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Climate Change Refugees

bsh1
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11/12/2015 7:24:57 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
Read the article: http://www.bbc.com...

Do you think that major polluters have a duty to provide for these refugees in some way? Should major polluters offer asylum, and is this an asylum-worthy issue?
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BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/12/2015 10:16:03 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 7:24:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Read the article: http://www.bbc.com...

Do you think that major polluters have a duty to provide for these refugees in some way? Should major polluters offer asylum, and is this an asylum-worthy issue?

Desertification is not a climate change issue. It is something totally different.

It is in regards to overgrazing and bad farming practices on already poor soil. The Sahara desert continues to be pushed further and further by the winds, and it completely destroys farming land.

Climate change has no immediate effect on the problem of desertification. If you wanted to make this thread, I would of showed how in various island nations throughout the world farmers are losing their lands to the sea.
bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:18:23 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:16:03 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:24:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Read the article: http://www.bbc.com...

Do you think that major polluters have a duty to provide for these refugees in some way? Should major polluters offer asylum, and is this an asylum-worthy issue?

Desertification is not a climate change issue. It is something totally different.

You cannot, definitively, make that statement: http://www.greenfacts.org... Moreover, we could talk about refugees of other climate issues, like rising sea levels, which certainly ARE connected to global climate change.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:24:15 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:23:38 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:24:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Should major polluters offer asylum
Major polluter - I wonder who that happens to be... :)

China.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/12/2015 10:24:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:18:23 PM, bsh1 wrote:
You cannot, definitively, make that statement: http://www.greenfacts.org...

I read that link and they pretty much said the scientists didn't have enough information.

Sounds about right, given that there is absolutely no evidence. If any existed, it would be very bare too.

In the case of desertification, the problem primarily stems from the people who lossed their land to the desert, by their own neglect. Not some obscure connection to industrial pollution.
bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:26:48 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:24:42 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/12/2015 10:18:23 PM, bsh1 wrote:
You cannot, definitively, make that statement: http://www.greenfacts.org...

I read that link and they pretty much said the scientists didn't have enough information.

Correct, which is why I said that "you cannot, definitively," make they claim you made.

And, as I said, we can talk about other climate refugees an apply the relevant questions.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/12/2015 10:28:34 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:24:15 PM, bsh1 wrote:
China.
I was hinting at America as a major polluter. It's also considerably worse per capita. :)
bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:28:40 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:23:38 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/12/2015 7:24:57 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Should major polluters offer asylum
Major polluter - I wonder who that happens to be... :)

Or Australia, if you go by emissions per capita.
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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Mirza
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11/12/2015 10:30:42 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:28:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Or Australia, if you go by emissions per capita.
Sure, but America ranks among the top nevertheless. Considering its population size and emission per capita, it has a horrible record for now. That doesn't excuse smaller countries from regulating their pollution, but when your emissions per capita as so much more consequential, you carry a bigger responsibility.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/12/2015 10:31:11 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:30:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/12/2015 10:28:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Or Australia, if you go by emissions per capita.
Sure, but America ranks among the top nevertheless. Considering its population size and emission per capita, it has a horrible record for now. That doesn't excuse smaller countries from regulating their pollution, but when your emissions per capita as so much more consequential, you carry a bigger responsibility.
are*
bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:31:38 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:28:34 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/12/2015 10:24:15 PM, bsh1 wrote:
China.
I was hinting at America as a major polluter. It's also considerably worse per capita. :)

Well, Australia is the worse per capita. In pure emissions, the US and EU aren't too far apart. Germany, Russia, and the US also aren't too far apart on a per capita basis. There are also 4 European countries in the top 10 worst countries in CO2 emissions per capita.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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bsh1
Posts: 27,503
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11/12/2015 10:32:54 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:30:42 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/12/2015 10:28:40 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Or Australia, if you go by emissions per capita.
Sure, but America ranks among the top nevertheless.

So does Europe. The EU ranks #3 in pure emissions and 4 European Countries are in the top 10 worst emitters.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/12/2015 10:34:06 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:26:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Correct, which is why I said that "you cannot, definitively," make they claim you made.
Alright, but I just think it is suprising how you jumped the gun. Your entire OP resides on the idea that industrial pollution is the primary reason these people are losing their lands, and that simply isn't true.

And, as I said, we can talk about other climate refugees an apply the relevant questions.

I believe states do not have a claim to land. A refugee has my full support in moving wherever he wants in order to establish a living. The claims of the state to the lands prosperity is very discouraging for the future of the world as a whole. It is an unofficial system that often acts similar to serfdom.

But... to expect refugee is naive, and you definitely are not entitled to it just because your circumstances are bad.
bsh1
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11/12/2015 10:36:31 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:34:06 PM, BlackFlags wrote:
At 11/12/2015 10:26:48 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Correct, which is why I said that "you cannot, definitively," make they claim you made.
Alright, but I just think it is suprising how you jumped the gun. Your entire OP resides on the idea that industrial pollution is the primary reason these people are losing their lands, and that simply isn't true.

Not really. I wanted to use that example to illustrate a broader principle. But if you don't think that example works, we can use another example to talk about the exact same thing. My OP therefore rests on the idea that when climate change is responsible for refugees, the main drivers of climate change should take responsibility for the refugees, including the US. We can, again, using the rising sea level example to talk about this.
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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BlackFlags
Posts: 904
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11/12/2015 10:39:36 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:36:31 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Not really. I wanted to use that example to illustrate a broader principle.

Well you made a topic about climate change, used desertification as the topic starter, and asked whether the major polluters owe these people refugee. The answer is quite obviously no, because the major polluters can't be proven to play any immediate part in the desertification process.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/12/2015 10:44:29 PM
Posted: 1 year ago
At 11/12/2015 10:31:38 PM, bsh1 wrote:
Well, Australia is the worse per capita. In pure emissions, the US and EU aren't too far apart. Germany, Russia, and the US also aren't too far apart on a per capita basis. There are also 4 European countries in the top 10 worst countries in CO2 emissions per capita.
Let's break it down like this: If "major polluters" carry more responsibility, and are obliged to import climate change refugees, then this makes China - if we go by total emissions - even more responsible than America, even though it has a considerably lower per capita emission rate. Does the fact that it has a larger population make it more responsible for accelerating the climate process? What if it had a much larger population, and much lower per capita emission rate, but even higher total? Does it then hold any responsibility at all just because it is necessitated to pollute due to the high population?

Obviously we can't just go by total, nor by emissions per capita. If Luxembourg emits more per capita than anyone else, how are they obliged to take in refugees, for instance, when their emissions are negligible in the overall climate change process?