Total Posts:23|Showing Posts:1-23
Jump to topic:

The History of Racism

Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
This is going to be an examination of the history of racism. Now, to be specific, I'm not referring to the age-old phenomenon of ethnic in-group loyalty, which is as old as the human race, and it probably an unalterable part of human nature. I'm referring to the 'colorist' racism primarily practiced in the US, which associates 'good' and 'bad' with two extremities on a melanin spectrum.

This is a relatively recent development, and isn't even fully tied to slavery. In the Ottoman Empire, for example, the enslaved eunuchs which served the Sultans were drawn from several pools, including blood-taxed Slavs and slaves from Abyssinia and the surrounding regions (present-day Ethiopia). Since Abyssinia was a highly developed empire with extensive culture and education, the 'black eunuchs' from that region were considered more 'civilized' stock, and often rose to positions of immense powers, going from scribes to spymasters to power brokers within the imperial court. The uneducated Slavs, meanwhile, were seen as warrior stock, and eventually formed the famed Janisarries, the body guards to the Sultan, and a power in their own right. I this historical instance, we see the typical paradigm reversed.

In the New World as well, low-class white indentured servants and captured or bred African slaves made up large parts of the manual labor class. In some areas (French Louisiana) freed blacks even became slave owners, though the number was small in the grand scheme of things. There were several conflicts during which these lower classes fought together against their joint oppression, and it is in the resolution of one of these that we can see the seeds of America's particular brand of racism being planted. Known as Bacon's Rebellion, it started for various economic and sociopolitical reasons, but is particularly notable because the classes subjected to bond-servitude joined forces in order to overthrow the ruling class and torch the capital of Virginia.

Once the rebellion was suppressed by troops from England, the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705 were passed. Before these laws went into effect, white indentured servants and black slaves didn't have a huge amount of difference between them as far as rights went. By systemically stripping blacks of the right to own weapons it directly negated the risk of rebellion. But that wasn't enough. In order to completely prevent any possibility of future cooperation, the laws codified racism: no black could hire a white for any job, and no black could strike a white for any reason. This little tweak was masterful bit of manipulation playing on basic human nature. As Emily Bronte put it in Wuthering Heights: 'The tyrant grinds down his slaves and they don't turn against him, they crush those beneath them.' By elevating the white underclass above the black underclass, the Virginia aristocrats had breathed life into a myth which still haunts us: the myth of white supremacy. For hundreds of years afterwards, white immigrants would learn to embrace this legacy. How simple, after arriving in a new land, terrified, alone, and afraid, to have a ready-made effigy to spit on and build a sense of camaraderie. Hatred-based bonding became an essential part of American society, in a similar way that antisemitism had been (and still is, to some degree) an essential part of European society.

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

Racism, both historical and contemporary, is essentially the legacy of this dynamic. The dehumanizing and othering of a group of people who cannot, by virtue of their appearance, disappear and meld in to the body politic. The conflict has haunted the collected consciousness of American society for centuries, and survives in a hundred little ways. Black hair is seen as unclean, light-skinned blacks are seen as more attractive, black criminals are seen as more dangerous, black men are perceived as a sexual threats, black speech is seen as less intelligent, etc. etc. This pervasive othering and fear is also most common among lower-class whites, because the method of control laid down is 1705 is still in full swing: when you have very little left, 'at least I'm not black' is one thing to cling to. It always has been; it's an ugly element of the 'melting pot'. Society already has the assumption wrapped up in a myriad of little pervasive nuances, reflected in everything from fashion to corporate culture to toy design. This doesn't mean that classism doesn't exist, it means that racism is a potent schismatic element of classism which makes it much more difficult to resolve, because America has two distinct underclasses, and they are managed in a way that prevents unified action. The divide is assiduously cultivated to prevent collective action, and maintain the status quo.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 4:13:55 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

I'm not trying to ignore the crux of your argument but I skimmed (I'm short on time) and this caught my eye. I'm curious about your opinion on Conrad. He's widely criticized for characterizing Africans are animalistic in HoD, no?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
bballcrook21
Posts: 4,468
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 4:25:47 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 4:13:55 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

I'm not trying to ignore the crux of your argument but I skimmed (I'm short on time) and this caught my eye. I'm curious about your opinion on Conrad. He's widely criticized for characterizing Africans are animalistic in HoD, no?

