Total Posts:153|Showing Posts:1-30|Last Page
Jump to topic:

Micro-aggression Theory is Intellectual Trash

YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:00:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Brad Campbell at Cal. State with a dude named Jason Manning who is at WVU published a pretty meaningful article in Comparative Sociology. Their thesis explains the practice of documenting micro-aggressions in terms of a general theory of social control. Their basic contentions are these:

(1) The social conditions which promote complaints of oppression and victimization result in high degrees of sensitivity by discrete minorities of various kinds, which results in members of those minorities decrying their victimhood to third parties.

(2) This phenomenon creates a culture of victimhood whereby minorities and third parties mutually recognize the minorities at once as victims, and as victims who deserve and are entitled to the assistance of third parties to remediate their perceived victimization.

To put it bluntly, the concept of a micro-aggression, as it has been defined, is as intellectually specious as it is devoid of merit or value. As I have said before, the fact that this is something that is being studied is a testament to the largess and waste of university resources on academic pursuits that are futile at best, and socioculturally deleterious at worst.

The said article explains:

Microaggressions, as defined by Derald Wing Sue, a counseling psychologist and diversity training specialist, are "the brief and commonplace daily verbal, behavioral, and environmental indignities, whether intentional or unintentional, that communicate hostile, derogatory, or negative racial, gender, and sexual orientation, and religious slights and insults to the target person or group" (Sue 2010:5). The term dates to the 1970s, but it has become more popular recently, mainly due to the efforts of academics and activists wishing to call attention to what they see as the "subtle ways that racial, ethnic, gender and other stereotypes can play out painfully in an increasingly diverse culture" (Vega 2014). Offhand remarks and questions might be microaggressions, such as, in an example Sue gives, when people ask him where he was born and then are unsatisfied when he tells them Portland.

Discussion of microaggressions has become something of a hobby among those who are not white males:

Increasingly, perceived slights such as these are documented on websites that encourage users to submit posts describing their own grievances, many involving purportedly offensive things said by the posters" co-workers, friends, or family members.

For example:

One anonymous Hispanic student calls attention to a white teammate"s microaggressions, which included using the Spanish word "futbol." "Keep my heritage language out of your mouth," writes the poster, who vows never to play soccer with whites again ("Futbol, and White People" 2013).

The authors explain that discussion and documentation of misroaggressions "fits into a larger class of conflict tactics in which the [ostensibly] aggrieved seek to attract and mobilize the support of third parties." Most of the so-called grievances are petty, frivolous nonsense; and the fact that these so-called grievances are often documented in ways that are not verifiable permits their exaggeration, whereby a naive third party may be lured into the delusion that they are actually a problem.

In Genealogy of Morals ("GM"), Nietzshe basically says the same thing about the religious. Nietzsche's argument is that the weak who would otherwise be overborne by the strong invented the soul to exert power over the strong to force them to conform their behavior to the norms of the weak, thereby mitigating the kind of plight that they would otherwise experience, said perhaps most eloquently by Thucydides as "The strong do what they can; the weak accept what they must." The soul was a way to re-balance the power dynamic between those who could be physically dominated, and those who did the dominating. GM is more complicated than that, but you get the basic idea.

Of course, Nietzsche's argument failed for many reasons that are beyond the scope of this OP, but the *method* behind the documentation of micro-aggressions is similar, although the outcomes are vastly different. The methodological overlap exists to the extent that minorities who *perceive* themselves as occupying a lower sociocultural position than, say, the white male heterosexual majority, or some minorities who perceive that they hold a less privileged status than other minorities, articulate their grievances in various ways, and call them "microaggressions" ("MAs").

This is basically an example of how this interplay occurs:

White guy (who may be gay or may not be gay), black girl who is straight, and Northern Indian lesbian walk into a bar. They are friends, and they meet up with a group of other people, who are unfamiliar to the black girl and Northern Indian lesbian. Heterosexual white guy from the other group strikes up a conversation with Northern Indian lesbian, who seems friendly enough. Northern Indian Lesbian went to Columbia University, and took a course on cultural awareness where she was taught that any time any person makes any assumption about any other person, they are a racist/sexist/bigot to the extent that they do so. White guy from other group is trying to be friendly, so he suggests that perhaps the group go for curry some time.

