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Are "the police" racist? - hypothetical math

Khaos_Mage
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11/6/2015 12:43:51 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Is it fair to say that "the police" are racist just because there is disparity? This is not to say, in the past, this was not a fair criticism, nor is it saying ALL police are not racist. But, is it fair to label, and subsequently distrust, all police?

Assume the following regarding traffic stops:
Population is 13% black (1/8), and whites are 60% (3/5).
Each of 100 officers on duty issue 32 moving violations every day.
75% of moving violations are discretionary, while 25% are unavoidable (drunk driving via swerving, 30+ over the speed limit, accident, etc.).
Assuming no other factors, one would think that 19 tickets per cop would be issued to whites, while blacks would be issued only 4 ticket per day per cop (equal disparity).

If this is not in agreement, then say so now.

Now, let's assume 10% of the police force is racist against blacks. These cops cannot exercise their prejudice 25% of the time, but they can, and do, the other 75%. Thus, these cops will target ONLY blacks, and never give whites tickets (outside of the 25% - the times they MUST because it is too dangerous not to).
Thus, these officers are pulling over 25 blacks per day, and only six whites (I think I calculated for six, if not five, and my math is in another location).

Tally the number for the entire force, and you get 19% of traffic stops are blacks, and 58% are white. This comes down to blacks being 1.5x more likely to be pulled over than whites.

So, 10% of the force are racist, and the entire force is noticeably affected. I'd assume if 30% of the force were racist, then the number would be 2.5x more likely, which is about where we are at.

So, if 2/3 of the police are good and doing their job, why is the entire police force to be vilified and feared? Isn't this profiling by the citizenry? Aren't groups who protest racial profiling, and vilify police efforts when they focus on certain areas, which happen to be black, being hypocritical when they demonize the entire police force for the actions of the minority?

Now, I don't know if any of this is true, and maybe ALL the police are racist, and most just hide it well. But, I just wanted to explore the possibility of how much a few bad cops could affect the entire force, when using stats.
And, of course, if this was true, the police should be attacked for protecting these racist cops, but that doesn't mean all the cops are bad.

Assuming this is true, it is just more evidence of how Americans react (emotional) as opposed to think (logical) about things. You see the same thing when it comes to "stranger danger", when children are more likely to be molested by someone they know. And I blame those with influence for spreading the fear, instead of logic, and spreading blame and solutions that do nothing (or little), instead of creating insight.

The single biggest thing to do is expose the issue with the truth, and not spin, and have complete data. Huge holes do not help, and a solution to a problem that may not exist is just busy work. And no solution to a bigger problem doesn't truly address the problem.
My work here is, finally, done.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/8/2015 11:33:43 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
A lot of liberals see disparities and want to attack the problem at the end, where the disparities show up, instead of the beginning where the reason for the disparities form. It's the typical attack the symptoms instead of the source mentality that is also unfortunately prevalent in medicine as well.
Khaos_Mage
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11/8/2015 1:07:39 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/8/2015 11:33:43 AM, Wylted wrote:
A lot of liberals see disparities and want to attack the problem at the end, where the disparities show up, instead of the beginning where the reason for the disparities form. It's the typical attack the symptoms instead of the source mentality that is also unfortunately prevalent in medicine as well.

I get that, and it is annoying, and it seems like special pleading, when you attack police for policing higher problem areas, but it doesn't seem like they attack the business owner who won't higher those without a high school diploma or write well, which also has a disparate impact.

