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Is There a Solid Basis to be a Feminist?

Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/10/2015 2:31:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
As you might assume from the title, I am not a Feminist. However a lot of people are, and this makes me wonder why.
I wrote arguments against common arguments for Feminism, but they were too long for me to use on debate.org. Please read them, argue against them, and whatever else. I will continue to post other parts to these arguments, so feel free to check every once in awhile if you want to know what other arguments that I have.
Here is a link to Wattpad, where I will be posting these arguments:
Link:
https://www.wattpad.com...#
-Blue
YYW
Posts: 36,282
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10/10/2015 2:47:42 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Feminism exists in many forms. Some of them are reasonable, others are not.

One of the things you'll notice is that when people defend "feminism" the version of it they are defending is the least controversial (e.g. "woman and men should be treated equally.") whereas the versions of feminism that are often attacked are the most radical (e.g. "women occupy a place in society different from, and superior to men due to inherent and sociological differences between the genders, such that women are better suited to lead and govern world politics than men."). Both versions very much "exist" but feminism does not lend itself to a singular understanding.

I wrote a post about feminism a long time ago explaining it, as a political ideology, if you are interested in learning more about it. I certainly don't think there is anything wrong with being a feminist, or a Republican, or a Democrat, or embracing any other political ideology (except communism and naziism... those are, I think, inherently immoral by the nature of their theories of human order, albeit for different reasons).
Tsar of DDO
Nivek
Posts: 242
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10/10/2015 3:30:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 2:31:01 AM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
As you might assume from the title, I am not a Feminist. However a lot of people are, and this makes me wonder why.
I wrote arguments against common arguments for Feminism, but they were too long for me to use on debate.org. Please read them, argue against them, and whatever else. I will continue to post other parts to these arguments, so feel free to check every once in awhile if you want to know what other arguments that I have.
Here is a link to Wattpad, where I will be posting these arguments:
Link:
https://www.wattpad.com...#

The argument can fit in DDO, just put in multiple posts. Not everyone is on wattpatt to view it.

Your entire argument rests on how women favors traditional social roles and how statistics reflect this theory. I don't see how a statistic of majors correlate with such a theory and I don't see how women favors the housewife role over the breadwinner role. You'd have to prove how a set of majors are linked to high income jobs and how some are linked to low income. Plus, Families have leaned heavily on nuclear forms, and women tend to marry late rather than early. Further, those cohabiting are increasing in numbers and they may outpace those in the marriage business. Your statistics may not be representative of society as a whole.

I'm tired to find statistics, sorry too lazy lol.
Nivek
Posts: 242
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10/10/2015 3:31:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 2:47:42 AM, YYW wrote:
One of the things you'll notice is that when people defend "feminism" the version of it they are defending is the least controversial (e.g. "woman and men should be treated equally.") whereas the versions of feminism that are often attacked are the most radical (e.g. "women occupy a place in society different from, and superior to men due to inherent and sociological differences between the genders, such that women are better suited to lead and govern world politics than men."). Both versions very much "exist" but feminism does not lend itself to a singular understanding.

OMG SO MUCH THIS. people need to stop clunking us into one single category and start learning the differences between each strand.
SM2
Posts: 546
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10/10/2015 6:39:56 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Not really.

Don't get me wrong, gender equality is great, but the fight is kind of pointless when 90% of society already agrees with you. Any remaining issues require patch-up jobs, not societal upheaval.

The only people who cling to the Feminist Movement are those who depend upon it. My advice: stay away from them.
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/10/2015 10:51:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
@Nivek
Yeah but still keep in mind that no matter what, radical feminism is still Feminism no matter how much you want to deny it.
Same with moderate Islam and radical Islam. The two are very different but still have the same roots.
-Blue
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/10/2015 10:53:27 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 6:34:07 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is There a Solid Basis to be a Feminist?

Yes, equality.

That is a pretty vague answer, and we can have equality without Feminism. I think it is a little outdated and most women already are equal to men so there wouldn't be much of a point.
-Blue
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/10/2015 11:09:19 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 3:30:02 AM, Nivek wrote:
At 10/10/2015 2:31:01 AM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
As you might assume from the title, I am not a Feminist. However a lot of people are, and this makes me wonder why.
I wrote arguments against common arguments for Feminism, but they were too long for me to use on debate.org. Please read them, argue against them, and whatever else. I will continue to post other parts to these arguments, so feel free to check every once in awhile if you want to know what other arguments that I have.
Here is a link to Wattpad, where I will be posting these arguments:
Link:
https://www.wattpad.com...#

The argument can fit in DDO, just put in multiple posts. Not everyone is on wattpatt to view it.