Northern Indian lesbian assumes that white guy from other group is suggesting that the group go for curry some time because he wants to get into her pants, because and because she is Indian, and is outraged because he assumed that she was straight, or into him. Northern Indian lesbian goes to her blog on Columbia University's website to document this experience. Little does she know, the guy from the other group was gay and he wanted to get to know the guy from the first group who may have been gay. This is how microaggression culture works.

Guilty white liberal students at Columbia University, having heard only that "white guy was making assumptions with respect to Northern Indian girl's sexuality, being racist because he suggested curry, and being a pervert because he wanted to get into her pants" assume that, because they are taught to believe that all men are pigs, this is a true account, and question it no further.

It's not just perceived victimhood; it's feigned, perceived victimhood, predicated on idiotic assumptions that have no bearing in objective reality.

As is obviously the case, northern indian lesbian who has been taught to identify cases of victimhood which never existed, has made precisely the same kinds of assumptions she was taught not to make in her cultural awareness class, in promulgating this narrative of her feigned victimhood. She assumed that guy in the other group was straight, and that he was trying to get into her pants because she assumed that he was straight, and she assumed that she was the victim of a racist, sexist bigoted pervert. All of her compatriots in this shared delusion do not dare to question her, because to question any victim of a racist, sexist, bigoted pervert is heresy in that circle of madness.

This is why MA theory is intellectual trash. This is the cultural extension of whining about MAs, which are feigned instances of victimhood. It is an affront to the authentic instances of social injustice which have actually occurred. It is a socioculturally deleterious academic pursuit to the extent that it is conceptually promulgated among the country at large.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:04:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
If you were wondering, the interaction described above did actually happen when I was a sophomore in college... except I was the guy in the first group, and we were not at Columbia university. I discovered the blog because black girlfriend of mine showed me northern indian lesbian's post. Names are omitted for obvious reasons. I was the guy who may or may not be gay.
Tsar of DDO
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce. Micro-aggression theory, as it was originally formulated, wasn't bad. Unfortunately, the same thing happened to it which happened to gaze theory: it's was 'tumblrized', then spread around on college campuses, and now it's been reduced to a bunch of idiotic grievance-mongering devoid of nuance.

It's part of the absolutely infantile attitude among progressives which holds that life should be free of any sort of hardship, stress, or trauma. These things are part of life, and the point is to overcome them, not avoid them to a degree which is completely neurotic and crippling.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:39:58 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce. Micro-aggression theory, as it was originally formulated, wasn't bad. Unfortunately, the same thing happened to it which happened to gaze theory: it's was 'tumblrized', then spread around on college campuses, and now it's been reduced to a bunch of idiotic grievance-mongering devoid of nuance.

Devoid of far more than only nuance... devoid of substance, merit or value.

It's part of the absolutely infantile attitude among progressives which holds that life should be free of any sort of hardship, stress, or trauma. These things are part of life, and the point is to overcome them, not avoid them to a degree which is completely neurotic and crippling.

I agree entirely.
Tsar of DDO
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:40:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce. Micro-aggression theory, as it was originally formulated, wasn't bad. Unfortunately, the same thing happened to it which happened to gaze theory: it's was 'tumblrized', then spread around on college campuses, and now it's been reduced to a bunch of idiotic grievance-mongering devoid of nuance.

It's part of the absolutely infantile attitude among progressives which holds that life should be free of any sort of hardship, stress, or trauma. These things are part of life, and the point is to overcome them, not avoid them to a degree which is completely neurotic and crippling.

Still nothing to be getting so worked up about. Interesting point of view, though.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:03:04 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

So... cut your hair like a middle class white man or no job? Very dismissive, Greyparrot. Very dismissive.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:03:05 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

That's a cop out, as a ponytail and tattoos aren't things that you are born with and then have to spend a considerable amount of time changing in order to fit society's definition of 'acceptable'. Seeing the natural state of someone's hair, which is a racial characteristic, as disqualifying for a job cannot be anything other than ingrained, systemic racism. It'd be just as absurd to expect all blondes to dye their hair before working, except black people have to go through a lot more work in order to make their hair 'professional', to the point that many of them just wear wigs. When it gets to the point where you have people buying fake, white-looking hair in order to be taken seriously in the job market, you've got a deep-seated problem with how you define 'professional'.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:04:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:03:04 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

So... cut your hair like a middle class white man or no job? Very dismissive, Greyparrot. Very dismissive.

