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Respect Due Or Earned?

Yassine
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2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
- Coming from a radically different worldview, I always find myself struggling with understanding & sorting new unfamiliar western born views. One particular view on Respect never sat well with me, that is, the widely accepted belief that Respect is earned, not given. In my worldview, Respect is, in principal, always due, for humanity itself warrants basic dignity, thus an a-priori due respect. Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.

=> Which of the two views do you think should be the case? What is your personal view on Respect? Why?

Thank you.
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/14/2016 3:55:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I agree with you. You should respect others even if they haven't done anything particularly admirable to warrant your respect. Respect is an important, basic virtue, and how much genuine respect you're willing to show towards others is a pretty good measure of how good or kind of person you are. I don't think Westerners would disagree...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

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Nerva
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2/14/2016 3:58:18 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I would argue that respect being due or being earned is almost the same. If you have a position that is respectable, than that respect is due because you earned it. However, you cannot be blindly respected unless you are an individual who is knowledgeable and has has character, conviction, and rationale.
Don't get on my nerva.
Df0512
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2/14/2016 4:13:15 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Respect is always earned. If someone is due respect, it is because they may have already earned it. You just may not be aware. That is why I try to respect all senior citizens because more then likely they have been through something worth respecting.
Vox_Veritas
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2/14/2016 4:22:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think that there are different kinds of respect. Some kinds are due and other kinds are earned.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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2/14/2016 12:00:47 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
So do you Westerners disagree with the notion that unconditional respect for others is a virtue?
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

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Wylted
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2/14/2016 2:43:46 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
I agree that respect should be done by default. I'm from the south though. The Yankees on this site are probably dick s. Seriously when you go to the south everyone is polkte and hospitable. You can't even drive down the street in New York or New Hersey without somebody screaming "fvck you" at you, at some point.

I think there is a video of some girl dloating around youtube who literally is just going for a stroll, and is sexually harassed by about 12 men. Most of the men she accused of harassment merely said hello, and she didn't say it back, so she herself is rude, but there were still plenty of rude men.
Wylted
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2/14/2016 2:45:01 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 12:00:47 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
So do you Westerners disagree with the notion that unconditional respect for others is a virtue?

In the South we agree. Read the previous post.
tajshar2k
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2/14/2016 3:18:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Coming from a radically different worldview, I always find myself struggling with understanding & sorting new unfamiliar western born views. One particular view on Respect never sat well with me, that is, the widely accepted belief that Respect is earned, not given. In my worldview, Respect is, in principal, always due, for humanity itself warrants basic dignity, thus an a-priori due respect. Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.


=> Which of the two views do you think should be the case? What is your personal view on Respect? Why?

Thank you.

Depends on the kind of respect you are talking about.
"In Guns We Trust" Tajshar2k
Vox_Veritas
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2/14/2016 7:20:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Whenever all forms of respect are unconditional, though, this can also take the joy out of lots of stuff. There are some things in life that men do in order to receive a very rare kind of respect for a very rare kind of accomplishment.
For example, some people work very hard so that they can be respected for being a "hard worker". Whenever you cannot distinguish yourself in this way because everyone is treated like they're a hard worker, that just kills it, right?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/14/2016 7:23:27 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Coming from a radically different worldview, I always find myself struggling with understanding & sorting new unfamiliar western born views. One particular view on Respect never sat well with me, that is, the widely accepted belief that Respect is earned, not given. In my worldview, Respect is, in principal, always due, for humanity itself warrants basic dignity, thus an a-priori due respect. Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.


=> Which of the two views do you think should be the case? What is your personal view on Respect? Why?

Thank you.

Respect Due and Respect Earned go hand-in-hand. Respect is due to those who deserve it. Even you say so:

At 2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM, Yassine wrote:
Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.

They have, through dignified behavior, earned respect, and so it is due to them.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

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Vox_Veritas
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2/14/2016 7:23:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
That is, respect is sweetest when rare.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/14/2016 7:26:04 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 7:20:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Whenever all forms of respect are unconditional, though, this can also take the joy out of lots of stuff. There are some things in life that men do in order to receive a very rare kind of respect for a very rare kind of accomplishment.
For example, some people work very hard so that they can be respected for being a "hard worker". Whenever you cannot distinguish yourself in this way because everyone is treated like they're a hard worker, that just kills it, right?

tl;dr: Respect is best when most other people cannot claim the same respect; when it is uncommon.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
The-Voice-of-Truth
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2/14/2016 7:26:20 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 7:23:59 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
That is, respect is sweetest when rare.

