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How Affirmative Action Should Be in Education

PeacefulChaos
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1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
One of the primary reasons we have affirmative action is to give those who are disadvantaged an equal playing field. While I do support the idea of a meritocracy, it should be realized that not all individuals have had the same opportunities in life that would allow them to demonstrate their skill level. Consequently, I do like the idea of affirmative action to help those individuals who have been disadvantaged in life.

However, I do not necessarily agree that we should place the focus of affirmative action on racial groups. Instead, placing a greater emphasis on financial condition would more accurately reflect an individual's level of opportunity or advantage in life. As some term it, their privilege. Indeed, I've seen quite a few arguments concerning white privilege, yet most often, they consist of unsubstantiated or unquantifiable feelings, such as:

White privilege means you don't have to worry about being monitored in a store because of the color of your skin.

or

The skin color of white people does not work against them in terms of how people perceive their financial responsibility, skills or performance, or style of dress.

Neither of these are things we can measure and are merely the result of personal experiences (i.e. they are how people feel about other people's thoughts). Despite this, there are some debatable points. For example, some point to the overrepresentation black people have in arrests or crimes as proof of institutional racism. At the same time, others state that this isn't proof of institutional racism, but is rather proof of the violent tendencies of "black culture". Neither of these arguments seem to be supported by any facts, but claiming that it is the result of institutional racism isn't entirely wrong. We see that black people are also overrepresented in poverty, and this is probably which leads to an overrepresentation in crime. Impoverished areas typically have higher crime rates, after all. Black people are overrepresented in poverty due to past institutions that continued to discriminate against black people even after slavery was ended. This, combined with lack of inherited financial wealth, led to the situation we have today. Of course, this is my understanding of the matter, and it may not be entirely correct.

From this, then, I believe that focusing affirmative action on financial opportunity would greater benefit those who are disadvantaged. This is because the issue seems to stem from poverty. Yes, I just said above that past institutions of slavery or racism have resulted in the situation we have today (at least in part), but I do not believe that the society we live in is one that is currently disadvantageous to black people as it once was (i.e. laws and institutions officially ensure equality); thus, as a remedy, it would not be entirely beneficial to primarily focus on racial groups, as there are numerous successful black people who have been quite financially privileged in their life. Why should they benefit from affirmative action as opposed to those people who were born in low income families? It would be best to look at this from a financial, not racial, standpoint. This is the primary source of the "privilege" that some people have and others do not. This is what is really important and really impacts people's lives. What isn't impactful privilege is:

The color of the bandaid matches my skin color.

or

I see my race in the news more often than other races.

These are my thoughts on the matter. What do others think?
Maikuru
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1/14/2016 7:02:29 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:

That was a thoughtful post and I, as I am literally 4 minutes away from stepping into a classroom to discuss these topics, I appreciated the read. There are some areas where I would push back (re: the continued role of race in the financial and educational condition of Blacks in the US today), but I do agree that SES-based affirmative action is extremely important in this country and would have a huge beneficial impact on our educational system at all levels.

I would meet you in the middle, though; there is a quantifiable intersectionality of SES and race in terms of academic outcomes, job distribution, and incarceration rates. If AA is to exist, it would benefit from recognizing disadvantages related to both areas.

Alright, I'm late lol
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janesix
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1/14/2016 10:14:57 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
One of the primary reasons we have affirmative action is to give those who are disadvantaged an equal playing field. While I do support the idea of a meritocracy, it should be realized that not all individuals have had the same opportunities in life that would allow them to demonstrate their skill level. Consequently, I do like the idea of affirmative action to help those individuals who have been disadvantaged in life.

However, I do not necessarily agree that we should place the focus of affirmative action on racial groups. Instead, placing a greater emphasis on financial condition would more accurately reflect an individual's level of opportunity or advantage in life. As some term it, their privilege. Indeed, I've seen quite a few arguments concerning white privilege, yet most often, they consist of unsubstantiated or unquantifiable feelings, such as:

White privilege means you don't have to worry about being monitored in a store because of the color of your skin.

or

The skin color of white people does not work against them in terms of how people perceive their financial responsibility, skills or performance, or style of dress.