The purpose of this thread is more if the charge against the entire police force as racists, nationwide even, is logical or acceptable. Also, since it seems hypocritical to me, to assume and label the entire group of police based on the actions of a minority of them and act accordingly, but then be offended when a group (police), because of a minority of a group of citizens (race, neighborhood) results in labeling the entire group as a "risk" or "problem", reacts and changes their policing policies.
My work here is, finally, done.
j50wells
Posts: 345
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11/9/2015 4:45:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Well, we can only get to the bottom of the truth if you are willing to talk about truth. I am finding that left wing activists don't want to talk truth.
Firstly, proven fact, blacks are more violent. Get over it. It just is. I don't know why. Some people try to blame it on poverty, others blame it on their past. Still others say it's their biology. Whatever the truth is we are not sure, and because of the poisoning of truth in the universities and in the media by left wing radicals, we will never know the truth. I lived in South Dallas for three years. The blacks who live there are like animals. They kill, beat, and rob at will. At the same time I have lived in other poor neighborhoods where whites and Asians lived. The crime rates were much lower. I saw very few fights, and very little vandalism. Remember, these neighborhoods were just as poor as South Dallas. I even have black friends who fled South Dallas because of the crime and violence.
Sorry, dude, hate to be the one to tell you. Cops can tell you. Even black cops can tell you. Black men are violent. Is it their culture? Could be. Is it their biological evolution in the jungle that leads them to be violent? I don't know. Many would try to say it's the white man's fault for past sins against them. But crime in Africa, where we never enslaved them, is three times as high as anywhere else on the planet. Even poor nations in South America have lower crime rates.
What you want, in your liberal understanding, is for white people to give obedience to black whims. You want white people, who did nothing to black people (slavery was 160 years ago) to walk on glass and bow to black people. Black people will feel no better about themselves until they put their foot on our necks. Trust me, friend, any special rights or free money that you give to blacks will not be enough. They will only want more. They won't stop until they are on the top, and white folks are on the bottom. Are we starting to see the truth of the matter? Cultural integration is a lie. It will never happen. One race or culture will always want to be the head, and not the tail. So what if we completely even the playing field. Soon, the Muslim hordes, who believe their culture is the dominate one, will start to influence America.
But there is a way out of this. It's called Free Market Democracy. This ideology should be protected, always. Anyone who doesn't subscribe to it should be stopped. It's sad that blacks are embracing socialism, which is just a free handout to them. They would do much better by realizing that it is up to them, themselves, to work and provide for themselves and their families, and that it is not up to anyone else.
I left out why there are more traffic tickets for blacks. You have to remember that a cops' job is to prosecute crime. To get into their mind you have to move away from your insane left wing way of thinking. Cops instinctively know that much of the crimes within the large cities are committed by blacks. Problem is there isn't a way to track these criminals. The only way to really find out where they are and what they are doing is to pull people over and check to see who they are. In America you can't randomly pull people over, unless you are the military on a back road in Kansas, then you can pull people over at will and search their cars. But it used to be illegal. So the cops have to have a reason to pull someone over, and speeding is that reason. A cops time is valuable. He has to stop crime. If a white guy in an SUV drives by 8mph over the speed limit he's not going to pull him over. It's a waist of time because maybe 1 in 100 of these guys are criminals. But then a car load of 20 year old black guys drives by at 8 mph over the speed limit. Cop is going to pull these guys over because he knows that 1 in 10 of these kinds of cars are going to have wanted criminals in them. There, my friend, I just helped you out. Now you know the truth. And this won't stop, nor should it. It's not the cops fault. It the blacks want change then they need to change their culture, stop robbing, raping, and killing, and then the cops will leave them alone. Get it? Got it? Good.
Fly
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11/9/2015 5:14:59 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
The police are not decidedly more racist than society itself. Unfortunately, the caveat to that is that they are not decidedly less racist than society, either.

What flaws or biases there may be in our law enforcement practices is not the cause of our society's shortcomings; it is merely one of the effects.
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
--Religion Forum's hypocrite extraordinaire serving up lulz
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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11/10/2015 2:35:17 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/9/2015 5:14:59 PM, Fly wrote:
The police are not decidedly more racist than society itself. Unfortunately, the caveat to that is that they are not decidedly less racist than society, either.

What flaws or biases there may be in our law enforcement practices is not the cause of our society's shortcomings; it is merely one of the effects.

They're less likely to act on their racial biases than the general public. The probably more likely to voice them, though. They're a cynical and outspoken group by nature
Ore_Ele
Posts: 25,980
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11/11/2015 10:30:44 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/6/2015 12:45:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, in the above example, is it fair to label the entire police force racist?