Your entire argument rests on how women favors traditional social roles and how statistics reflect this theory. I don't see how a statistic of majors correlate with such a theory and I don't see how women favors the housewife role over the breadwinner role. You'd have to prove how a set of majors are linked to high income jobs and how some are linked to low income. Plus, Families have leaned heavily on nuclear forms, and women tend to marry late rather than early. Further, those cohabiting are increasing in numbers and they may outpace those in the marriage business. Your statistics may not be representative of society as a whole.

I'm tired to find statistics, sorry too lazy lol.

When I was looking for college majors that was to show what kind of careers women wanted to pursue in life. That is reflected on what women choose to study. It is the same thing with men, since most of them take the jobs that are in the same field as their degree.
I also got the idea that women wanted to stay home from one of my teachers, which he said that a lot of women are starting to quit their jobs because they would rather stay at home and have as much time with their children as possible. He even used several of my other teachers as an example, one which is pregnant right now.
I don't really know where to get studies to prove this, so the best I can do for now is Times magazine:
http://ideas.time.com...

At the least, I can say that my research proved that the wage gap isn't a plot by the patriarchy so I'll just say job well done for me.
-Blue
Nivek
Posts: 242
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10/11/2015 4:06:57 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 10:51:57 PM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
@Nivek
Yeah but still keep in mind that no matter what, radical feminism is still Feminism no matter how much you want to deny it.
Same with moderate Islam and radical Islam. The two are very different but still have the same roots.

One side wishes to abolish the social status of gender. One side wishes to reform the social status of gender. Same roots? Explain.
Nivek
Posts: 242
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10/11/2015 4:39:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 11:09:19 PM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
When I was looking for college majors that was to show what kind of careers women wanted to pursue in life. That is reflected on what women choose to study. It is the same thing with men, since most of them take the jobs that are in the same field as their degree.

I can see where you're going but you still need to prove how a given major leads to low income jobs. Your argument did no such thing. All you did was a comparison of Engineering and Social science. And what makes you think low income requires less work than high income? How does sitting on your couch like a self-indulged capitalist qualifies as "Hard work" ?Where is the exact line you're drawing here? Society requires more than the typical X to Y that MRA usually offers. This isn't physics. You cannot measure the religiosity of a population by simply counting the amount of cars in your local church on Sundays.

I also got the idea that women wanted to stay home from one of my teachers, which he said that a lot of women are starting to quit their jobs because they would rather stay at home and have as much time with their children as possible. He even used several of my other teachers as an example, one which is pregnant right now.
I don't really know where to get studies to prove this, so the best I can do for now is Times magazine:
http://ideas.time.com...

At the least, I can say that my research proved that the wage gap isn't a plot by the patriarchy so I'll just say job well done for me.

Caring for children is an isolated variable because it is the responsibility of both spouses to care for them. Women tend to marry late, along WITH having a full-time job. They were also responsible for most of the chores. So they have 3 major things to care in their life, their job,family and their household. If your argument holds, then there is more work for women than men given that men are usually perceived as the breadwinner and the 'ego maniac' that cares little for his children. If anything, your argument seems to prove the very thing we're trying to prove, inequality between genders.
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/11/2015 12:37:25 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 4:06:57 AM, Nivek wrote:
At 10/10/2015 10:51:57 PM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
@Nivek
Yeah but still keep in mind that no matter what, radical feminism is still Feminism no matter how much you want to deny it.
Same with moderate Islam and radical Islam. The two are very different but still have the same roots.

One side wishes to abolish the social status of gender. One side wishes to reform the social status of gender. Same roots? Explain.