Neither of these are things we can measure and are merely the result of personal experiences (i.e. they are how people feel about other people's thoughts). Despite this, there are some debatable points. For example, some point to the overrepresentation black people have in arrests or crimes as proof of institutional racism. At the same time, others state that this isn't proof of institutional racism, but is rather proof of the violent tendencies of "black culture". Neither of these arguments seem to be supported by any facts, but claiming that it is the result of institutional racism isn't entirely wrong. We see that black people are also overrepresented in poverty, and this is probably which leads to an overrepresentation in crime. Impoverished areas typically have higher crime rates, after all. Black people are overrepresented in poverty due to past institutions that continued to discriminate against black people even after slavery was ended. This, combined with lack of inherited financial wealth, led to the situation we have today. Of course, this is my understanding of the matter, and it may not be entirely correct.

From this, then, I believe that focusing affirmative action on financial opportunity would greater benefit those who are disadvantaged. This is because the issue seems to stem from poverty. Yes, I just said above that past institutions of slavery or racism have resulted in the situation we have today (at least in part), but I do not believe that the society we live in is one that is currently disadvantageous to black people as it once was (i.e. laws and institutions officially ensure equality); thus, as a remedy, it would not be entirely beneficial to primarily focus on racial groups, as there are numerous successful black people who have been quite financially privileged in their life. Why should they benefit from affirmative action as opposed to those people who were born in low income families? It would be best to look at this from a financial, not racial, standpoint. This is the primary source of the "privilege" that some people have and others do not. This is what is really important and really impacts people's lives. What isn't impactful privilege is:

The color of the bandaid matches my skin color.

or

I see my race in the news more often than other races.

These are my thoughts on the matter. What do others think?

"Affirmative action" should be abolished. People need to get of their lazy a$$es and do things for themselves. No more special treatment and handouts.
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 5:06:04 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 7:02:29 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:

That was a thoughtful post and I, as I am literally 4 minutes away from stepping into a classroom to discuss these topics, I appreciated the read. There are some areas where I would push back (re: the continued role of race in the financial and educational condition of Blacks in the US today), but I do agree that SES-based affirmative action is extremely important in this country and would have a huge beneficial impact on our educational system at all levels.

I would meet you in the middle, though; there is a quantifiable intersectionality of SES and race in terms of academic outcomes, job distribution, and incarceration rates. If AA is to exist, it would benefit from recognizing disadvantages related to both areas.

Alright, I'm late lol

Not sure what you mean by "quantifiable intersectionality of SES and race."

I do know that there are correlations between these two factors, but is there evidence that this is the result of institutional racism that currently exists in society as opposed to the effects of past institutions on today's society?
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 5:10:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 10:14:57 PM, janesix wrote:

"Affirmative action" should be abolished. People need to get of their lazy a$$es and do things for themselves. No more special treatment and handouts.

What of those individuals whose family's financial conditions are deplorable?

One could argue that they aren't the lazy ones, since they didn't have such luxuries as financial security. They had no special advantages in life.

You also cannot blame their financial condition on them, since they were born into families with low-income. How do you justify ignoring the disadvantages they face?
Deb-8-A-Bull
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1/15/2016 5:22:41 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 5:10:10 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/14/2016 10:14:57 PM, janesix wrote:

"Affirmative action" should be abolished. People need to get of their lazy a$$es and do things for themselves. No more special treatment and handouts.

What of those individuals whose family's financial conditions are deplorable?

One could argue that they aren't the lazy ones, since they didn't have such luxuries as financial security. They had no special advantages in life.

You also cannot blame their financial condition on them, since they were born into families with low-income. How do you justify ignoring the disadvantages they face?

Or how hard it was playing hide n seek at night, against my many black friends. It was hard for me as a white kid .
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 6:01:15 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 5:22:41 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:

Or how hard it was playing hide n seek at night, against my many black friends. It was hard for me as a white kid .

How is this relevant to anything in this discussion?
Deb-8-A-Bull
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1/15/2016 6:38:26 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 6:01:15 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/15/2016 5:22:41 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:

Or how hard it was playing hide n seek at night, against my many black friends. It was hard for me as a white kid .

How is this relevant to anything in this discussion?

