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Should Gay Conversion Therapy be Banned?

bsh1
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10/28/2015 1:24:14 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Read and contribute please!

http://news.yahoo.com...
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BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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10/28/2015 1:28:29 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Definitely not. Completely ignoring the authoritarian and regulatory aspect of why I am opposed to it, there are some other pretty obvious reasons as well.
bsh1
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10/28/2015 1:44:36 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 1:41:54 AM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 10/28/2015 1:24:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
What is your stance on the issue?

It should be banned as a forum of fraud and child abuse.
Live Long and Prosper

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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2015 3:11:01 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 1:24:14 AM, bsh1 wrote:
Read and contribute please!

http://news.yahoo.com...

"Now 27, Shurka is an advocate in a growing movement to outlaw the discredited practice of conversion therapy for LGBT minors, a movement that has recently received the support of President Obama, the surgeon general, and a number of state and federal lawmakers."

I find the underlined particularly interesting.
If it is so discredited, then why not ban it altogether?
My work here is, finally, done.
Sarai.K82
Posts: 30
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10/28/2015 3:20:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Yes with respect to minors. I've read nothing that convinces me it has any legitimate medical or ethical purpose and I believe there is ample evidence it can cause harm. I don't oppose with respect to consenting adults who choose to seek it. And I don't oppose traditional therapy aimed at helping individuals understand who they are.
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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10/28/2015 3:53:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 3:20:55 AM, Sarai.K82 wrote:
Yes with respect to minors. I've read nothing that convinces me it has any legitimate medical or ethical purpose and I believe there is ample evidence it can cause harm. I don't oppose with respect to consenting adults who choose to seek it. And I don't oppose traditional therapy aimed at helping individuals understand who they are.

Why the distinction between minors and adults?
If it is harmful, it is harmful. If it is fraud, it is fraud. Who are you to determine how a parent raises their child? Is me not getting my child a flu shot child abuse, too? Taking him to church? Making him volunteer? Grounding? Spanking? Allowing him to have a cell phone? Not allowing him to have a cell phone?
Where do you draw the line at what parents are allowed to do, presumably, in the best interest of their child?
My work here is, finally, done.
BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 4:20:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 1:44:36 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It should be banned as a forum of fraud and child abuse.

I think I may know where you are going with the fraud thing, but I have no idea what you are trying to say with child abuse.

Would you be opposed to psychiatrists using certain tactics to get children to come out as homosexuals?
BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 4:28:16 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 3:53:43 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
Why the distinction between minors and adults?
If it is harmful, it is harmful. If it is fraud, it is fraud. Who are you to determine how a parent raises their child? Is me not getting my child a flu shot child abuse, too? Taking him to church? Making him volunteer? Grounding? Spanking? Allowing him to have a cell phone? Not allowing him to have a cell phone?
Where do you draw the line at what parents are allowed to do, presumably, in the best interest of their child?

This could be a slippery slope for anyone arguing to ban it. Of course you are going to be exposed to countless things during your childhood that you make not come to like as an adult, but it seems that adults only want children exposed to the things they like and not the things they do not.

My theory is that most of the liberals who would want to ban conversion therapy, have nothing against advocacy groups propagating homosexuality to youth. I am totally fine with both, but the worst thing you can do to a child is put them in an insular enviornment where they are only exposed to one idea.

More importantly is how statists are content on banning, controlling, and regulating society, because they have become so brainwashed and self absorbed, that they truly believe that by resorting to authoritarianism, they can create a perfect society.
Vox_Veritas
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10/28/2015 4:43:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
First of all, I think that it is possible for a person to suppress sexual desires. However, they must truly want to for it to be successful.
That being said, I've heard that the methods employed by most conversion therapists are just plain stupid and I don't see how those certain therapists would have any success at all.
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Sarai.K82
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10/28/2015 4:52:09 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 3:53:43 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

Why the distinction between minors and adults?

I believe in a society where adults are free to do stupid things to themselves even when the decision may be harmful or fraudulent. Adults are free to smoke, drink, and pay some idiot to read their fortune if they want.

On the other hand, society has a stronger interest in protecting minors from unnecessary harm even if a parent consents to that harm. We don't let minors drink even if the parent consents. The law doesn't let minors smoke even if the parent consents. And generally, the law won't let parent's withhold necessary medical treatment from a minor based on religious beliefs even if the parent doesn't want the child operated on. [1] I briefly reiterate my distinction between adults and minor. I do believe that a competent adult should be free to reject medical care for themselves because of their religious beliefs. I do not believe this right extends to rejecting medical care for children.