Africans are animalistic though, more so than other races. Look up the warrior gene.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 4:42:02 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Hold on, I'm realizing you and I may have talked about HoD last year in another thread lol
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 5:21:49 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 4:13:55 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

I'm not trying to ignore the crux of your argument but I skimmed (I'm short on time) and this caught my eye. I'm curious about your opinion on Conrad. He's widely criticized for characterizing Africans are animalistic in HoD, no?

I think that his point is more that all men are animalistic, and that the 'darkness' that 'civilized people' project onto the jungle is a part of them, and that when they dehumanize its denizens they are denying and attempting to suffocate a part of themselves that they aren't comfortable with. When the main character returns to Europe, he sees things through a new lens, and 'civilized' life leaves a bad taste in his mouth. There's also a bit where he discusses the natives, and he says that 'fools' dismiss them as animals, that what is so interesting about them to him is their shared humanity; that there's something to be communicated at the existential razor's edge that a non-technologically advanced society operates at. I think that T.S. Eliot, who was influenced by the novel, summed up the whole theme very well in his 'Choruses from The Rock':

'You neglect and belittle the desert.
The desert is not remote in southern tropics
The desert is not only around the corner,
The desert is squeezed in the tube-train next to you,
The desert is in the heart of your brother.'

The bit I was talking about was this passage, which describe the grief of Kurtz's widow: "She put out her arms as if after a retreating figure, stretching them black and with clasped pale hands across the fading and narrow sheen of the window. Never see him! I saw him clearly enough then. I shall see this eloquent phantom as long as I live, and I shall see her too, a tragic and familiar Shade, resembling in this gesture another one, tragic also, and bedecked with powerless charms, stretching bare brown arms over the glitter of the infernal stream, the stream of darkness. She said suddenly very low, 'He died as he lived.' "

What was revolutionary about that was the moral equivalence drawn between a grieving white respectable lady and a native African women. Did Conrad have well-developed and interesting black characters? No. But that comparison, in 1899, was a revolutionary one.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 5:40:40 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
This is going to be an examination of the history of racism. Now, to be specific, I'm not referring to the age-old phenomenon of ethnic in-group loyalty, which is as old as the human race, and it probably an unalterable part of human nature.

- I totally agree with this bit. I've seen you mention this in-group loyalty many times before. I am curious, does it stem from your reading of Muq'addimah ('Asabyyah), or is there as parallel understanding in western scholarship?

I'm referring to the 'colorist' racism primarily practiced in the US, which associates 'good' and 'bad' with two extremities on a melanin spectrum.

- Hm... 'melanin spectrum'. LOL!

This is a relatively recent development, and isn't even fully tied to slavery. In the Ottoman Empire, for example, the enslaved eunuchs which served the Sultans were drawn from several pools, including blood-taxed Slavs and slaves from Abyssinia and the surrounding regions (present-day Ethiopia). Since Abyssinia was a highly developed empire with extensive culture and education, the 'black eunuchs' from that region were considered more 'civilized' stock, and often rose to positions of immense powers, going from scribes to spymasters to power brokers within the imperial court. The uneducated Slavs, meanwhile, were seen as warrior stock, and eventually formed the famed Janisarries, the body guards to the Sultan, and a power in their own right. I this historical instance, we see the typical paradigm reversed.

- That was the case even way before the Ottomans. The Abyssinians always enjoyed immense respect from the Arabs & Muslims (especially Persians, with whom they had the most interaction). In literature, they were described usually as 'wise', 'patient', 'honourable'... (such as how, Ibn Sina, Ibn Battouta, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn al-Azraq'... described them), & many of the greatest scholars were form Abyssinian origin, such as Sa'id Ibn Jubayr. Turks were often described as 'loyal', 'reliable', 'spirited'... etc. Arabs had for the most part, positive views of peoples around them, first Jews, Abyssinians & Egyptians, then Persians & Turks & Berbers, then Indians & Chinese... Europeans, however, were seen mostly in a negative light, 'mindless', 'unclean', 'ignorant'... During the crusades, Muslim authorities used to spread awareness among the population on how to avoid the unclean crusaders to prevent diseases. The Romans (in Byzantine) were an exception.