I've argued this before. When people ask "how many black people have to be killed by cops before you realize that cops are racist?" I respond with "how many people have to be killed by black people before your realize blacks are violent?" The correct answer is "never" for both.

However, this is also under the assumption that Blacks and Whites are actually equally skilled and law abiding drivers. We already know that young vs old is a real difference (despite being "agist") and male vs female is a real difference (despite being "sexist"), so why would we not at least believe the possibility that there can be a difference by race?
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/12/2015 11:35:08 AM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/11/2015 10:30:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2015 12:45:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, in the above example, is it fair to label the entire police force racist?

I've argued this before. When people ask "how many black people have to be killed by cops before you realize that cops are racist?" I respond with "how many people have to be killed by black people before your realize blacks are violent?" The correct answer is "never" for both.

First, thank you for responding to what I actually wrote. You're the first and only in this thread.
Second, I'm glad you see the hypocrisy of this (assuming my math). I tire of hearing "fvck the police, and can you blame me" attitudes, when it is wholly unknown just how racist the police are. Are there racist cops? Yes, of course. However, I've known quite a few @sshole cops myself going on power trips, and I also believe that if I were a minority, I'd probably assume it was because I am X, and not just because the cop is a jerk. My math shows that 10% of the police force can have a huge impact on the police force's overall stats, so I find it hypocritical that people are so willing to damn all of the police for the actions of a few, just like they accuse the police of doing.


However, this is also under the assumption that Blacks and Whites are actually equally skilled and law abiding drivers. We already know that young vs old is a real difference (despite being "agist") and male vs female is a real difference (despite being "sexist"), so why would we not at least believe the possibility that there can be a difference by race?

Not only that, but habits as well. I'd assume enforcement is more often done at night, so how do night crowds breakdown demographically, and, of course, by population?
My work here is, finally, done.
Ore_Ele
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11/12/2015 3:34:28 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 11:35:08 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2015 10:30:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2015 12:45:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, in the above example, is it fair to label the entire police force racist?

I've argued this before. When people ask "how many black people have to be killed by cops before you realize that cops are racist?" I respond with "how many people have to be killed by black people before your realize blacks are violent?" The correct answer is "never" for both.

First, thank you for responding to what I actually wrote. You're the first and only in this thread.
Second, I'm glad you see the hypocrisy of this (assuming my math). I tire of hearing "fvck the police, and can you blame me" attitudes, when it is wholly unknown just how racist the police are. Are there racist cops? Yes, of course. However, I've known quite a few @sshole cops myself going on power trips, and I also believe that if I were a minority, I'd probably assume it was because I am X, and not just because the cop is a jerk. My math shows that 10% of the police force can have a huge impact on the police force's overall stats, so I find it hypocritical that people are so willing to damn all of the police for the actions of a few, just like they accuse the police of doing.


However, this is also under the assumption that Blacks and Whites are actually equally skilled and law abiding drivers. We already know that young vs old is a real difference (despite being "agist") and male vs female is a real difference (despite being "sexist"), so why would we not at least believe the possibility that there can be a difference by race?

Not only that, but habits as well. I'd assume enforcement is more often done at night, so how do night crowds breakdown demographically, and, of course, by population?

One thing I'd also point out that I thought of this morning is what does "the police department is racist" mean? Or what should it mean? If someone says that Walmart is racist, they are not talking about every single employee. If someone says that Hobby Lobby discriminates against women, they are not really saying that every employee that works there does, but rather the upper management that sets the rules.

When people say "the police department is racist" they should be implying that the head of police and people that set policy are racist (though for some reason, many people still mean that all, or most, police are racist).

In your example, if you have several officers making 40 citations a week, and all but one of them are doing 5 blacks and 35 whites, then 1 is doing 8 whites and 32 blacks, I think we can say that the people in charge of the police department are racist (or at least enabling racism) if they do nothing and allow that to continue.

