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The system controls you

Wylted
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12/21/2015 10:57:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
By the system, I mean the one that has sprung up as a result of the industrial revolution and slowly expands as we speak.

Prior to civilization there generally existed ample leisure time, considerable gender autonomy and equality, a non-destructive approach to the natural world, the absence of organized violence, no mediating or formal institutions, and strong health and robusticity.

Civilization inaugurated warfare, the subjugation of women, population growth, drudge work, concepts of property, entrenched hierarchies, and virtually every known disease, to name a few of its devastating derivatives.

Imagine a society that subjects people to conditions that make them terribly unhappy, then gives them the drugs to take away their unhappiness. Science fiction? It is already happening to some extent in our own society. It is well known that the rate of clinical depression had been greatly increasing in recent decades. We believe that this is due to disruption of the power process.

The system does not and cannot exist to satisfy human needs. Instead, it is human behavior that has to be modified to fit the needs of the system. This has nothing to do with the political or social ideology that may pretend to guide the technological system. It is the fault of technology, because the system is guided not by ideology but by technical necessity.

Modern man is strapped down by a network of rules and regulations" Most of these regulations cannot be disposed with, because they are necessary for the functioning of industrial society. When one does not have adequate opportunity to go throughout the power process the consequences are "boredom, demoralization, low self-esteem, inferiority feelings, defeatism, depression, anxiety, guilt, frustration, hostility, spouse or child abuse, insatiable hedonism, abnormal sexual behavior, sleep disorders, eating disorders, etc. [The rules of industrial society] have made life unfulfilling, have subjected human beings to indignities, have led to widespread psychological suffering. By "feelings of inferiority" we mean not only inferiority feelings in the strictest sense but a whole spectrum of related traits: low self-esteem, feelings of powerlessness, depressive tendencies, defeatism, guilt, self-hatred, etc.

The entertainment industry serves as an important psychological tool of the system, possibly even when it is dishing out large amounts of sex and violence. Entertainment provides modern man with an essential means of escape. While absorbed in television, videos, etc., he can forget stress, anxiety, frustration, dissatisfaction.

The entertainment industry serves as an important psychological tool of the system, possibly even when it is dishing out large amounts of sex and violence. Entertainment provides modern man with an essential means of escape. While absorbed in television, videos, etc., he can forget stress, anxiety, frustration, dissatisfaction.

The system HAS TO regulate human behavior closely in order to function. At work, people have to do what they are told to do, otherwise production would be thrown into chaos. Bureaucracies HAVE TO be run according to rigid rules. To allow any substantial personal discretion to lower-level bureaucrats would disrupt the system and lead to charges of unfairness due to differences in the way individual bureaucrats exercised their discretion. It is true that some restrictions on our freedom could be eliminated, but GENERALLY SPEAKING the regulation of our lives by large organizations is necessary for the functioning of industrial-technological society. The result is a sense of powerlessness on the part of the average person.

It is not possible to make a LASTING compromise between technology and freedom, because technology is by far the more powerful social force and continually encroaches on freedom through REPEATED compromises. Another reason why technology is such a powerful social force is that, within the context of a given society, technological progress marches in only one direction; it can never be reversed. Once a technical innovation has been introduced, people usually become dependent on it, unless it is replaced by some still more advanced innovation. Not only do people become dependent as individuals on a new item of technology, but, even more, the system as a whole becomes dependent on it.

But we are suggesting neither that the human race would voluntarily turn power over to the machines nor that the machines would willfully seize power. What we do suggest is that the human race might easily permit itself to drift into a position of such dependence on the machines that it would have no practical choice but to accept all of the machines decisions. As society and the problems that face it become more and more complex and machines become more and more intelligent, people will let machines make more of their decision for them, simply because machine-made decisions will bring better result than man-made ones. Eventually a stage may be reached at which the decisions necessary to keep the system running will be so complex that human beings will be incapable of making them intelligently. At that stage the machines will be in effective control. People won"t be able to just turn the machines off, because they will be so dependent on them that turning them off would amount to suicide. .. Technology will eventually acquire something approaching complete control over human behavior.

Will public resistance prevent the introduction of technological control of human behavior? It certainly would if an attempt were made to introduce such control all at once. But since technological control will be introduced through a long sequence of small advances, there will be no rational and effective public resistance.

modern technology is a unified system in which all parts are dependent on one another. You can"t get rid of the "bad" parts of technology and retain only the "good" parts. You need to bring the whole thing down.

Until the industrial system has been thoroughly wrecked, the destruction of that system must be the revolutionaries" ONLY goal. Other goals would distract attention and energy from the main goal. More importantly, if the revolutionaries permit themselves to have any other goal than the destruction of technology, they will be tempted to use technology as a tool for reaching that other goal. If they give in to that temptation, they will fall right back into the technological trap, because modern technology is a unified, tightly organized system, so that, in order to retain SOME technology, one finds oneself obliged to retain MOST technology, hence one ends up sacrificing only token amounts of technology.