- It is true that Europeans were mostly barbaric & semi-barbaric cultures prior to the Modern Ages, as described by Le Bon. Few exceptions include the Romans of Byzantine & in some regions in Italy. Their coming to civilisation is, in fact, one of the latest instances in History, as opposed to the Middle East, India, China... Yet, there seem to be a wide-spread impression of the opposite! Proof: check the comments above ('Africans are animalistic though, more so than other races.').

Once the rebellion was suppressed by troops from England, the Virginia Slave Codes of 1705 were passed. Before these laws went into effect, white indentured servants and black slaves didn't have a huge amount of difference between them as far as rights went. By systemically stripping blacks of the right to own weapons it directly negated the risk of rebellion. But that wasn't enough. In order to completely prevent any possibility of future cooperation, the laws codified racism: no black could hire a white for any job, and no black could strike a white for any reason. This little tweak was masterful bit of manipulation playing on basic human nature. As Emily Bronte put it in Wuthering Heights: 'The tyrant grinds down his slaves and they don't turn against him, they crush those beneath them.' By elevating the white underclass above the black underclass, the Virginia aristocrats had breathed life into a myth which still haunts us: the myth of white supremacy. For hundreds of years afterwards, white immigrants would learn to embrace this legacy.

- What is baffling to me is how the educated amongst them succeeded in reconciling White History with White Supremacy. An oxymoron right there! Then again, so much success might make sense if attributed to genetics. The problem is, this still is the case in much of western scholarship.

How simple, after arriving in a new land, terrified, alone, and afraid, to have a ready-made effigy to spit on and build a sense of camaraderie. Hatred-based bonding became an essential part of American society, in a similar way that antisemitism had been (and still is, to some degree) an essential part of European society.

- You're right about anti-semitism in Europe being a fact of life. Jews in Europe before WWII, especially during medieval times, have indeed suffered greatly. But, I don't think anti-semitism is still a real thing here & now, far from it.

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

Racism, both historical and contemporary, is essentially the legacy of this dynamic. The dehumanizing and othering of a group of people who cannot, by virtue of their appearance, disappear and meld in to the body politic. The conflict has haunted the collected consciousness of American society for centuries, and survives in a hundred little ways. Black hair is seen as unclean, light-skinned blacks are seen as more attractive, black criminals are seen as more dangerous, black men are perceived as a sexual threats, black speech is seen as less intelligent, etc. etc.

- Quite accurate. I think this is extended to other races as well.

This pervasive othering and fear is also most common among lower-class whites, because the method of control laid down is 1705 is still in full swing: when you have very little left, 'at least I'm not black' is one thing to cling to.

- LOL!

It always has been; it's an ugly element of the 'melting pot'. Society already has the assumption wrapped up in a myriad of little pervasive nuances, reflected in everything from fashion to corporate culture to toy design. This doesn't mean that classism doesn't exist, it means that racism is a potent schismatic element of classism which makes it much more difficult to resolve, because America has two distinct underclasses, and they are managed in a way that prevents unified action. The divide is assiduously cultivated to prevent collective action, and maintain the status quo.

- This too utterly baffles me. American scholarship is doing a miserable job in this regard. The fact that Black & White is still is relevant scholarly class distinction in today America is disturbing, especially since other, in my view, much less important distinctions, namely sexual orientation, saw radical changes in just few decades.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 5:44:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 4:25:47 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 1/28/2016 4:13:55 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

I'm not trying to ignore the crux of your argument but I skimmed (I'm short on time) and this caught my eye. I'm curious about your opinion on Conrad. He's widely criticized for characterizing Africans are animalistic in HoD, no?

Africans are animalistic though, more so than other races. Look up the warrior gene.