It's still a job offer, not aggression.
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:06:34 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:04:07 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:03:04 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

So... cut your hair like a middle class white man or no job? Very dismissive, Greyparrot. Very dismissive.

It's still a job offer, not aggression.

Semantics.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:06:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:03:05 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

That's a cop out, as a ponytail and tattoos aren't things that you are born with and then have to spend a considerable amount of time changing in order to fit society's definition of 'acceptable'.

Is it your claim that most people regard being born black as not acceptable?

Seeing the natural state of someone's hair, which is a racial characteristic, as disqualifying for a job cannot be anything other than ingrained, systemic racism. It'd be just as absurd to expect all blondes to dye their hair before working, except black people have to go through a lot more work in order to make their hair 'professional', to the point that many of them just wear wigs. When it gets to the point where you have people buying fake, white-looking hair in order to be taken seriously in the job market, you've got a deep-seated problem with how you define 'professional'.
Tsar of DDO
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:10:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM, Devilry wrote:
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.

You think that micro-aggression theory will reduce neuroticism? In what possible way is that?
Tsar of DDO
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:15:19 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:10:50 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM, Devilry wrote:
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.

You think that micro-aggression theory will reduce neuroticism? In what possible way is that?

Well there is no resolution without confrontation, right? But I was mostly just saying that because I do imagine that a large part of what paranoia is is made up of a certain sensitivity to these micro-aggressions.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:17:22 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:15:19 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:10:50 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM, Devilry wrote:
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.

You think that micro-aggression theory will reduce neuroticism? In what possible way is that?

Well there is no resolution without confrontation, right? But I was mostly just saying that because I do imagine that a large part of what paranoia is is made up of a certain sensitivity to these micro-aggressions.

What kind of paranoia?

People have to be taught what micro-aggressions are in order to be paranoid about them; I'm advocating that they not even be taught.
Tsar of DDO
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:21:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:17:22 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:15:19 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:10:50 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM, Devilry wrote:
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.

You think that micro-aggression theory will reduce neuroticism? In what possible way is that?

Well there is no resolution without confrontation, right? But I was mostly just saying that because I do imagine that a large part of what paranoia is is made up of a certain sensitivity to these micro-aggressions.

What kind of paranoia?

Well I don't know? Paranoia. Are there multiple kinds? I'm talking about those questions you always see on psychological questionnaires: "Do you feel as if everyone is plotting behind your back?" and so forth.

People have to be taught what micro-aggressions are in order to be paranoid about them; I'm advocating that they not even be taught.

Science is antithetical to paranoia. I see no problem with people being given a hearing in airing such things.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:22:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:06:34 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:04:07 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:03:04 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

So... cut your hair like a middle class white man or no job? Very dismissive, Greyparrot. Very dismissive.

It's still a job offer, not aggression.

Semantics.

It's not semantics, nor is it systemic. I can find 100 examples of job offers that have weird decor requirements for every rare 1 you can find that requires no afros.

It's most definitely not systemic when the vast majority of employers really could care less if you come to work with a 70's balloon afro.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:23:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:21:37 AM, Devilry wrote:
Science is antithetical to paranoia. I see no problem with people being given a hearing in airing such things.

If MA's were taught in the way that presented them as what they are (farcical nonsense), then I wouldn't have a problem with their being taught either.

The thing is that they condition young impressionable kids to see themselves as victims, and that leads to some really bad outcomes.
Tsar of DDO
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:24:38 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:06:55 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:03:05 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

That's a cop out, as a ponytail and tattoos aren't things that you are born with and then have to spend a considerable amount of time changing in order to fit society's definition of 'acceptable'.

Is it your claim that most people regard being born black as not acceptable?