Success can be hoped for only by fighting the technological system as a whole; but that is revolution not reform. "While the industrial system is sick we must destroy it. If we compromise with it and let it recover from its sickness, it will eventually wipe out all of our freedom.
Wylted
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12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.
Greyparrot
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12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.
Wylted
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12/21/2015 11:24:07 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.

It does prohibit a happy life, who wouldn't be happier hunting for 3 hours a day for food and having 21 hours of leisure?
Greyparrot
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12/21/2015 11:26:37 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:24:07 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.

It does prohibit a happy life, who wouldn't be happier hunting for 3 hours a day for food and having 21 hours of leisure?

Sloth can be incredibly painful.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/21/2015 11:30:03 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:26:37 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:24:07 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.

It does prohibit a happy life, who wouldn't be happier hunting for 3 hours a day for food and having 21 hours of leisure?

Sloth can be incredibly painful.


Well I'll take living in a society with that much leisure time and absolutely no rape laws Any time
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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12/22/2015 1:28:24 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/21/2015 11:24:07 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.

It does prohibit a happy life, who wouldn't be happier hunting for 3 hours a day for food and having 21 hours of leisure?

The problem is that the internet is so much better than Uggh's drawing on the cave wall...
Juan_Pablo
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12/22/2015 1:56:30 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
So what is it that you propose, Wylted: Returning to a pre-Industrial Revolution lifestyle? Is that even possible?

You might be lucky just to get a few hundred individuals to follow you. I agree with some of what you're saying, but I also think perpetual bliss is out of humanity's reach, no matter what kind of system (or lack of one) we adopt.

Find a way to enjoy life while it's given to you, but also be happy that you wont have to live in this absurdity forever.

Life is a choice. No one owes us anything we're unwilling to do for ourselves. Don't ruin life for others simply because you're too bored or too unhappy with your own. Better advice is to change your mental state. It can be done. I do it all the time.
Wylted
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12/22/2015 2:13:54 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 1:28:24 AM, Geogeer wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:24:07 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:22:36 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:16:41 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 12/21/2015 11:03:06 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
What if people are better off submitting to the machines?

As the essay that I wrote and did not in any way plagiarize says, it's not something that is happening or something we can foresee happening, and that is outlined there. This is why so many people have mental illnesses and jobs that suck, For Christ sakes, read man.

I read it. I just feel happiness is a state of mind, not a state of perceived liberties. Everyone makes his own cage in his own mind. It's how prisoners learn to deal without going insane. True liberty isn't real. There is a long list of things we have absolutely zero control over. Sanity dictates that you have to arbitrarily set your bar to avoid manic depression.

As far as technology being added to the long list of things we have no power over, sure, it's something to worry about. But I wouldn't count it as something that would NECESSARILY prohibit a happy life either.

It does prohibit a happy life, who wouldn't be happier hunting for 3 hours a day for food and having 21 hours of leisure?

The problem is that the internet is so much better than Uggh's drawing on the cave wall...

Watch it, Uggh is my cousin.
Wylted
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12/22/2015 2:16:17 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 1:56:30 AM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
So what is it that you propose, Wylted: Returning to a pre-Industrial Revolution lifestyle? Is that even possible?

Yes it is possible, we just have to destroy, not keep in place, while the keepers of the system have to keep things in place. With the sole focus of destruction, this can be easy!

You might be lucky just to get a few hundred individuals to follow you. I agree with some of what you're saying, but I also think perpetual bliss is out of humanity's reach, no matter what kind of system (or lack of one) we adopt.

Find a way to enjoy life while it's given to you, but also be happy that you wont have to live in this absurdity forever.

Life is a choice. No one owes us anything we're unwilling to do for ourselves. Don't ruin life for others simply because you're too bored or too unhappy with your own. Better advice is to change your mental state. It can be done. I do it all the time.

Change your mental state to fit within the system? Why not change the system to fit us, instead of visa versa?
spacetime
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12/22/2015 3:30:57 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Wait for a zombie apocalypse and survive it. That's the surest way to attain this goal.
Call me King Pootie Tang.
Wylted
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12/22/2015 7:45:05 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 3:30:57 PM, spacetime wrote:
Wait for a zombie apocalypse and survive it. That's the surest way to attain this goal.