The monoamine oxidase genes? The incidence of that allele is minuscule, lol, saying that Africans in general are more animalistic because of it is ludicrous. Also, 'Africans' is a huge genetic pool; it's probably a localized occurrence in one genetic subgroup (since the incidence is around 5%) which is being projected on to a larger demographic instead of just doing more research into its precise origins.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 5:58:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

- Seriously, how do westerners reconcile the idea of the Dark Ages with that of White Supremacy.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 6:00:45 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 5:40:40 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
This is going to be an examination of the history of racism. Now, to be specific, I'm not referring to the age-old phenomenon of ethnic in-group loyalty, which is as old as the human race, and it probably an unalterable part of human nature.

- I totally agree with this bit. I've seen you mention this in-group loyalty many times before. I am curious, does it stem from your reading of Muq'addimah ('Asabyyah), or is there as parallel understanding in western scholarship?

Some of it came from the Muq'addimah, but it's also been proven through some psychological studies. Plus it seems like common sense to me; we evolved from tribal societies, so the traits which allowed us to function in that context are still there to some degree.

- That was the case even way before the Ottomans. The Abyssinians always enjoyed immense respect from the Arabs & Muslims (especially Persians, with whom they had the most interaction). In literature, they were described usually as 'wise', 'patient', 'honourable'... (such as how, Ibn Sina, Ibn Battouta, Ibn Khaldun, Ibn al-Azraq'... described them), & many of the greatest scholars were form Abyssinian origin, such as Sa'id Ibn Jubayr. Turks were often described as 'loyal', 'reliable', 'spirited'... etc. Arabs had for the most part, positive views of peoples around them, first Jews, Abyssinians & Egyptians, then Persians & Turks & Berbers, then Indians & Chinese... Europeans, however, were seen mostly in a negative light, 'mindless', 'unclean', 'ignorant'... During the crusades, Muslim authorities used to spread awareness among the population on how to avoid the unclean crusaders to prevent diseases. The Romans (in Byzantine) were an exception.

- It is true that Europeans were mostly barbaric & semi-barbaric cultures prior to the Modern Ages, as described by Le Bon. Few exceptions include the Romans of Byzantine & in some regions in Italy. Their coming to civilisation is, in fact, one of the latest instances in History, as opposed to the Middle East, India, China... Yet, there seem to be a wide-spread impression of the opposite! Proof: check the comments above ('Africans are animalistic though, more so than other races.').

Yeah... I love when people try to say things like 'the Germans conquered Rome!'.... no, that was the Goths, and they settled mostly in Italy, Spain, Mediterranean Islands, and what was once Carthage and is now Tunisia. Or the idea that Roman cultural advancements can be attributed to whites... when a huge amount of present-day white genetics originated in Central Asia. And most of what the Anglo-Saxons ended up achieving, they did after Aethelberht brought Roman law, religion, and customs to England. It's just such a silly myth.

- What is baffling to me is how the educated amongst them succeeded in reconciling White History with White Supremacy. An oxymoron right there! Then again, so much success might make sense if attributed to genetics. The problem is, this still is the case in much of western scholarship.

Self delusion is actually remarkably easy. One of the funniest things is watching Victorian historians, for example, dance around the sexual habits of the Greeks and Romans. Where there's a will, there's a way.

How simple, after arriving in a new land, terrified, alone, and afraid, to have a ready-made effigy to spit on and build a sense of camaraderie. Hatred-based bonding became an essential part of American society, in a similar way that antisemitism had been (and still is, to some degree) an essential part of European society.

- You're right about anti-semitism in Europe being a fact of life. Jews in Europe before WWII, especially during medieval times, have indeed suffered greatly. But, I don't think anti-semitism is still a real thing here & now, far from it.

In rural areas, it probably is.

It always has been; it's an ugly element of the 'melting pot'. Society already has the assumption wrapped up in a myriad of little pervasive nuances, reflected in everything from fashion to corporate culture to toy design. This doesn't mean that classism doesn't exist, it means that racism is a potent schismatic element of classism which makes it much more difficult to resolve, because America has two distinct underclasses, and they are managed in a way that prevents unified action. The divide is assiduously cultivated to prevent collective action, and maintain the status quo.

- This too utterly baffles me. American scholarship is doing a miserable job in this regard. The fact that Black & White is still is relevant scholarly class distinction in today America is disturbing, especially since other, in my view, much less important distinctions, namely sexual orientation, saw radical changes in just few decades.