I don't think that they would parse it quite in that way, but I think that, when someone holds the belief that something like hair texture is not acceptable in the workplace that the sentiment is floating somewhere in their subconscious. And it's more the idea of 'these people shouldn't be in MY space' than 'these people shouldn't be born.'
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:25:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
And if you are going to say a job offer is aggression, then any contract offer is an aggression, including all prices at every store you shop at and every advertisement you see. I can't see how someone could live like that.
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:26:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:23:08 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:21:37 AM, Devilry wrote:
Science is antithetical to paranoia. I see no problem with people being given a hearing in airing such things.

If MA's were taught in the way that presented them as what they are (farcical nonsense), then I wouldn't have a problem with their being taught either.

The thing is that they condition young impressionable kids to see themselves as victims, and that leads to some really bad outcomes.

Nobody who isn't a victim is ever going to see themselves as a victim. This is all harmless with a possibility of being of some worth. I don't really get what your issue is here. Something something an affront to actual injustices people have suffered. (Which is petty, btw.)
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
YYW
Posts: 36,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:28:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:24:38 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:06:55 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:03:05 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

That's a cop out, as a ponytail and tattoos aren't things that you are born with and then have to spend a considerable amount of time changing in order to fit society's definition of 'acceptable'.

Is it your claim that most people regard being born black as not acceptable?

I don't think that they would parse it quite in that way, but I think that, when someone holds the belief that something like hair texture is not acceptable in the workplace that the sentiment is floating somewhere in their subconscious. And it's more the idea of 'these people shouldn't be in MY space' than 'these people shouldn't be born.'

I think the "natural hair" issue is vastly overstated, as are all micro-aggressions. Sure, there are some employers who would prefer that black women wear their hair a certain way, but they also prefer that all employees also wear their hair a certain way... the fact that black women also happen to be subject to similar constraints does not mean that they are the victims of micro-aggressions.

Natural (as in unstyled hair, without products etc. even if clean) white hair is profoundly unacceptable in the workplace for women as well, as is evidenced by the appearance of all men and women in all workplace environments ever.

Only men who cut their hair very short of any race can not put products in their hair, although the style has to be of a very certain kind to be able to pull that off.

Arguments that black women are singled out are inconsistent with reality.
Tsar of DDO
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:31:07 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:25:06 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
And if you are going to say a job offer is aggression, then any contract offer is an aggression, including all prices at every store you shop at and every advertisement you see. I can't see how someone could live like that.

You really do know how to dance, Greyparrot. I'm unsure if I want to bother myself with continuing this exchange with you; you seem pretty set in your ways. I would say it's certainly a sort of aggression to go fingering natural black hairstyles as undesirable, though. It's like the next step down from plastering 'No Blacks' over your door come interviewing time. Wouldn't you say that was wrong?
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:32:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:31:07 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:25:06 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
And if you are going to say a job offer is aggression, then any contract offer is an aggression, including all prices at every store you shop at and every advertisement you see. I can't see how someone could live like that.

You really do know how to dance, Greyparrot. I'm unsure if I want to bother myself with continuing this exchange with you; you seem pretty set in your ways. I would say it's certainly a sort of aggression to go fingering natural black hairstyles as undesirable, though. It's like the next step down from plastering 'No Blacks' over your door come interviewing time. Wouldn't you say that was wrong?

I could say the same thing for you.

If you have to work that hard to figure out what an aggression really is, maybe your dissonance is trying to tell you something.
Devilry
Posts: 450
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:34:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:32:31 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:31:07 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:25:06 AM, Greyparrot wrote:
And if you are going to say a job offer is aggression, then any contract offer is an aggression, including all prices at every store you shop at and every advertisement you see. I can't see how someone could live like that.

You really do know how to dance, Greyparrot. I'm unsure if I want to bother myself with continuing this exchange with you; you seem pretty set in your ways. I would say it's certainly a sort of aggression to go fingering natural black hairstyles as undesirable, though. It's like the next step down from plastering 'No Blacks' over your door come interviewing time. Wouldn't you say that was wrong?

I could say the same thing for you.

If you have to work that hard to figure out what an aggression really is, maybe your dissonance is trying to tell you something.