Of course they have the same roots, they all came from the original Feminist movement. If that didn"t happen, neither forms would exist today.
There are three main waves of Feminism:
The first wave which was during the late 19th/early 20th centuries and which women were asking for basic rights. "The goal of this wave was to open up opportunities for women, with a focus on suffrage." This movement only focused on white women, however.
Fast forward to the mid to late 1900"s and we have the second wave of Feminism. "The New Left was on the rise, and the voice of the second wave was increasingly radical. In this phase, sexuality and reproductive rights were dominant issues, and much of the movement's energy was focused on passing the Equal Rights Amendment to the constitution guaranteeing social equality regardless of sex." Not only that, but the second wave became inclusive of other races.
Finally, the third wave of Feminism began in the mid-1990s. This would focus on word censorship (things like sl*t, b*tch and whatever can be considered an insult to a woman), what is feminine (I can"t really be specific considering there are Feminists on both sides of the argument) and how women are portrayed in the media (good or bad.)
(http://www.pacificu.edu...)
Both radical and modern Feminism are in the same wave, so why do you question that they"re related? Like I said before they are just as related as radical and moderate religion. The only real difference is that moderates don"t want to burn men at the stake and don"t stand for the insane beliefs that a radical does. They still claim that women need equal rights.
-Blue
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/11/2015 1:20:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 4:39:00 AM, Nivek wrote:
At 10/10/2015 11:09:19 PM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
When I was looking for college majors that was to show what kind of careers women wanted to pursue in life. That is reflected on what women choose to study. It is the same thing with men, since most of them take the jobs that are in the same field as their degree.

I can see where you're going but you still need to prove how a given major leads to low income jobs. Your argument did no such thing. All you did was a comparison of Engineering and Social science. And what makes you think low income requires less work than high income? How does sitting on your couch like a self-indulged capitalist qualifies as "Hard work" ?Where is the exact line you're drawing here? Society requires more than the typical X to Y that MRA usually offers. This isn't physics. You cannot measure the religiosity of a population by simply counting the amount of cars in your local church on Sundays.

I also got the idea that women wanted to stay home from one of my teachers, which he said that a lot of women are starting to quit their jobs because they would rather stay at home and have as much time with their children as possible. He even used several of my other teachers as an example, one which is pregnant right now.
I don't really know where to get studies to prove this, so the best I can do for now is Times magazine:
http://ideas.time.com...

At the least, I can say that my research proved that the wage gap isn't a plot by the patriarchy so I'll just say job well done for me.

Caring for children is an isolated variable because it is the responsibility of both spouses to care for them. Women tend to marry late, along WITH having a full-time job. They were also responsible for most of the chores. So they have 3 major things to care in their life, their job,family and their household. If your argument holds, then there is more work for women than men given that men are usually perceived as the breadwinner and the 'ego maniac' that cares little for his children. If anything, your argument seems to prove the very thing we're trying to prove, inequality between genders.

"you still need to prove how a given major leads to low income jobs" That wasn't exactly what I was trying to prove in the first place. Since people study a certain subject I was trying to show what fields women wanted to pursue and compare them to what men want to pursue in college. Some degrees can actually increase your salary, and since most higher paying degrees are taken by men, I was trying to show that it leads to being paid less, not necessarily a low income job.
I didn't say that low income required less work, I am trying to say that there are quite a few low income jobs that are more convenient for a single parent, or just a mother in general. For example, my mom has a job that doesn't pay a lot, but it is about as long as a typical school day so I don't always have to be alone at home (not like I would have a problem with it, though.) Also a lot of these jobs are convenient in other ways as well, and they are in areas like big cities. I can guarantee that a lot of single moms live near the city because that is where the most opportunities are.
More children are living in a single parent household (1), and if the parent is divorced then it is most likely a woman (women are more likely to receive the children in a child custody battle.)
"Two-thirds of mothers living with their children have a spouse present, compared with 86 percent for fathers. Twenty-five percent of mothers with children under age 18 have no partner present in the household, in contrast to just 6 percent of fathers." There are more single mothers than there are single fathers.
Also "Nearly half of children living with a single mother -- 45 percent -- live below the poverty line."(2)
Keep in mind that most women choose to have jobs that pay less than men, and if there are a lot of single mothers living below the poverty line, then a lot of them choose to get jobs that would pay less. That isn't sexism, that isn't a plot from the patriarchy, that isn't gender inequality. That is bad decision making. One of the most important things I was taught in school is to never have kids when I couldn't afford it. Most people living in poverty (or those who are close to it) usually have children. That is bad decision making because a child can cost about a half of a million dollars each! People who are well educated and have more money are less likely to have kids, just look at Japan. Japan is a well educated country, but they have a population problem because people are not having children. Why? Because they knew the cost of it.
I feel bad for these women, I really do, but we can't just bend the rules and pay them more. Men usually work more than women, so they earn the money that they have. Again, that isn't sexism.
These are people's life choices, and if they think that it's the best option, then so be it. The only thing that can fix this is through raising the minimum wage, which is not a 'Feminist' issue. Neither is decreasing the massive gap between first and third class people. We don't need Feminism to fix this because Feminism can't. Even others have had a huge difficulty in raising the minimum wage. But seriously, if you want them to earn more money then go to a movement that can actually fix it. (I don't mean it in a mean way, but that is just how the country works. Go to someone that can and will fix a problem.)
If your still going to be a Feminist then please lay out how you think your going to completely change the mindset of women, force thousands of them to take male dominated jobs, and stop them from having kids. They are using their newly given rights to make these choices, so what are you going to do to change that?