It's part of the fabric of the country, and of the psyche of white people in general. Cultural change like that is really, really hard to roll back.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 6:04:31 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 5:58:31 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

- Seriously, how do westerners reconcile the idea of the Dark Ages with that of White Supremacy.

Well, the idea of the Dark Ages is, too some degree, a bit overblown, so usually they just claim that it was almost completely fabricated, and that what Dark Age there was can be attributed to the evil Catholic Church, which the noble Protestants rebelled against, bringing the Enlightenment. Now, how they affirm the Bible, while holding that the people who basically compiled and translated it were corrupt and without authority... that's a trick that I still don't understand.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 6:50:32 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 6:00:45 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Some of it came from the Muq'addimah, but it's also been proven through some psychological studies. Plus it seems like common sense to me; we evolved from tribal societies, so the traits which allowed us to function in that context are still there to some degree.

- It is pretty common sense, & an universal fact of human history. Nationalism, for instance, is a manifestation of 'Asabyyah.

Yeah... I love when people try to say things like 'the Germans conquered Rome!'.... no, that was the Goths, and they settled mostly in Italy, Spain, Mediterranean Islands, and what was once Carthage and is now Tunisia.

- True, borders =/= races.

Or the idea that Roman cultural advancements can be attributed to whites... when a huge amount of present-day white genetics originated in Central Asia.

- Exactly, & the Greeks too.

And most of what the Anglo-Saxons ended up achieving, they did after Aethelberht brought Roman law, religion, and customs to England. It's just such a silly myth.

- Many would think otherwise though. For me, what is most disturbing, is when some Arab academics, for instance, advocate such ideas. This was a phenomenon happening around the 1920, 1930s to the 1970s & 1980s. & it still has some remnants today.

Self delusion is actually remarkably easy. One of the funniest things is watching Victorian historians, for example, dance around the sexual habits of the Greeks and Romans.

- I wonder how current historians would fair against the sexual practices of pre-20th century Europe/America. To me, one of the most bizarre & arbitrary things is these societies is the history of consent laws.

Where there's a will, there's a way.

- Indeed. This reminds me of a bit about al-Ghazali's critique of naturalists, when he mentioned that the major motives of advancing theories about the world are, in this particular order:
1. Necessity.
2. Bias.
3. Curiosity (or as he calls it, obsession), which he condemns when done at the expense of more important aspects of life, particularly, spiritual aspects.
=> Bias, being the relevant point here, as it is a major motive of examining, expanding & justifying one's own worldview.

In rural areas, it probably is.

- If we account for what happens in rural areas,, we'd be talking about an entirely different world. x-)

It's part of the fabric of the country, and of the psyche of white people in general. Cultural change like that is really, really hard to roll back.

- I understand culture can be persistent, but the scholarly realm, IMO, has to know & do better.

Well, the idea of the Dark Ages is, too some degree, a bit overblown,

- It is, to some degree. But, honestly, Europe in the Middle Ages, compared to the rest of the world was in pretty bad shape. There are some exceptions of course, but that's the general case.

so usually they just claim that it was almost completely fabricated, and that what Dark Age there was can be attributed to the evil Catholic Church, which the noble Protestants rebelled against, bringing the Enlightenment.

- But aren't those 'white' too? How come their 'whiteness' didn't intervene for thousands of years prior to the Enlightenment?!!!!!

Now, how they affirm the Bible, while holding that the people who basically compiled and translated it were corrupt and without authority... that's a trick that I still don't understand.

- This too is a paradox. In fact, I think that's an argument against them, Middle Eastern Christianity (distinctly non-white) was much more enlightened than Western Christianity (the Church, & even the Protestants). The Nestorians formed the first generation of physicians in the newly found Islamic world during the Umayyad period, & they held immense influence in the medical field for centuries later. The Abyssinians & the Copts were much more tolerant than the Catholic Church ever was, to other Christians or non-Christians.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 11:15:18 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 2:39:00 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