A hard thing with that, is that if all 32 of those blacks committed a crime, how do you tell the officer that they are wrong? How do you tell them that they need to let black criminals go just so their numbers are politically correct? The only way to do this would be to have all police heavily recorded (even when they are just sitting in their cars with a speed gun) so that we could catch and verify that they are, in fact, letting white criminals go just for the purpose of hitting up black criminals.

Like if we see them let 10 people driving Lexes (that's a white person car, right?) who are going 20 over the speed limit go on by, but hit that WRX with tinted windows (that's for blacks only, right?) going 18 over the speed limit. There would be the solid evidence and solid ground for action.
"Wanting Red Rhino Pill to have gender"
popculturepooka
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11/12/2015 3:34:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 11:35:08 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2015 10:30:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2015 12:45:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, in the above example, is it fair to label the entire police force racist?

I've argued this before. When people ask "how many black people have to be killed by cops before you realize that cops are racist?" I respond with "how many people have to be killed by black people before your realize blacks are violent?" The correct answer is "never" for both.

First, thank you for responding to what I actually wrote. You're the first and only in this thread.
Second, I'm glad you see the hypocrisy of this (assuming my math). I tire of hearing "fvck the police, and can you blame me" attitudes, when it is wholly unknown just how racist the police are. Are there racist cops? Yes, of course. However, I've known quite a few @sshole cops myself going on power trips, and I also believe that if I were a minority, I'd probably assume it was because I am X, and not just because the cop is a jerk.

It's entirely possible that a cop is a jerk to everybody (including white people) but also is more of a jerk to minorities because they're racist. Or that they are equally a jerk to everyone, but they are a jerk to different groups of people for different reasons.

My math shows that 10% of the police force can have a huge impact on the police force's overall stats, so I find it hypocritical that people are so willing to damn all of the police for the actions of a few, just like they accuse the police of doing.


............

We are talking about a group of people who had no control over their physical/genetic characteristics who necessarily have far more variance within their group versus people with chosen a profession and you honestly don't see the difference?

So let's say "10%" are actively racist (and you're mistake of thinking only active "I'm going to pull over that guy because he's supiscious because he's black"). What about the others in the department who know about the "10%" but won't say anything because their buddies with them and that'd be breaking the blue wall of science? What about those who know that it's wrong, but they're afraid to lose their job by speaking up about it? What about the others who are (culpably) ignorant? What about the higher ups who actively enable this sort of stuff/ What about those who knows it's a problem, but don't think it's a big enough problem to warrant complaining about it?

So, yep. I'm go right on distrusting the police and minimizing contact with them as much as possible. Because they historically and presently have been messing with people who look like me for a 100+ years. And before anyone tries to take that out of context it doesn't follow from that statement that they don't mess with other people who don't look like me at all.


However, this is also under the assumption that Blacks and Whites are actually equally skilled and law abiding drivers. We already know that young vs old is a real difference (despite being "agist") and male vs female is a real difference (despite being "sexist"), so why would we not at least believe the possibility that there can be a difference by race?

Not only that, but habits as well. I'd assume enforcement is more often done at night, so how do night crowds breakdown demographically, and, of course, by population?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Khaos_Mage
Posts: 23,214
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11/13/2015 1:12:21 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 3:34:34 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/12/2015 11:35:08 AM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
At 11/11/2015 10:30:44 PM, Ore_Ele wrote:
At 11/6/2015 12:45:55 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:
So, in the above example, is it fair to label the entire police force racist?

I've argued this before. When people ask "how many black people have to be killed by cops before you realize that cops are racist?" I respond with "how many people have to be killed by black people before your realize blacks are violent?" The correct answer is "never" for both.

First, thank you for responding to what I actually wrote. You're the first and only in this thread.
Second, I'm glad you see the hypocrisy of this (assuming my math). I tire of hearing "fvck the police, and can you blame me" attitudes, when it is wholly unknown just how racist the police are. Are there racist cops? Yes, of course. However, I've known quite a few @sshole cops myself going on power trips, and I also believe that if I were a minority, I'd probably assume it was because I am X, and not just because the cop is a jerk.

