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Oppression

lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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10/10/2010 2:41:58 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Governmental oppression. Does that mean you can be oppressed by criminals? Are you forced to buy certain things due to criminals? Are we forced to follow a certain way of life due to criminals?
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Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 2:46:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
forced to purchase things? such as?
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 2:50:10 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:41:58 PM, lovelife wrote:
Governmental oppression. Does that mean you can be oppressed by criminals?
Yes. Murder, theft, etc.

Are you forced to buy certain things due to criminals?
Yes, unless you want to face the consequences of not buying them.

Are we forced to follow a certain way of life due to criminals?
Yes.
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 2:50:46 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:49:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:46:57 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
forced to purchase things? such as?
An alarm system, guns...

We aren't forced to buy anything due to criminals. It may be in your best interest to do so though.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
LaissezFaire
Posts: 2,050
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10/10/2010 2:52:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:41:58 PM, lovelife wrote:
Governmental oppression. Does that mean you can be oppressed by criminals? Are you forced to buy certain things due to criminals? Are we forced to follow a certain way of life due to criminals?

There's no real difference between government oppression and ordinary criminal oppression. Both groups do the exact same sort of things, government just does those things on a much larger scale.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 2:53:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:50:46 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
We aren't forced to buy anything due to criminals. It may be in your best interest to do so though.
Why not? It is the same as with the government enforcing laws.

G: Follow them or be punished.
C: Buy an alarm clock or have a visit of a burglar.
lovelife
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10/10/2010 2:53:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:50:46 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:49:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:46:57 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
forced to purchase things? such as?
An alarm system, guns...

We aren't forced to buy anything due to criminals. It may be in your best interest to do so though.

And by not doing so you are not breaking any laws, and ones that break laws, even if you do not buy such things, still must face the consequences of their actions, and by not doing such you do not forfeit any rights that the law gives you.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 2:56:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:53:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:50:46 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
We aren't forced to buy anything due to criminals. It may be in your best interest to do so though.
Why not? It is the same as with the government enforcing laws.

G: Follow them or be punished.
C: Buy an alarm clock or have a visit of a burglar.

There is a difference. We aren't legally required to buy anything to protect ourselves. Of course we may face a danger if we don't, but in no way are we forced
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 2:58:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:53:19 PM, lovelife wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:50:46 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:49:02 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:46:57 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
forced to purchase things? such as?
An alarm system, guns...

We aren't forced to buy anything due to criminals. It may be in your best interest to do so though.

And by not doing so you are not breaking any laws, and ones that break laws, even if you do not buy such things, still must face the consequences of their actions, and by not doing such you do not forfeit any rights that the law gives you.

The last bit of that is worded oddly. Care to elaborate?
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 3:01:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 2:56:07 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
There is a difference. We aren't legally required to buy anything to protect ourselves. Of course we may face a danger if we don't, but in no way are we forced
That does not explain why the difference between government oppression and criminal oppression is important. Just because you are not "legally" required to buy an alarm clock does not mean that you are not oppressed for having to do so due to criminals.
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 3:06:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:01:04 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 2:56:07 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
There is a difference. We aren't legally required to buy anything to protect ourselves. Of course we may face a danger if we don't, but in no way are we forced
That does not explain why the difference between government oppression and criminal oppression is important. Just because you are not "legally" required to buy an alarm clock does not mean that you are not oppressed for having to do so due to criminals.

The whole point I was making is that we aren't forced by criminals. I understand fully what you are saying, and I agree to a point, but I still don't see how we are "forced" to do anything. Just because there may be negative consequence, it doesn't mean we're forced to buy for self-protection. It is certainly suggested, though.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 3:09:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At no point was I attempting to differentiate between criminal and government oppression. I somewhat agree with LaissezFaire's post.

I'm simply focusing on the word "forced"
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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10/10/2010 3:22:08 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The goal of the force of the criminal is not to get you to buy an alarm.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 3:23:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:06:19 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
The whole point I was making is that we aren't forced by criminals.
We are forced to choose between higher risks of being e.g. robbed or lower risks of that through more security.

I understand fully what you are saying, and I agree to a point, but I still don't see how we are "forced" to do anything. Just because there may be negative consequence, it doesn't mean we're forced to buy for self-protection. It is certainly suggested, though.
"Forced" does not only refer to something ultimate.
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 3:34:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:23:29 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:06:19 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
The whole point I was making is that we aren't forced by criminals.
We are forced to choose between higher risks of being e.g. robbed or lower risks of that through more security.
Considering those are the only two options possible (having security or not), I say fair enough.

I understand fully what you are saying, and I agree to a point, but I still don't see how we are "forced" to do anything. Just because there may be negative consequence, it doesn't mean we're forced to buy for self-protection. It is certainly suggested, though.
"Forced" does not only refer to something ultimate.