The idea percolated not just the vernacular, but the literature of white people. In the present day, we don't realize how utterly revolutionary books like Twain's 'Huckleberry Finn' and Conrad's 'Heart of Darkness' were. It is literally impossible to find, in books before that time period (19th century), an instance of a black man simply being referred to as a 'man', unless gender is being distinguished. The characteristic of race becomes the entire character, and that is immensely dehumanizing, and hits at a subconscious level. So when Twain makes reference to Jim's (a black man) family, and exposes his humanity, that was profound for the time. When Conrad drew a direct, wrenching, and stark comparison between a grieving English widow and a Congolese woman, that sort of thing was simply unheard of. Before that time, black people (and Native Americans) in fiction acted as a symbol for anarchy and destruction, not as actual human characters

- I just remembered a funny anecdote. Years back, I was reading a book written by some orientalist where he narrates some European woman's travel to Arabia & her impressions. One of the things that struck me, keep in mind I wasn't yet that familiar with the history of Racism in Europe, is the fact that the woman while relating her encounter with a chief of an Arab village who happened to be a black slave, was expressing so much disgust & contempt at how the people around him are kissing his hand & being respectful, & about this black man's pride & stature. It was quite the shock.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/28/2016 11:31:24 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
I hope Skep doesn't mind me dropping in, but I have some resources here for those interested in reading more about race, inequality, education, and inclusiveness. Hopefully individuals here will start engaging with the literature but if not, at least it is out there now for a Google search (that is how I initially found DDO). These are just the ones I've been engaging with over the last few weeks. PM me for more.

Privilege and Inequality
'Whose Culture has Capital' by Yosso - Learn about how and why certain cultures and demographics are differentially treated in the US.

'White Privilege: Unpacking the Invisible Knapsack' by McIntosh - An introductory look to the topic of privilege, including how it can be quickly and easily identified.

Race and Racism in the US
'Toward a Critical race theory of Education' by Ladson-Billings - Learn how race plays a role in student outcomes and about education reforms related to this pervasive issue.

'Defining racism: Can We Talk?' by Tatum - A critical look at racial discourse.

'Democracy in Black' by Glaude - A damning look at the education gap and the role of social activism in reforming US race politics.

'Colormute' by Pollock - This is a good piece for those unsure of how and when to discuss racial matters.

Masculinity and Peer Socialization
'Deep Secrets' by Niobe Way - There was some discussion on DDO lately about differential educational outcomes for boys and girls. See what might be behind these differences and how they impact boy's long-term achievement.

Intersection of Class and Race
'There Is No "Race" in the Schoolyard: Color-Blind Ideology in an (Almost) All-White School by Amanda Lewis' - Learn about the way race is approached in a largely homogenous, high SES school, and how a color-blind educational approach impedes students" academic and socioemotional outcomes.

Education, Race, & School Reform
'Tinkering Toward Utopia' by David Tyack - Learn about the origins, evolution, pitfalls, and accomplishments of the US public school system.

'Savage Inequalities' - Learn about the past and present gaps in educational outcomes, access, resources, and teacher perceptions across racial groups.

'The Color of Success' by Conchas - Learn about the myth of the "success story" and why some minority students fail and others succeed, despite similar SES and social circumstances.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

https://i.imgflip.com...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 4:18:17 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
The History of racism really starts with Kane and Abel. Before them everyone was white as God had intended, but Kane milled his brother and God turned him black. (mark of Kane). This mark let people know he was a savage and his savage genes got passed to his descendents. People hated Kane because of his evil actions, and the canaanites (blacks) were cursed for eternity with the mark (blackness).
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 4:25:12 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 4:21:53 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Good post.

I assume that's a reference to my post, so thanks. Always happy to drop some good old bible teaching on somebody
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 4:30:22 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 4:25:12 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/29/2016 4:21:53 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Good post.

I assume that's a reference to my post, so thanks. Always happy to drop some good old bible teaching on somebody

- Were you really referencing the Bible or was that just a troll?
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 4:37:25 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 4:30:22 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 1/29/2016 4:25:12 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 1/29/2016 4:21:53 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Good post.

I assume that's a reference to my post, so thanks. Always happy to drop some good old bible teaching on somebody

- Were you really referencing the Bible or was that just a troll?