Oh, well then.
Suh dude

"Because we all know who the most important snowflake in the wasteland is... It's YOU, champ! You're a special snowflake." -Vaarka, 01:30 in the hangouts

"Screw laying siege to Korea. That usually takes an hour or so." -Vaarka

"Crap, what is my religion again?" -Vaarka

I'm Rick Harrison and this is my pawn shop. I work here with my old man and my son, Big Hoss, and in 23 years I've learned one thing. You never know what is gonna come through that door.
Skepsikyma
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2/14/2016 11:58:03 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 2:43:46 PM, Wylted wrote:
I agree that respect should be done by default. I'm from the south though. The Yankees on this site are probably dick s. Seriously when you go to the south everyone is polkte and hospitable. You can't even drive down the street in New York or New Hersey without somebody screaming "fvck you" at you, at some point.

I think there is a video of some girl dloating around youtube who literally is just going for a stroll, and is sexually harassed by about 12 men. Most of the men she accused of harassment merely said hello, and she didn't say it back, so she herself is rude, but there were still plenty of rude men.

As a Yankee, this is very true. The culture is incredibly 'WASPy'. In Philadelphia, you just walk by without making eye contact on the street. It's an icy world, and any interaction which people do have consists of robotic courtesy until the initial barriers are broken down. It's a little different in the country, where Pennsylvania Dutch and Quaker cultural habits still persist into the present day, but the city and suburbs are cold, inhospitable places.

I've been to the South, and I cannot deny that the change is refreshing. I always hate it when northerners stereotype southerners as 'hateful', because I've found that the opposite is true: southerners are warm, whereas northerners are indifferent (or, in NYC/Boston, hostile). When it comes to racism, southern novelists also tackle the subject much more honestly, whereas northerners are more distant and hypocritical. Northerners deny their racism and project it onto the south, southerners grapple with it in ways which are much more productive in the end. You find more humanized black characters in southern novels then you ever will in ones informed by Yankee sensibilities.

In conclusion, while I like Philadelphia, I'd take Charleston and Savannah over NYC and Boston any day.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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2/15/2016 12:00:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Coming from a radically different worldview, I always find myself struggling with understanding & sorting new unfamiliar western born views. One particular view on Respect never sat well with me, that is, the widely accepted belief that Respect is earned, not given. In my worldview, Respect is, in principal, always due, for humanity itself warrants basic dignity, thus an a-priori due respect. Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.


=> Which of the two views do you think should be the case? What is your personal view on Respect? Why?

Thank you.

In my culture, courtesy is given, respect is earned. So you treat people well in the vast majority of cases regardless of whether you respect them or not, and once you do respect and trust them then you drop your guard and 'open up'. It's normally called 'WASP' culture (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant).
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:13:59 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 3:55:16 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I agree with you. You should respect others even if they haven't done anything particularly admirable to warrant your respect. Respect is an important, basic virtue, and how much genuine respect you're willing to show towards others is a pretty good measure of how good or kind of person you are. I don't think Westerners would disagree...

- Which tradition do you come from?
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:17:10 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 3:58:18 AM, Nerva wrote:
I would argue that respect being due or being earned is almost the same.

- No! In principal, they are opposites. Either, in principal, one has a right to be respected, or not.

If you have a position that is respectable, than that respect is due because you earned it.

- What of just being a human being?

However, you cannot be blindly respected unless you are an individual who is knowledgeable and has has character, conviction, and rationale.

- Alright. So, you postulate that respect is contingent on judgement of apparent character?
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:20:17 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 4:13:15 AM, Df0512 wrote:
Respect is always earned.

- Why?

If someone is due respect, it is because they may have already earned it.

- You mean by being human beings, or by some other means?

You just may not be aware.

- If you're not aware, how do you know they've earned it! This looks self-defeating.