How would you define it? Forced: enforced or compulsory or subjected to force. Thats how I see it. Even when its defined as "required by circumstance" I would still say we aren't required. It is ultimately our decision.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Mirza
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10/10/2010 3:38:31 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:34:39 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
Considering those are the only two options possible (having security or not), I say fair enough.
Good.

How would you define it? Forced: enforced or compulsory or subjected to force. Thats how I see it. Even when its defined as "required by circumstance" I would still say we aren't required. It is ultimately our decision.
If there were no criminals, we would not even have a need of buying an alarm clock. So technically, we are forced to do it if we want to be more secured against criminals.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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10/10/2010 3:42:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:38:31 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:34:39 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
Considering those are the only two options possible (having security or not), I say fair enough.
Good.

How would you define it? Forced: enforced or compulsory or subjected to force. Thats how I see it. Even when its defined as "required by circumstance" I would still say we aren't required. It is ultimately our decision.
If there were no criminals, we would not even have a need of buying an alarm clock. So technically, we are forced to do it if we want to be more secured against criminals.

Too bad they do nothing but piss the criminals off worse and get them to beat the sh1t out of the people inside and even rape.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 3:43:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:42:21 PM, lovelife wrote:
Too bad they do nothing but piss the criminals off worse and get them to beat the sh1t out of the people inside and even rape.
Not true.
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 3:45:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:38:31 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:34:39 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
Considering those are the only two options possible (having security or not), I say fair enough.
Good.

How would you define it? Forced: enforced or compulsory or subjected to force. Thats how I see it. Even when its defined as "required by circumstance" I would still say we aren't required. It is ultimately our decision.
If there were no criminals, we would not even have a need of buying an alarm clock. So technically, we are forced to do it if we want to be more secured against criminals.

^yes

if we want to be. Meaning it would be in our best interest, but we aren't forced to buy alarms.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 3:46:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:45:29 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
^yes

if we want to be. Meaning it would be in our best interest, but we aren't forced to buy alarms.
We are forced to if we wish to feel safe...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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10/10/2010 3:51:15 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:46:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:45:29 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
^yes

if we want to be. Meaning it would be in our best interest, but we aren't forced to buy alarms.
We are forced to if we wish to feel safe...

I feel more in danger with locks and such.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Sobriquet
Posts: 390
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10/10/2010 3:53:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:46:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:45:29 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
^yes

if we want to be. Meaning it would be in our best interest, but we aren't forced to buy alarms.
We are forced to if we wish to feel safe...

thats exactly my point. If we wish to feel safe.

The existence of criminals doesn't create an absolute need for security. If you want to concern yourself with home safety, then you will likely get some sort of security (though a lot of homes just have locks on the doors)

Well, I think I'm done with this semantics battle for now. I have to grab some lunch with my roommates. When I come back I'll either continue the discussion here, or post on your wall.
"Bullsh!t is unavoidable whenever circumstance require someone to talk without knowing what he is talking about."
— Harry G. Frankfurt
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 3:58:03 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:53:43 PM, Sobriquet wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:46:59 PM, Mirza wrote:
thats exactly my point. If we wish to feel safe.

The existence of criminals doesn't create an absolute need for security. If you want to concern yourself with home safety, then you will likely get some sort of security (though a lot of homes just have locks on the doors)
The same applies to the government: we obey laws if we wish to remain unpunished.

Well, I think I'm done with this semantics battle for now. I have to grab some lunch with my roommates. When I come back I'll either continue the discussion here, or post on your wall.
OK, enjoy the food.
Kangetsu
Posts: 24
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10/10/2010 3:58:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I want to put a sign up in my front yard stating 'Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will get the dogs sicked on them. Have a nice day.'
To show the truth and truth only, to live by it and to die by it.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 4:00:30 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 3:58:30 PM, Kangetsu wrote:
I want to put a sign up in my front yard stating 'Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will get the dogs sicked on them. Have a nice day.'
Be careful what you wish for; it might come true.
Kangetsu
Posts: 24
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10/10/2010 4:10:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
: At 10/10/2010 4:00:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:58:30 PM, Kangetsu wrote:
I want to put a sign up in my front yard stating 'Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will get the dogs sicked on them. Have a nice day.'
Be careful what you wish for; it might come true.


I didn't wish for anything.
To show the truth and truth only, to live by it and to die by it.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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10/10/2010 4:12:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 10/10/2010 4:10:37 PM, Kangetsu wrote:
: At 10/10/2010 4:00:30 PM, Mirza wrote:
At 10/10/2010 3:58:30 PM, Kangetsu wrote:
I want to put a sign up in my front yard stating 'Trespassers will be shot. Survivors will get the dogs sicked on them. Have a nice day.'
Be careful what you wish for; it might come true.


I didn't wish for anything.
It was a joke.