The story of Kane and Abel can actually be interpreted that way. Many researchers believe the mark of Kane is a referance to the black skin of the Canaanites. I was also trolling, but I keep a grain of truth in everything.
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 4:40:01 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 4:37:25 AM, Wylted wrote:

The story of Kane and Abel can actually be interpreted that way. Many researchers believe the mark of Kane is a reference to the black skin of the Canaanites.

- Cannane weren't black!

I was also trolling, but I keep a grain of truth in everything.

- OK. It seemed like a crazy thing though.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 5:38:43 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 4:21:53 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
Good post.

Thanks =)
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,278
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/29/2016 5:54:12 PM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/28/2016 6:50:32 AM, Yassine wrote:
so usually they just claim that it was almost completely fabricated, and that what Dark Age there was can be attributed to the evil Catholic Church, which the noble Protestants rebelled against, bringing the Enlightenment.

- But aren't those 'white' too? How come their 'whiteness' didn't intervene for thousands of years prior to the Enlightenment?!!!!!

Actually, post-Reformation there was a huge amount of severely anti-Catholic sentiment in both America and Northern Europe. Irish and Italian immigrants had a really hard time in America because of this, and one of the first Ursuline convents in Massachusetts was actually burned down by what amounted to an anti-Catholic hate mob. Racism existed in Europe, but other conflicts over religion and nationality ended up being much more potent. In America, racism enjoyed its particular virulence because it acted as a social bonding mechanism when overcoming these imported conflicts.

Protestants are also considered more 'purely' white; just look at their conflicts (Calvinists in La Rochelle vs. a Medici Queen, England vs. Spain, the Netherlands vs. Spain, Germany vs. Rome). Pretty much the only strongly Catholic northern European countries were Austria, Poland (though there was more religious freedom there), and Ireland. Most of them were people of a Mediterranean complexion and culture which people like the British looked down on as passionate and barbarous (the famous British reserve, German discipline, and Calvinist work ethic contrast markedly from typical southern European cultures.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
Posts: 2,617
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
1/30/2016 4:13:36 AM
Posted: 10 months ago
At 1/29/2016 5:54:12 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

Actually, post-Reformation there was a huge amount of severely anti-Catholic sentiment in both America and Northern Europe. Irish and Italian immigrants had a really hard time in America because of this, and one of the first Ursuline convents in Massachusetts was actually burned down by what amounted to an anti-Catholic hate mob.

- What's up with the Catholic Church & all the blood-shed?! I recently read some literature about the view of past Catholic doctors of Muslims ; basically, a muslim, just by being Muslim is an abomination to God & shedding his blood, even a child, is divine gratification. They said similar things about Jews. This is horrifying!

Racism existed in Europe, but other conflicts over religion and nationality ended up being much more potent. In America, racism enjoyed its particular virulence because it acted as a social bonding mechanism when overcoming these imported conflicts.

- I understand this, but it doesn't warrant any worth for 'whiteness'. I think it has more to do with a global amnesia, where the whites attributed everything they took from others, which was substantial, to themselves & built on it, giving them the delusion that it was them the enlightened ones all along, & this attitude is still persisting to this very day, especially in terms of Morality!

Protestants are also considered more 'purely' white; just look at their conflicts (Calvinists in La Rochelle vs. a Medici Queen, England vs. Spain, the Netherlands vs. Spain, Germany vs. Rome). Pretty much the only strongly Catholic northern European countries were Austria, Poland (though there was more religious freedom there),

- Yeah, Lithuania just recently celebrated its 500 years of tolerance with Muslims. They had their bad moments, but surprisingly, they were mostly tolerant with the Tatars. In contrast, these last 500 years have seen Muslims & Jews regularly being purged from Europe, from Spain to Russia. I am still not too familiar with the teachings & circumstances of European Christian denominations, I don't yet understand how concurrent yet different denominations could stand on opposite sides of the spectrum.

and Ireland. Most of them were people of a Mediterranean complexion and culture which people like the British looked down on as passionate and barbarous (the famous British reserve, German discipline, and Calvinist work ethic contrast markedly from typical southern European cultures.

- The irony! Few centuries back they were just as barbarous or worse.
Current Debates:

Islam is not a religion of peace vs. @ Lutonator:
* http://www.debate.org...