You want to consider it, or would rather see the help being put towards financial needy . Then race. you pretty much make 5 racist slurs . And then no example of financial . And the comment about the band aid , stuck in my head, it's like you where smart about being racist. Anyway
janesix
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1/15/2016 7:08:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 5:10:10 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/14/2016 10:14:57 PM, janesix wrote:

"Affirmative action" should be abolished. People need to get of their lazy a$$es and do things for themselves. No more special treatment and handouts.

What of those individuals whose family's financial conditions are deplorable?

Get good grades, get grants, work hard. Like everyone else has to do.

One could argue that they aren't the lazy ones, since they didn't have such luxuries as financial security. They had no special advantages in life.

You also cannot blame their financial condition on them, since they were born into families with low-income. How do you justify ignoring the disadvantages they face?
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 9:47:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 6:38:26 PM, Deb-8-A-Bull wrote:

You want to consider it, or would rather see the help being put towards financial needy . Then race.

The point of this post was to demonstrate that we should not give aid based on race. Perhaps you misunderstood me.

you pretty much make 5 racist slurs .

Would you be kind enough to point them out?

And then no example of financial .

Example of financial? What does this mean?

And the comment about the band aid , stuck in my head, it's like you where smart about being racist. Anyway

I have difficulty understanding you.
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 9:50:35 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 7:08:12 PM, janesix wrote:

Get good grades, get grants, work hard. Like everyone else has to do.

Not everyone has to face the same troubles, so it is not correct to say "like everyone else has to do." Children who are part of financially unstable families tend to have worse performance in school (due to a variety of reasons, but generally speaking they have less resources available to them).

Consequently, the amount of effort those individuals must put in would be much higher. From a very early age, they suffer these consequences.
janesix
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1/15/2016 9:54:42 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 9:50:35 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/15/2016 7:08:12 PM, janesix wrote:

Get good grades, get grants, work hard. Like everyone else has to do.

Not everyone has to face the same troubles, so it is not correct to say "like everyone else has to do." Children who are part of financially unstable families tend to have worse performance in school (due to a variety of reasons, but generally speaking they have less resources available to them).

Consequently, the amount of effort those individuals must put in would be much higher. From a very early age, they suffer these consequences.

That's complete bs. Getting good grades has to do with self-discipline, not resources. I was poor and got good grades easily.
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 10:11:00 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 9:54:42 PM, janesix wrote:

That's complete bs. Getting good grades has to do with self-discipline, not resources. I was poor and got good grades easily.

It unfortunately not BS. I'm sure you can find studies that demonstrate the grades of poorer students relative to other students.

I agree that getting good grades has to do with self-discipline, but it is incorrect to say that resources do not play a significant role. For example, low-income households would contain less books for their children and the parents would probably not be as well-educated. In other words, children from low-income families start at a disadvantage and typically have reading or writing abilities that are not as developed as they should be.

While the key to success would be to read a lot and practice writing as much as possible, we have to remember that:

1. These are kids. Their concept of their future and completing assignments is severely limited. The ones who should be instilling motivation in them and guiding them outside of the classroom is their parents. If parents aren't as well-educated or don't see the importance of getting good grades in school, the child won't succeed as much as others.

2. Children would have less access to books if they don't have as much money.

I believe that it is wonderful that you received good grades in school despite any hindering factors related to your economic well-being. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is not as reliable, and exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend.
janesix
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1/15/2016 10:16:03 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 10:11:00 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/15/2016 9:54:42 PM, janesix wrote:

That's complete bs. Getting good grades has to do with self-discipline, not resources. I was poor and got good grades easily.

It unfortunately not BS. I'm sure you can find studies that demonstrate the grades of poorer students relative to other students.

I agree that getting good grades has to do with self-discipline, but it is incorrect to say that resources do not play a significant role. For example, low-income households would contain less books for their children and the parents would probably not be as well-educated. In other words, children from low-income families start at a disadvantage and typically have reading or writing abilities that are not as developed as they should be.

While the key to success would be to read a lot and practice writing as much as possible, we have to remember that:

1. These are kids. Their concept of their future and completing assignments is severely limited. The ones who should be instilling motivation in them and guiding them outside of the classroom is their parents. If parents aren't as well-educated or don't see the importance of getting good grades in school, the child won't succeed as much as others.