If it is harmful, it is harmful. If it is fraud, it is fraud. Who are you to determine how a :parent raises their child? Is me not getting my child a flu shot child abuse, too? Taking :him to church? Making him volunteer? Grounding? Spanking? Allowing him to have a :cell phone? Not allowing him to have a cell phone?

I am actually not in a position to tell you how to raise your child. But let me briefly address my position on some of your issues.

Flu shots? Maybe. I know it's a requirement in New York City. [2] I also know that there is an argument that we should require children to be vaccinated for the flu generally. [3] Do you live in an area where there is no chance that your child will expose an elderly or immune deficient individual to the flu? Do you live in an area where there is adequate medical facilities if your child gets the flu?

I am afraid you and the state and local authorities where you live are going to have to grapple with the flu issue.

Taking your child to church. No, I have no objection to you taking your child to church. We're not talking about a church where you force your minor child to handle poisonous reptiles, sacrifice live animals, or smoke peyote are we? If so, I guess I would have to think about my position a bit more thoroughly. If you have some evidence that the particular church is fraudulent or actively causing harm to the child (like beating a child to get him to confess his sins), then that also might best be taken into consideration.

Cell Phone. I think most children would argue its abuse if you deprive a child of his or her cell phone. I'm cool with it if you are.

Spanking? I generally don't favor spanking. But if you're not leaving bruises and welts, then I think society lets parents exercise some decision making in this area.

Grounding and making him volunteer. I don't know anyone who feels this is subjecting a child to harm. But if by grounding, you mean locking a child into his closet for a year or something extreme like that, then yeah, I'd certainly object. The same with volunteering in the ordinary sense of the word. I think most people feel this is a positive idea.

Where do you draw the line at what parents are allowed to do, presumably, in the :best interest of their child?

I think that parents are generally allowed to draw the line for almost everything regarding their child. But there are lines that society has determined should not be crossed, because the damage to the child so far outweighs any possible benefit that society chooses to enact law to step in.

You do agree that there are such lines? Even if we disagree that this is the appropriate line. You wouldn't allow a parent to sacrifice his child on an alter even if he firmly believed that God commanded it In other words, if a dad said that like Abraham, he had been commanded to sacrifice his only son, you'd agree the state has a right to step in?

What we are arguing about here is two things. One, is gay conversion therapy one such line? The second thing is can the line be different for adults and children?

I say yes to the first question without claiming to be an expert on the subject. Luckily for those who oppose my position, I'm never going to be asked to vote on or decide the issue. We live in a representative government and someone else is making that decision.

The second question I've answered by pointing out that society traditionally draws different lines for adults and minors. Adults get to make stupid decisions on their own behalf. As a society, we are more likely to step in and protect minors from the result of fraud and stupidity.

[1] http://www.csicop.org...

[2] http://www.nyc.gov...

[3] http://time.com...
Vox_Veritas
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10/28/2015 4:54:12 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
I don't think that the act of coercing kids with homosexual desires to suppress them undertaken by religious parents is immoral. However, I don't think that it'll be particularly effective, especially when the process begins later. It's simply too late by this point for the parents to be able to successfully uproot that part of their child's psyche. Then again, by the time they're older to experience sexual desire it may already be too late.
Once you reach a certain age it pretty much has to be entirely your own decision (with no one coercing you) for it to work.
In my opinion, for the highest success rate it'd go like this:

You decide that you're going to change. You go to see the Conversion Therapist. None of your family, friends, or coworkers know about it. Perhaps some drugs which lower libido are used and your every action becomes monitored by somebody who's part of the program. This is done in such a way that you are always acutely aware of this person's presence.
You are prohibited from masturbating and somehow this prohibition is enforced by the program.
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BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 10:35:02 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
Actually I would make a great conversion therapist.

Put them on some light drugs, strip them of their clothes, and put them in a dark room for hours cycling through gay porn of the opposite sex, e.g, guys watch lesbian porn.

Repeat treatment at least once a month.
Vox_Veritas
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10/28/2015 1:56:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Even if conversion therapy succeeds in suppressing homosexual desires, it'll probably do nothing towards making someone straight. They'd be asexual at best.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,105
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10/28/2015 6:15:04 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
It should definitely be outlawed, but there's almost no point to having this discussion in the forum.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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EndarkenedRationalist
Posts: 14,201
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10/28/2015 6:36:14 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 1:56:51 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Even if conversion therapy succeeds in suppressing homosexual desires, it'll probably do nothing towards making someone straight. They'd be asexual at best.

*celibate*

Asexual is a legitimate orientation.
BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 7:04:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Aversion therapy actually works pretty well. A lot of homos became disgusted with sex because people were intentionally trying to disgust them, so they became asexual.
bsh1
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10/28/2015 8:14:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 4:20:06 AM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 10/28/2015 1:44:36 AM, bsh1 wrote:
It should be banned as a forum of fraud and child abuse.