Furioialy working on it, my friend
Skepsikyma
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12/22/2015 10:38:47 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
"The civilized man has built a coach, but has lost the use of his feet. He is supported on crutches, but lacks so much support of the muscle. He has got a fine Geneva watch, but he has lost the skill to tell the hour by the sun. A Greenwich nautical almanac he has, and so being sure of the information when he wants it, the man in the street does not know a star in the sky. The solstice he does not observe; the equinox he knows as little; and the whole bright calendar of the year is without a dial in his mind. His notebooks impair his memory; his libraries overload his wit; the insurance-office increases the number of accidents; and it may be a question whether machinery does not encumber; whether we have not lost by refinement some energy, by a Christianity entrenched in establishments and forms some vigor of wild virtue. For every stoic was a stoic; but in Christendom where is the Christian?

There is no more deviation in the moral standard than in the standard of height or bulk. No greater men are now than ever were. A singular equality may be observed between the great men of the first and of the last ages; nor can all the science, art, religion, and philosophy of the nineteenth century avail to educate greater men than Plutarch's heroes, three or four and twenty centuries ago. Not in time is the race progressive. Phocion, Socrates, Anaxagoras, Diogenes, are great men, but they leave no class. He who is really of their class will not be called by their name, but be wholly his own man, and in his turn a founder of a sect. The arts and inventions of each period are only its costume and do not invigorate men. The harm of the improved machinery may compensate its good. Hudson and Behring accomplished so much in their fishing-boats as to astonish Parry and Franklin, whose equipment exhausted the resources of science and art. Galileo, with an opera-glass, discovered a more splendid series of facts than any one since. Columbus found the New World in an undecked boat. It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. The great genius returns to essential man. We reckoned the improvements of the art of war among the triumphs of science, and yet Napoleon conquered Europe by the Bivouac, which consisted of falling back on naked valor and disencumbering it of all aids. The Emperor held it impossible to make a perfect army, says Las Casas, "without abolishing our arms, magazines, commissaries and carriages, until, in imitation of the Roman custom, the soldier should receive his supply of corn, grind it in his hand-mill and bake his bread himself."

Society is a wave. The wave moves onward, but the water of which it is composed does not. The same particle does not rise from the valley to the ridge. Its unity is only phenomenal. The persons who make up a nation today, die, and their experience with them."
- Self Reliance, Ralph Waldo Emerson -
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Juan_Pablo
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12/22/2015 10:49:01 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Does our present system promote forms of inequality and perceptions of inferiority? Of course.

Does our present system promote an attitude of comformance and wealth imbalance? Of course.

So change these specifically.

But if you're looking for a system of perpetual bliss, you're never going to get it. It's not something that's workable, at least for the vast majority of individuals. Pain and unpleasant feelings will always be with us.
Wylted
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12/22/2015 10:54:15 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 10:49:01 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Does our present system promote forms of inequality and perceptions of inferiority? Of course.

Does our present system promote an attitude of comformance and wealth imbalance? Of course.

So change these specifically.

But if you're looking for a system of perpetual bliss, you're never going to get it. It's not something that's workable, at least for the vast majority of individuals. Pain and unpleasant feelings will always be with us.

The op explains that the system is all dependent on each other, so reforming it is impossible. Those are also not the premises for why industrial society is bad
Wylted
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12/22/2015 10:55:11 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 10:38:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
"The civilized man has built a coach, but has lost the use of his feet. He is supported on crutches, but lacks so much support of the muscle. He has got a fine Geneva watch, but he has lost the skill to tell the hour by the sun. A Greenwich nautical almanac he has, and so being sure of the information when he wants it, the man in the street does not know a star in the sky. The solstice he does not observe; the equinox he knows as little; and the whole bright calendar of the year is without a dial in his mind. His notebooks impair his memory; his libraries overload his wit; the insurance-office increases the number of accidents; and it may be a question whether machinery does not encumber; whether we have not lost by refinement some energy, by a Christianity entrenched in establishments and forms some vigor of wild virtue. For every stoic was a stoic; but in Christendom where is the Christian?

There is no more deviation in the moral standard than in the standard of height or bulk. No greater men are now than ever were. A singular equality may be observed between the great men of the first and of the last ages; nor can all the science, art, religion, and philosophy of the nineteenth century avail to educate greater men than Plutarch's heroes, three or four and twenty centuries ago. Not in time is the race progressive. Phocion, Socrates, Anaxagoras, Diogenes, are great men, but they leave no class. He who is really of their class will not be called by their name, but be wholly his own man, and in his turn a founder of a sect. The arts and inventions of each period are only its costume and do not invigorate men. The harm of the improved machinery may compensate its good. Hudson and Behring accomplished so much in their fishing-boats as to astonish Parry and Franklin, whose equipment exhausted the resources of science and art. Galileo, with an opera-glass, discovered a more splendid series of facts than any one since. Columbus found the New World in an undecked boat. It is curious to see the periodical disuse and perishing of means and machinery which were introduced with loud laudation a few years or centuries before. The great genius returns to essential man. We reckoned the improvements of the art of war among the triumphs of science, and yet Napoleon conquered Europe by the Bivouac, which consisted of falling back on naked valor and disencumbering it of all aids. The Emperor held it impossible to make a perfect army, says Las Casas, "without abolishing our arms, magazines, commissaries and carriages, until, in imitation of the Roman custom, the soldier should receive his supply of corn, grind it in his hand-mill and bake his bread himself."