2. Children would have less access to books if they don't have as much money.

I believe that it is wonderful that you received good grades in school despite any hindering factors related to your economic well-being. Unfortunately, anecdotal evidence is not as reliable, and exceptions to a trend do not disprove the trend.

Please stop trying to make excuses for people too lazy and un-self-disciplined to get good grades and make something of their lives. Everyone in the United States has equal opportunity to make something of themselves. Except for certain minorities who have MORE opportunity, yet don't even bother using it or show gratefulness for it, and who instead always want more special treatment and handouts.
PeacefulChaos
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1/15/2016 10:29:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 10:16:03 PM, janesix wrote:

Please stop trying to make excuses for people too lazy and un-self-disciplined to get good grades and make something of their lives.

These are children. They have no concept of making "something of their lives," and they are already put behind in terms of reading comprehension as I've stated above.

Everyone in the United States has equal opportunity to make something of themselves.

If this was the case, there would not be such large extremes in income gaps.
Maikuru
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1/15/2016 10:37:02 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 5:06:04 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/14/2016 7:02:29 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:

That was a thoughtful post and I, as I am literally 4 minutes away from stepping into a classroom to discuss these topics, I appreciated the read. There are some areas where I would push back (re: the continued role of race in the financial and educational condition of Blacks in the US today), but I do agree that SES-based affirmative action is extremely important in this country and would have a huge beneficial impact on our educational system at all levels.

I would meet you in the middle, though; there is a quantifiable intersectionality of SES and race in terms of academic outcomes, job distribution, and incarceration rates. If AA is to exist, it would benefit from recognizing disadvantages related to both areas.

Alright, I'm late lol

Not sure what you mean by "quantifiable intersectionality of SES and race."

I mean there is an effect of SES, an effect of race, and a unique additional impact of both SES and race combined. In other words, SES and race work independently and together to disadvantage certain groups and individuals. SES-based AA addresses only part of the problem.

I do know that there are correlations between these two factors, but is there evidence that this is the result of institutional racism that currently exists in society as opposed to the effects of past institutions on today's society?

Yes, there is evidence that institutional racism currently exists in the implementation of new biased societal superstructures (e.g., obviously in academe and the justice system, but also in areas like city planning, transportation-related systems and construction, and the inequitable distribution of public services). Of course, the perpetuation of such systems from the past is also symptomatic of the larger need for comprehensive reform. Even if that weren't the case, though, I'm not sure the distinction would matter, as SES-based AA alone would not address current financial and educational inequities. It is important, but it simply has too narrow a focus.
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janesix
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1/17/2016 9:44:38 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/15/2016 10:29:12 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/15/2016 10:16:03 PM, janesix wrote:

Please stop trying to make excuses for people too lazy and un-self-disciplined to get good grades and make something of their lives.

These are children. They have no concept of making "something of their lives," and they are already put behind in terms of reading comprehension as I've stated above.

Everyone in the United States has equal opportunity to make something of themselves.

If this was the case, there would not be such large extremes in income gaps.

You're right. And it's all YT's fault, isn't it?
janesix
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1/18/2016 2:42:20 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 12:31:59 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/17/2016 9:44:38 PM, janesix wrote:

You're right. And it's all YT's fault, isn't it?

YT?
Huh?? Wuh??
PeacefulChaos
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1/18/2016 3:45:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 2:42:20 AM, janesix wrote:
Huh?? Wuh??

I have no idea what you're speaking of when you say YT.

I am aware that you are mocking me, but as you present no substance to which I can respond, I am forced to ask questions.
janesix
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1/18/2016 8:23:33 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 3:45:33 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/18/2016 2:42:20 AM, janesix wrote:
Huh?? Wuh??

I have no idea what you're speaking of when you say YT.

I am aware that you are mocking me, but as you present no substance to which I can respond, I am forced to ask questions.