I think I may know where you are going with the fraud thing, but I have no idea what you are trying to say with child abuse.

Would you be opposed to psychiatrists using certain tactics to get children to come out as homosexuals?

I would support psychologists being supportive, and not psychologically (and sometimes physically) abusing kids for being gay. GCT more often than not harms patients more than helps.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
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10/28/2015 8:14:45 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 7:04:44 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
Aversion therapy actually works pretty well. A lot of homos became disgusted with sex because people were intentionally trying to disgust them, so they became asexual.

They didn't become asexual. They still have the attractions, they're just disgusted by them. The attractions are still there.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 9:18:33 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 8:14:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
They didn't become asexual. They still have the attractions, they're just disgusted by them. The attractions are still there.

So they are still homosexual despite being disgusted by homosexual sex? You are going to have to explain that one to me.
bsh1
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10/28/2015 9:21:00 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:18:33 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 10/28/2015 8:14:45 PM, bsh1 wrote:
They didn't become asexual. They still have the attractions, they're just disgusted by them. The attractions are still there.

So they are still homosexual despite being disgusted by homosexual sex? You are going to have to explain that one to me.

You sexuality has to do with your uncontrollable attractions. Guys in that situation are still only attracted to guys, they are just disgusted that they are, and so don't act on those feelings. It doesn't mean their attractions have disappeared or changed; merely, it means that they do everything they can to ignore, suppress, or publicly deny them.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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BlackFlags
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10/28/2015 9:23:22 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:21:00 PM, bsh1 wrote:
You sexuality has to do with your uncontrollable attractions. Guys in that situation are still only attracted to guys, they are just disgusted that they are, and so don't act on those feelings. It doesn't mean their attractions have disappeared or changed; merely, it means that they do everything they can to ignore, suppress, or publicly deny them.

Oh, okay, very sensible.
Insignifica
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10/28/2015 10:26:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
I supported the right to gay conversion therapy until I read about the sort of practices that are involved. They're absolutely asinine, not to mention psychologically harmful. That's unfortunate, because if it were effective, I would definitely support it being an option available to people; there are a variety of legitimate personal reasons why one might not wanna be homosexual. But as things stand, I do support keeping it outlawed.
1harderthanyouthink
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10/28/2015 10:36:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 9:23:22 PM, BlackFlags wrote:

This is a legitimate question: how old are you?
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

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pakicetus
Posts: 66
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10/28/2015 11:30:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
In regards to minors? Definitely.

Adults can subject themselves to the practice all they wish, as far as I care.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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10/29/2015 12:46:55 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
No it shouldn't be banned. Though I'd advise everyone to stay away from it. People should have a right to do stupid stuff, and perhaps we should regulate it enough so it's not overly harmful to minors, but other than that no
BlackFlags
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10/29/2015 2:47:06 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 12:46:55 AM, Wylted wrote:
No it shouldn't be banned. Though I'd advise everyone to stay away from it. People should have a right to do stupid stuff, and perhaps we should regulate it enough so it's not overly harmful to minors, but other than that no

I agreed with you up until you said there should be some regulation.
BlackFlags
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10/29/2015 2:49:32 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 10:36:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/28/2015 9:23:22 PM, BlackFlags wrote:

This is a legitimate question: how old are you?
Yeah, I do not like these kinds of questions. Ask esocial if you really want to stick your nose where it doesn't belong. She has some insight on my actual age, since my entire time on this site I had lied about it (either by claiming I was younger or older than I really was)
BlackFlags
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10/29/2015 2:51:00 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/28/2015 10:26:48 PM, Insignifica wrote:
I supported the right to gay conversion therapy until I read about the sort of practices that are involved. They're absolutely asinine, not to mention psychologically harmful. That's unfortunate, because if it were effective, I would definitely support it being an option available to people; there are a variety of legitimate personal reasons why one might not wanna be homosexual. But as things stand, I do support keeping it outlawed.

Glad you changed your anarchist status. It was quite apparent since you probably had never listened to a punk song in your life.
1harderthanyouthink
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10/29/2015 2:55:50 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 10/29/2015 2:49:32 AM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 10/28/2015 10:36:39 PM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 10/28/2015 9:23:22 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
This is a legitimate question: how old are you?
Yeah, I do not like these kinds of questions. Ask esocial if you really want to stick your nose where it doesn't belong. She has some insight on my actual age, since my entire time on this site I had lied about it (either by claiming I was younger or older than I really was)
I'm asking this seriously, just so you know. But ok.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

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