Society is a wave. The wave moves onward, but the water of which it is composed does not. The same particle does not rise from the valley to the ridge. Its unity is only phenomenal. The persons who make up a nation today, die, and their experience with them."
- Self Reliance, Ralph Waldo Emerson -

That's incredible. Thanks for sharing
Juan_Pablo
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12/22/2015 11:00:32 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Here in the west, we're taught that we should be happy, and that if we're not happy, something is wrong that needs to be fixed. Well, that's part of the problem with our western lifestyle. Sure, thinking this way has benefit us in a multitude of ways. But it also leads to lashing out and acts of incredible violence.

I'm here to tell you that the Buddha was also right: suffering is a part of life, and perfect happiness is out of reach. None of us can be perfectly content. It's just not possible, because of the mechanisms controlling our biology and ultimately giving rise to our consciousness. Pain is part of the language of conscious experiences, and it can't be fully extracted.

Perfect happiness is out of reach for everybody. What isn't out of reach is a punctuated happiness that promotes general comfort and satisfaction in others, as long as they commit to their fair share in our system.

Promoting rape and violence isn't going to promote happiness in the victims now, will it? You're view of happiness of very selfish and very destructive.
Juan_Pablo
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12/22/2015 11:05:23 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Correction:

Here in the west, we're taught that we should be triumphantly happy, and that if we're not happy, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. Well, that's part of the problem with our western lifestyle. Sure, thinking this way has benefited us in a multitude of ways. But it also leads to lashing out and acts of incredible violence.

I'm here to tell you that the Buddha was also right: suffering is a part of life, and perfect happiness is out of reach. None of us can be perfectly content. It's just not possible, because of the mechanisms controlling our biology and ultimately giving rise to our consciousness. Pain is part of the language of conscious experiences, and it can't be fully extracted.

Perfect happiness is out of reach for everybody. What isn't out of reach is a punctuated happiness that promotes general comfort and satisfaction in others, as long as they commit to doing their fair share in our system.

Promoting rape and violence isn't going to promote happiness in the victims now, will it? You're view of happiness is very selfish and very destructive, and doesn't improve the current system we have in place.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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12/23/2015 1:03:28 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 12/22/2015 11:05:23 PM, Juan_Pablo wrote:
Correction:

Here in the west, we're taught that we should be triumphantly happy, and that if we're not happy, something is wrong and it needs to be fixed. Well, that's part of the problem with our western lifestyle. Sure, thinking this way has benefited us in a multitude of ways. But it also leads to lashing out and acts of incredible violence.

I'm here to tell you that the Buddha was also right: suffering is a part of life, and perfect happiness is out of reach. None of us can be perfectly content. It's just not possible, because of the mechanisms controlling our biology and ultimately giving rise to our consciousness. Pain is part of the language of conscious experiences, and it can't be fully extracted.

Perfect happiness is out of reach for everybody. What isn't out of reach is a punctuated happiness that promotes general comfort and satisfaction in others, as long as they commit to doing their fair share in our system.

Promoting rape and violence isn't going to promote happiness in the victims now, will it? You're view of happiness is very selfish and very destructive, and doesn't improve the current system we have in place.

The op advocates for destroying the system and not improving the system. It explains why reform is impossible, and how we are made to fit the system, instead of the system made to fit us.
Blade-of-Truth
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12/26/2015 6:06:25 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
Fvck the system - I'm going off-grid as soon as technology allows for a comfortable lifestyle off grid, lol. I'll still always depend on internet access, and modern amenities, but I would like to get off of the power and water grid specifically.
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Wylted
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1/4/2016 11:09:20 AM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 11:07:18 AM, sravani wrote:
Good information about the system can controls you

Thank you for sharing it

You're welcome.
Wylted
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1/4/2016 12:15:28 PM
Posted: 11 months ago
At 1/4/2016 11:24:37 AM, EndarkenedRationalist wrote:
Except leisure time rose with civilization and industrialization, not the other way around.

I'd say that's true when looking at the earliest civilizations. The farming was brutal and lead to a loss of a ton of leisure time. Farming lead to civilization. Farming is hard work. Industrialization increased leisure time for certain, but I still say that hunter gatherer civilizations have more leisure time than farming societies or society after the occurrence of the industrial revolution