I wasn't mocking YOU. I know it's not your fault, you are indoctrinated. When you finally get a clue, I hope it's not too late.
PeacefulChaos
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1/18/2016 8:27:03 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 8:23:33 PM, janesix wrote:

I wasn't mocking YOU. I know it's not your fault, you are indoctrinated. When you finally get a clue, I hope it's not too late.

Due to your reluctance to expand on what you mean, I assume you don't want to converse any longer. If that is the case, then thanks for offering your viewpoint on the matter.
bballcrook21
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1/20/2016 1:45:13 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/14/2016 10:14:57 PM, janesix wrote:
At 1/14/2016 6:47:37 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
One of the primary reasons we have affirmative action is to give those who are disadvantaged an equal playing field. While I do support the idea of a meritocracy, it should be realized that not all individuals have had the same opportunities in life that would allow them to demonstrate their skill level. Consequently, I do like the idea of affirmative action to help those individuals who have been disadvantaged in life.

However, I do not necessarily agree that we should place the focus of affirmative action on racial groups. Instead, placing a greater emphasis on financial condition would more accurately reflect an individual's level of opportunity or advantage in life. As some term it, their privilege. Indeed, I've seen quite a few arguments concerning white privilege, yet most often, they consist of unsubstantiated or unquantifiable feelings, such as:

White privilege means you don't have to worry about being monitored in a store because of the color of your skin.

or

The skin color of white people does not work against them in terms of how people perceive their financial responsibility, skills or performance, or style of dress.

Neither of these are things we can measure and are merely the result of personal experiences (i.e. they are how people feel about other people's thoughts). Despite this, there are some debatable points. For example, some point to the overrepresentation black people have in arrests or crimes as proof of institutional racism. At the same time, others state that this isn't proof of institutional racism, but is rather proof of the violent tendencies of "black culture". Neither of these arguments seem to be supported by any facts, but claiming that it is the result of institutional racism isn't entirely wrong. We see that black people are also overrepresented in poverty, and this is probably which leads to an overrepresentation in crime. Impoverished areas typically have higher crime rates, after all. Black people are overrepresented in poverty due to past institutions that continued to discriminate against black people even after slavery was ended. This, combined with lack of inherited financial wealth, led to the situation we have today. Of course, this is my understanding of the matter, and it may not be entirely correct.

From this, then, I believe that focusing affirmative action on financial opportunity would greater benefit those who are disadvantaged. This is because the issue seems to stem from poverty. Yes, I just said above that past institutions of slavery or racism have resulted in the situation we have today (at least in part), but I do not believe that the society we live in is one that is currently disadvantageous to black people as it once was (i.e. laws and institutions officially ensure equality); thus, as a remedy, it would not be entirely beneficial to primarily focus on racial groups, as there are numerous successful black people who have been quite financially privileged in their life. Why should they benefit from affirmative action as opposed to those people who were born in low income families? It would be best to look at this from a financial, not racial, standpoint. This is the primary source of the "privilege" that some people have and others do not. This is what is really important and really impacts people's lives. What isn't impactful privilege is:

The color of the bandaid matches my skin color.

or

I see my race in the news more often than other races.

These are my thoughts on the matter. What do others think?

"Affirmative action" should be abolished. People need to get of their lazy a$$es and do things for themselves. No more special treatment and handouts.

+1
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YYW
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1/20/2016 2:34:25 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
In real professions (law, medicine--not psychology, engineering, business) where competence matters, race based affirmative action is limited in the sense that incompetent people will not be admitted to high institutions.

In joke professions (social science, psychology, sociology, education in general, etc.), race based affirmative action creates the opportunities for even the most incompetent people to get into graduate programs, because the stakes are so much lower, there.

It's my view that race based affirmative action should be gone; like, no more of it. It hurts minority communities, and worse, hurts higher education and totally undermines the credibility of academic departments.
Maikuru
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1/22/2016 5:29:18 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/18/2016 12:31:59 AM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/17/2016 9:44:38 PM, janesix wrote:

You're right. And it's all YT's fault, isn't it?

YT?

YT = Whitey
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Maikuru
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1/22/2016 5:48:10 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/22/2016 5:41:30 PM, PeacefulChaos wrote:
At 1/22/2016 5:29:18 PM, Maikuru wrote:

YT = Whitey

Amazing

lol yeah
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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