It's entirely possible that a cop is a jerk to everybody (including white people) but also is more of a jerk to minorities because they're racist. Or that they are equally a jerk to everyone, but they are a jerk to different groups of people for different reasons.

What is your point here?
What does it matter if a jerk cop going on a power trip and being unprofessional when dealing with a white male is also a unprofessional when dealing with a white female, because he is a misogynist? What is the value of splitting the issue?

My math shows that 10% of the police force can have a huge impact on the police force's overall stats, so I find it hypocritical that people are so willing to damn all of the police for the actions of a few, just like they accuse the police of doing.


............

We are talking about a group of people who had no control over their physical/genetic characteristics who necessarily have far more variance within their group versus people with chosen a profession and you honestly don't see the difference?
Far more variance, huh?
You mean like how young black men are more disparately affected by police than older ones? Or how women appear to have no racial bias applied to them?
Or how some blacks don't have these issues with police( or racism in general)?

There is, of course, variance among Black Americans. I have always found it ironic that SJWs are the ones who seem to always lump them together into one group. For example, assuming that an individual incident is likely to occur to any black person, because, clearly, every black person would act the same.


So let's say "10%" are actively racist (and you're mistake of thinking only active "I'm going to pull over that guy because he's supiscious because he's black"). What about the others in the department who know about the "10%" but won't say anything because their buddies with them and that'd be breaking the blue wall of science? What about those who know that it's wrong, but they're afraid to lose their job by speaking up about it? What about the others who are (culpably) ignorant? What about the higher ups who actively enable this sort of stuff/ What about those who knows it's a problem, but don't think it's a big enough problem to warrant complaining about it?

Remember the when I said people aren't responding to what I write? I've already mentioned this in the OP....

These are very different things. Should you be mad at the police force for allowing this behavior? Of course. However, that is not my question, is it? My question is: should you think that every cop is racist? Should you fear for your life, if most cops are not going to harm you? Do you think think that those cops that stay silent are going to be racist against you when they pull you over?

Let's use an example of a classroom bully. There are 20 people in the class, and the bully relentlessly attacks one person. Everyone else stays silent for whatever reason, except that they believe the victim deserves it. Is it fair to say that all of the students are bullies? Is it fair to assume, if the bully is absent, that the victim will be bullied?
It is one thing to be upset at the class for not standing up, but it is quite another to assume that every single student in the class is going to actively bully.

So, yep. I'm go right on distrusting the police and minimizing contact with them as much as possible. Because they historically and presently have been messing with people who look like me for a 100+ years. And before anyone tries to take that out of context it doesn't follow from that statement that they don't mess with other people who don't look like me at all.

See, you are proving my point.
Why should you distrust/fear ALL of the police, if only a minority are problematic? Isn't this just as profiling as you claim they are doing to you? Even the black panthers acknowledge there are good cops and bad ones.
My work here is, finally, done.
popculturepooka
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11/18/2015 5:27:37 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/13/2015 1:12:21 PM, Khaos_Mage wrote:

What is your point here?

That being a jerk to white people isn't mutually exclusive from being a racist as you seem to imply.

What does it matter if a jerk cop going on a power trip and being unprofessional when dealing with a white male is also a unprofessional when dealing with a white female, because he is a misogynist? What is the value of splitting the issue?


Because we are talking about racism here...or misogynism in that case. It'd be ridiculous to say the charge of misogyny is misplaced because the cop is a jerk to white males too.

Far more variance, huh?
You mean like how young black men are more disparately affected by police than older ones?

You weren't talking about specifically about young black men. And you still haven't addressed my point. Race isn't equivalent to a chosen profession.

;Or how women appear to have no racial bias applied to them?

By police? By...society? That's blatantly false in either case.

Or how some blacks don't have these issues with police( or racism in general)?


I've met some who have never had problems with the police. Doesn't change my point. I've never met one in a Western country who hasn't had a problem with racism (even the conservatives you guys like to bring up like Sowell, Thomas, etc).* What they disagree on is how pervasive and damaging it is and whether it's worth getting worked up about. I have actually looked into these sort of things.

