 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
At 9/5/2015 4:28:32 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/5/2015 3:23:06 AM, bladerunner060 wrote:
Oh, I remember.
Churches provide as much of a benefit to society as any other non-profit and/or charity you don't approve of. So, have fun subsidizing union dues and hospitals and the GOP.

Wait, what?

You wanted to argue, and that was our last argument, which I never responded. It was probably six months ago or so. LOL

I think that was our first debate, too....which ended in a tie with no votes.

So it was.
Back when I used to debate. That was a long time ago....before I realized debates are a waste of time, as they don't seek out truth, only a victor.

Now, Mr. Ex-president, please stop derailing my thread. ;)
My work here is, finally, done.
Sarra
Posts: 288
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9/5/2015 4:58:41 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 3:20:36 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 9/4/2015 9:22:12 PM, Sarra wrote:
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
I am sorry that either you have missed their message or that your local chapter is not representative of their movement. Their general message is that they feel under represented, repressed, and discriminated against on a daily basis by government and the cops (anyone from BLM - please correct me if this misrepresents your group).

I do believe their issues are more universal, and it doesn't help that the police aspect is what seems to get the press. For example, BLM's homepage talks about how blacks need to stop discriminating against gay blacks, because, guess what, they matter, too.

My biggest issue with BLM is they seem to be all gung-ho about doing it themselves, like this is "their" movement, which is fine, but that does alienate whites, and when most of the issues, IMO, are societal and where no government edict can fix it, or the issues are multi-faceted, alienation is going to make cooperation difficult.


Khaos, please do not make assumptions about entire ethnicities based on a handful of people you dislike.

I don't.
I may be judging the movement based on a few people, but hardly an entire race.
I don't know why you would think that.

I'm sorry for using the wrong word (ethnicities). I do not know a word that means a societal group of people that represent a specific population group that almost all believe in the same basic core ideals. Do you? (serious question, I would really like to know if there is a word or phrase that means something similar to that)

Do you know the site address for their homepage? While it is true that government edicts alone will not address all the issues, it would be a great start. The low hanging fruit are things like minimum sentencing laws which in turn leaves many children without fathers (good role models) - broken families are a serious issue; similar to how women get paid roughly 70 cents for every dollar a man makes, Americans who happen to be black earn roughly 75 cents for every dollar compared to the amount Americans who happen to be white earn - same job (various causalities of this); and in 2014, 11% of elected officials and 5% of judges were Americans that happened to not be white (remember that 39% of Americans happen to not be white) - this is what we call under representation.

I believe these Americans are not trying to alienate anyone. I believe they are concerned about the issues facing them and want to and are actively pursuing all avenues that will lead to positive change.
Sarra
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9/5/2015 9:56:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
There is a 0.00004% chance that someone who votes will commit voter fraud, yet Republican"s voter ID law will disenfranchise 11% of the American public from being able to vote, most of which are Americans that happen to not be white.
slo1
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9/5/2015 1:30:26 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/1/2015 4:19:58 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
It is no surprise that I am not a fan of #blacklivesmatter, nor am I a fan of their racism, misinformation, or tactics. That being said, I may have to dial back my opposition to their protests.

While commenting at work about the local chapter's recent protest at the state fair, complaining about disparity of vendors without any actual stats that I could find, I discovered that most of my co-workers (at a restaurant) have never heard of BLM. This surprised me given the things they've done around the area, even if not directly affecting the suburb. However, it got me to thinking.....

If people were so self-absorbed in their own affairs that they aren't even aware of major disruptions to "major" events (Christmas shopping, shutting down interstates, closing exits/entrances to the state fair), then, these very same people are most likely unaware of the plight of which BLM is trying to address. Assuming this, then it makes absolute sense to disrupt the general public to create awareness of said issues.

However, there are issues with this realization:
1. People being self-absorbed are not being supremacists, so calling people that is not helpful, nor accurate.
2. Creating awareness is one thing; however, this awareness needs to be targeted and have a purpose. Celebrating disruption (facebook posts bragging that they closed two entrances) does not convey a purpose other than being disruptive, and one must be careful that one does not alienate potential allies in a cause in an effort to create awareness. After all, your issues cannot be solved by a legislator's pen.
3. It appears that many people believe that protests should "make people uncomfortable". This is not true. A protest should convey a message - it is not a power trip. The message and facts should challenge people's thoughts, solicit change, and that is what is uncomfortable. Calling people names and ruining their commute/fun is not a message, even if it does make them uncomfortable.

You want exposure, doing high publicity things will get it for you, but you need to bring your "A" game and utilize the publicity and be very aware of what you say and how you present yourself.

I'm with you, but I also feel that BLM is only focused on awareness rather than real tactical events which start solving the issue. I read an article yesterday where a local clergy got 100 black businessmen to greet children in Hartford on their first day of school.

While I disagree with only using businessmen who conform to society image of business people, I thought it was a great event to get the majority exposure to the minority. Those types of things in the long run will do more for race relations than interrupting a barry sanders event.

For all I know though the event I mention could have been a BLM event. Glad to see you come around Khaos. There is a huge problem with even admitting there is a problem with the way society overall treats african americans and dark skinned people in this country.
Khaos_Mage
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9/5/2015 1:43:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 9:56:15 AM, Sarra wrote:
There is a 0.00004% chance that someone who votes will commit voter fraud, yet Republican"s voter ID law will disenfranchise 11% of the American public from being able to vote, most of which are Americans that happen to not be white.

Can you source this, and I'll respond later? (I have a few responses to do still, yikes)

I disagree with this stat, and this leads into the misleading facts that people like to use.
My work here is, finally, done.
slo1
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9/5/2015 1:49:52 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/5/2015 9:56:15 AM, Sarra wrote:
There is a 0.00004% chance that someone who votes will commit voter fraud, yet Republican"s voter ID law will disenfranchise 11% of the American public from being able to vote, most of which are Americans that happen to not be white.

One of the best articles that explains it.
http://www.motherjones.com...

All, if don't have time to read the article this one sentence sums it up quite well.

Don't have a birth certificate because you're black and were born in the segregated south? You have to go to court.

I see the problem, but like this article points out that before this guy became educated on the difficulty of getting everyone to a point of having an ID, he and many who support voter ID truly just think it is common sense to prove you have a right to vote and have not already voted.

The entire tone of racial discussion is extremely difficult. It is important to use language the helps people get educated or want to get educated versus raise walls. The way you worded it, Sarrah, was perfect.

When I hear voter id is racist, it makes me cringe a bit because I do believe most have decent intent but don't understand the implications.