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Justice or mercy?

ESocialBookworm
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10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Title says it. Which would you pick?
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

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In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

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Wylted
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10/1/2015 1:19:37 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

Mercy typically acts as an enabler to bad behavior, so Justice seems superior.
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/1/2015 2:33:47 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Depends on the situation.

Also, retributive "justice" is an evil to punish an evil. Purely retributive legal systems, instead of strongly rehabilitative ones, are not my idea of "justice".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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1harderthanyouthink
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10/1/2015 2:37:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Also, you cannot have private prisons in a society and claim to have a just penal system, due to the fact that they operate on the basis of keeping more inmates in prison longer.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/1/2015 3:30:18 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

Mercy can be justice; justice can be mercy. Which one I pick depends on the situation.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
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10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.
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YYW
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10/1/2015 3:31:31 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 2:37:52 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
Also, you cannot have private prisons in a society and claim to have a just penal system, due to the fact that they operate on the basis of keeping more inmates in prison longer.

Correct.
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1harderthanyouthink
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10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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YYW
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10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.
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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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YYW
Posts: 36,391
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10/1/2015 3:40:10 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

Giving prisoners the option to end their lives is different than execution, though.
Tsar of DDO
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/1/2015 3:42:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:40:10 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

Giving prisoners the option to end their lives is different than execution, though.

Yes, but it is probably more merciful, in the long run...not that my stance will ever change on the death penalty, because I still think it's way to retributive, but still...
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,078
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10/1/2015 3:56:24 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
That depends. It is virtuous to show mercy to one who has wronged you, but deciding to not show mercy (especially whenever they're not sorry) is not necessarily wrong and there is no virtue in deciding that somebody who hurt someone else (someone other than you) should not be punished. I think that the degree of punishment should be affected greatly by what the victim wants. If the victim wants to show mercy then let it be so. If the victim wants the perpetrator to receive full justice (which may mean the death penalty in some cases) then let that be so.
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ESocialBookworm
Posts: 14,373
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10/1/2015 10:15:52 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:42:06 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:40:10 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

Giving prisoners the option to end their lives is different than execution, though.

Yes, but it is probably more merciful, in the long run...not that my stance will ever change on the death penalty, because I still think it's way to retributive, but still...

*too :*
Solonkr~
I don't care about whether an ideology is "necessary" or not,
I care about how to solve problems,
which is what everyone else should also care about.

Ken~
In essence, the world is fucked up and you can either ignore it, become cynical or bitter about it.

Me~
"BAILEY + SOLON = SAILEY
MY SHIP SAILEY MUST SAIL"

SCREW THAT SHIZ #BANNIE = BAILEY & ANNIE

P.S. Shipped Sailey before it was cannon bitches.
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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10/1/2015 11:22:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

This would seem to apply specifically to the American prison system. Or are you including the various rehabilitative European ones as well?
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/1/2015 11:23:16 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 11:22:27 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

This would seem to apply specifically to the American prison system. Or are you including the various rehabilitative European ones as well?

Probably not.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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10/1/2015 11:25:10 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 11:23:16 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 11:22:27 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

This would seem to apply specifically to the American prison system. Or are you including the various rehabilitative European ones as well?

Probably not.

So many things are wrong with the American prison system...but that's a long topic, and I think we agree on most of it anyway,
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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10/1/2015 11:28:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 11:25:10 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/1/2015 11:23:16 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 11:22:27 PM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:38:54 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:37:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:35:13 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/1/2015 3:31:16 AM, YYW wrote:
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

In the case of the woman that the state of Georgia recently executed... that was the most disgusting thing I have seen any state do in a long time. Mercy. Even if someone killed my own family member, I would still categorically oppose the death penalty.

Several weeks ago, in a Google Hangout, the death penalty was being discussed. I think it was Skep or TBR (or both) who held an interesting point that if someone really wants to be retributive, the death penalty is nothing compared to five decades alone in a cell - the death penalty can be merciful.

I've heard the argument before, and it's not one I am persuaded by. I agree that the way we treat prisoners is not good, and that the effects of, for example, solitary confinement can be psychologically profound, but I don't agree that that makes the death penalty merciful.

I would rather be dead than spend 40, 50, or 60 years in a prison.

This would seem to apply specifically to the American prison system. Or are you including the various rehabilitative European ones as well?

Probably not.

So many things are wrong with the American prison system...but that's a long topic, and I think we agree on most of it anyway,

Indeed.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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bsh1
Posts: 27,504
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10/1/2015 11:38:30 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
http://www.debate.org...

This was actually something Kasmic and I talked about just a few days before this thread.
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bladerunner060
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10/3/2015 8:40:23 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/1/2015 1:14:45 AM, ESocialBookworm wrote:
Title says it. Which would you pick?

It depends on how you mean the question. Which would I pick in what context? As a broad societal rule? Given that I can't expect mercy to be given by individuals, giving up justice for mercy from a societal standpoint is a recipe for catastrophe; mercy is compassion or forgiveness shown toward someone whom it is within one's power to punish or harm--which does no good to the person who has been harmed. Justice, by contrast, DOES do good to the wronged party. I can't expect justice from individuals, but if I could expect justice from society, then that would ameliorate the problem.
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