What really is an aggression, then, Greyparrot? Slapping the black people in shackles? Can we call it mirco-antagonization, then, and maybe you'll give something quite obviously fair its fair hearing? Let's not play autistic with our words.
: : : At 11/15/2016 6:22:17 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
: That's not racism. Thats economics.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:38:25 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:28:57 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:24:38 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:06:55 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:03:05 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:57:15 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 9/26/2015 11:37:02 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
I think that there ARE valid examples. And instance would be black natural hairstyles being seen as 'unprofessional', which puts a real strain on black people trying to enter the workforce.

Like I told PCP earlier, that is not microaggression, it is a job offer. As a white man with tatoos and a ponytail, nobody besides your parents are going to aggress you about turning down a job offer.

That's a cop out, as a ponytail and tattoos aren't things that you are born with and then have to spend a considerable amount of time changing in order to fit society's definition of 'acceptable'.

Is it your claim that most people regard being born black as not acceptable?

I don't think that they would parse it quite in that way, but I think that, when someone holds the belief that something like hair texture is not acceptable in the workplace that the sentiment is floating somewhere in their subconscious. And it's more the idea of 'these people shouldn't be in MY space' than 'these people shouldn't be born.'

I think the "natural hair" issue is vastly overstated, as are all micro-aggressions. Sure, there are some employers who would prefer that black women wear their hair a certain way, but they also prefer that all employees also wear their hair a certain way... the fact that black women also happen to be subject to similar constraints does not mean that they are the victims of micro-aggressions.

Natural (as in unstyled hair, without products etc. even if clean) white hair is profoundly unacceptable in the workplace for women as well, as is evidenced by the appearance of all men and women in all workplace environments ever.

I don't think that you understand how black hair works. 'Natural' does not mean unstyled, it means unstraightened/chemically treated to appear 'white'. It can be braided, curled, relaxed and styled in a whole range of ways, all of which are seen as unacceptable because the standard is modeled on white hair. That's why it's exclusionary: intricate and inoffensive styles, many of which take a lot more work than what would be considered 'professional' for a white person, are seen as unacceptable because they are not white.

Honestly, when you see a black girl with straight hair, that is a LOT of work, a lot of product, and, over the long term, a lot of damage to her hair.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
000ike
Posts: 11,196
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:44:21 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 9/27/2015 12:17:22 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:15:19 AM, Devilry wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:10:50 AM, YYW wrote:
At 9/27/2015 12:08:15 AM, Devilry wrote:
Anyway, I rather like this idea of micro-aggression theory. Might work as some grand airing of paranoia, maybe even reduce overall neuroticism, no? Or at the least I don't see it as anything at all to be getting so worked up about.

You think that micro-aggression theory will reduce neuroticism? In what possible way is that?

Well there is no resolution without confrontation, right? But I was mostly just saying that because I do imagine that a large part of what paranoia is is made up of a certain sensitivity to these micro-aggressions.

What kind of paranoia?

People have to be taught what micro-aggressions are in order to be paranoid about them; I'm advocating that they not even be taught.

I think this argument is kind of careless.

I can appreciate that the term has a high propensity for abuse, but it's constructed to identify those acts that are subtly prejudiced or only furtively biased . . . those methods of demeaning others that are insidious precisely because they're clearly understood by both the giving and receiving party but difficult to prove to an outside observer. By identifying and addressing micro-aggressions we vanquish the last hidden expressions of contempt and expose them for what they are, so their targets need no longer bear the offense in silence.

For example, the phrase "that's so gay!" usually stated by adolescent males to insult one another is a very classic example of a micro-aggression because they tacitly reject and emasculate homosexuality merely as a byproduct of a criticism of the individual addressed. On the one hand, who can accuse them of bigotry when in context the statement is really only meant as a synonym for "stupid, dumb, or bad" and the intention is mainly directed at criticizing a behavior. On the other hand, they're displaying a certain disregard for and an implied rejection of gays.

It would be wise to preserve the term micro-aggressions for such statements, rather than let the term be swallowed by a narrow class of cases abusing the term.
"A stupid despot may constrain his slaves with iron chains; but a true politician binds them even more strongly with the chain of their own ideas" - Michel Foucault
Greyparrot
Posts: 14,240
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
9/27/2015 12:45:03 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I won't be surprised to see a detailed explanation about how wearing clothes is a micro aggression because that person happened to be born naked....