Sources:
1. http://www.philly.com...
2. http://www.pewresearch.org...
-Blue
Nac
Posts: 326
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10/11/2015 5:08:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 6:34:07 AM, briantheliberal wrote:
Is There a Solid Basis to be a Feminist?

Yes, equality.

I presume you state this because the common definition of feminism is generally claimed to strive for equality in many respects across all genders. If this is false, please correct me.

I think egalitarianism is the word for this type of equality. The label, "feminist," seems to be completely unnecessary to strive for equality.

I would even go so far as to posit that the term cannot hold the definition above, at least not while encompassing all who claim to be feminists. Radical feminists, under the definition I posed at the onset, cannot be feminists. It would be the equivalent of having a group calling themselves Christian Atheists: the two cannot coexist.

Feminism is, by this reasoning, unnecessary to strive for gender equality.
cathyfriend101
Posts: 12
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10/11/2015 6:06:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/10/2015 2:31:01 AM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
As you might assume from the title, I am not a Feminist. However a lot of people are, and this makes me wonder why.
I wrote arguments against common arguments for Feminism, but they were too long for me to use on debate.org. Please read them, argue against them, and whatever else. I will continue to post other parts to these arguments, so feel free to check every once in awhile if you want to know what other arguments that I have.
Here is a link to Wattpad, where I will be posting these arguments:
Link:
https://www.wattpad.com...#
Feminists fight for equality between genders, just beacuse we have "every legal right a man does" as you say, dosent mean we are equal, which is why feminism still exsits today. If you are a woman and you think that your aren't being oppressed, you really need stop looking at the world through rose colored glasses.
Bluepaintcan123
Posts: 17
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10/11/2015 6:41:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/11/2015 6:06:36 PM, cathyfriend101 wrote:
At 10/10/2015 2:31:01 AM, Bluepaintcan123 wrote:
As you might assume from the title, I am not a Feminist. However a lot of people are, and this makes me wonder why.
I wrote arguments against common arguments for Feminism, but they were too long for me to use on debate.org. Please read them, argue against them, and whatever else. I will continue to post other parts to these arguments, so feel free to check every once in awhile if you want to know what other arguments that I have.
Here is a link to Wattpad, where I will be posting these arguments:
Link:
https://www.wattpad.com...#
Feminists fight for equality between genders, just beacuse we have "every legal right a man does" as you say, dosent mean we are equal, which is why feminism still exsits today. If you are a woman and you think that your aren't being oppressed, you really need stop looking at the world through rose colored glasses.

I am not looking at the world through rose-colored glasses hon, I'm looking at it from a realistic view. What does Feminism do (in today's society) that will make the world less sexist? All I ever see Feminists say is that we need to either get rid of sexy video game characters (which is a terrible idea), censor words that are "offensive", or make sure that a man cannot compliment you because it could possibly be taken the wrong way (and no more "offensive jokes.") I am not ignorant of what Feminism has done, and that is why I am an anti-feminist.
They're taking the movement too far, and because they're a minority people are taking them seriously. Things like the wage gap don't even exist (it is not a plot from the patriarchy) or "rape culture."
Feminism has nothing to offer me, or most women in the Western world. The only place it is needed is in the parts of the world where Feminists can't reach.
-Blue