*And I'm only saying "you guys" to illustrate a point mr. anti-SJW, lololo

There is, of course, variance among Black Americans. I have always found it ironic that SJWs are the ones who seem to always lump them together into one group. For example, assuming that an individual incident is likely to occur to any black person, because, clearly, every black person would act the same.


Notes irony. Brings up "SJWS" by lumping together in one group. Okay.

There's no such thing as a SJW btw.

So let's say "10%" are actively racist (and you're mistake of thinking only active "I'm going to pull over that guy because he's supiscious because he's black"). What about the others in the department who know about the "10%" but won't say anything because their buddies with them and that'd be breaking the blue wall of science? What about those who know that it's wrong, but they're afraid to lose their job by speaking up about it? What about the others who are (culpably) ignorant? What about the higher ups who actively enable this sort of stuff/ What about those who knows it's a problem, but don't think it's a big enough problem to warrant complaining about it?

Remember the when I said people aren't responding to what I write? I've already mentioned this in the OP....

These are very different things. Should you be mad at the police force for allowing this behavior? Of course. However, that is not my question, is it? My question is: should you think that every cop is racist?

I don't. I'm not even sure how you even got that from what I wrote.

As James Baldwin said "I I don"t know what most white people in this country feel, but I can only include what they feel from the state of their institutions.

I don"t know if white Christians hate Negroes or not, but I know that we have a Christian church which is white and a Christian church which is black. I know as Malcolm X once put it: "The most segregated hour in American life is high noon on Sunday." That says a great deal for me about a Christian nation. It means that I can"t afford to trust most white Christians, and I certainly cannot trust the Christian church.

I don"t know whether the labor unions and their bosses really hate me; that doesn"t matter. But I know I"m NOT in their unions.

I don"t know if the real estate lobby has anything against black people, but I know the real estate lobbies keep me in the ghetto.

I don"t know if the Board of Education hates black people, but I know the textbooks they give my children to read and the schools that we have to go to.

Now, THIS is the evidence.

You want me to make an act of faith"risking myself, my wife, my woman, my sister, my children"on some idealism, which you assure me exists in America, which I have never seen!"

" James Baldwin

I'm sure you would told Baldwin back in the 60's that he was being just as bad and prejudiced as his oppressors, huh?

It doesn't really matter all that much if all police aren't out there being "actively" racist if the state of the institution is the way it is. It seems like time and again you are only focused on personal racism. The only I really talk about is the institutional kind. I don't really care if you hate me because I'm black. I care when you steer me into predatory lending because of that. I care when you don't actually hate me, but you steer me into predatory lending or let others do so, just because that's the way things are done and you don't want to rock the boat.

Should you fear for your life, if most cops are not going to harm you?

Yes.

Do you think think that those cops that stay silent are going to be racist against you when they pull you over?

Let's use an example of a classroom bully. There are 20 people in the class, and the bully relentlessly attacks one person. Everyone else stays silent for whatever reason, except that they believe the victim deserves it. Is it fair to say that all of the students are bullies? Is it fair to assume, if the bully is absent, that the victim will be bullied?

No, but it's moral cowardice. There's still culpability there.

It is one thing to be upset at the class for not standing up, but it is quite another to assume that every single student in the class is going to actively bully.


In that case, silence = complicity. Your analogy isn't even comparable to the point I was getting at. I'm not talking about just "actively" racist cops.

So, yep. I'm go right on distrusting the police and minimizing contact with them as much as possible. Because they historically and presently have been messing with people who look like me for a 100+ years. And before anyone tries to take that out of context it doesn't follow from that statement that they don't mess with other people who don't look like me at all.

See, you are proving my point.
Why should you distrust/fear ALL of the police, if only a minority are problematic? Isn't this just as profiling as you claim they are doing to you? Even the black panthers acknowledge there are good cops and bad ones.

I never said there aren't good cops and bad cops. I actually do know some good cops. But the fact is Good cops can still be complicit in the system if they aren't speaking out about it. Most or enough aren't, otherwise things would've changed a long time ago.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!