That is why I try to respect all senior citizens because more then likely they have been through something worth respecting.

- Surely some did things which might warrant disrespect too!
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:20:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 4:22:34 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
I think that there are different kinds of respect. Some kinds are due and other kinds are earned.

- Elaborate.
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:24:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 2:43:46 PM, Wylted wrote:
I agree that respect should be done by default. I'm from the south though. The Yankees on this site are probably dick s. Seriously when you go to the south everyone is polkte and hospitable.

- The kind of respect I was referring to goes beyond just being polite. It's a genuine recognition/esteem for the other. Do you think this should be given by default too?

You can't even drive down the street in New York or New Hersey without somebody screaming "fvck you" at you, at some point.

- It seems you had some bad experiences down there!

I think there is a video of some girl dloating around youtube who literally is just going for a stroll, and is sexually harassed by about 12 men. Most of the men she accused of harassment merely said hello, and she didn't say it back, so she herself is rude, but there were still plenty of rude men.

- Ought/Is issue here...
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:24:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 3:18:29 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 2/14/2016 2:37:59 AM, Yassine wrote:
- Coming from a radically different worldview, I always find myself struggling with understanding & sorting new unfamiliar western born views. One particular view on Respect never sat well with me, that is, the widely accepted belief that Respect is earned, not given. In my worldview, Respect is, in principal, always due, for humanity itself warrants basic dignity, thus an a-priori due respect. Only when one displays undignified behaviour, would one lose said due, thus, having to earn it otherwise. One who displays dignified behaviour, particularly, deserves respect.


=> Which of the two views do you think should be the case? What is your personal view on Respect? Why?

Thank you.

Depends on the kind of respect you are talking about.

- Elaborate.
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:30:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 7:20:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

Whenever all forms of respect are unconditional, though, this can also take the joy out of lots of stuff. There are some things in life that men do in order to receive a very rare kind of respect for a very rare kind of accomplishment.
For example, some people work very hard so that they can be respected for being a "hard worker". Whenever you cannot distinguish yourself in this way because everyone is treated like they're a hard worker, that just kills it, right?

- So, you're suggesting respect is hierarchal, the higher the accomplishments, the higher the warranted respect? Or, are you suggesting respect is horizontal, different accomplishments warrant different kinds of respect? In what sense does this respect manifest itself differently?
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Wylted
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2/15/2016 12:31:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:24:29 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/14/2016 2:43:46 PM, Wylted wrote:
I agree that respect should be done by default. I'm from the south though. The Yankees on this site are probably dick s. Seriously when you go to the south everyone is polkte and hospitable.

- The kind of respect I was referring to goes beyond just being polite. It's a genuine recognition/esteem for the other. Do you think this should be given by default too?

I'm not even sure what you mean.

You can't even drive down the street in New York or New Hersey without somebody screaming "fvck you" at you, at some point.

- It seems you had some bad experiences down there!

It's just the culture of the northern part of the U.S.

I think there is a video of some girl dloating around youtube who literally is just going for a stroll, and is sexually harassed by about 12 men. Most of the men she accused of harassment merely said hello, and she didn't say it back, so she herself is rude, but there were still plenty of rude men.

- Ought/Is issue here...
Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:34:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/14/2016 7:23:27 PM, The-Voice-of-Truth wrote:

Respect Due and Respect Earned go hand-in-hand.

- No. In principal, they are mutually exclusive!

Respect is due to those who deserve it. Even you say so:

- I said respect is due to all people, in principal, unless otherwise called for.

They have, through dignified behavior, earned respect, and so it is due to them.

- What of the others?
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:41:43 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:31:48 AM, Wylted wrote:

I'm not even sure what you mean.

- I don't know what exactly respect entails in your culture, but in my worldview, respect ('Ihtiram' in Arabic) entails inviolability, that is a recognition of the other's equal & dignified standing, & commitment/conformity to said recognition. I don't mean by respect, politeness or courtesy or etiquette, I mean it in the sense that involves a genuine humility & esteem.

It's just the culture of the northern part of the U.S.

- Your line of reasoning here rests on generalisations, so I really can't take your word for it.
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Vox_Veritas
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2/15/2016 12:59:26 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:30:05 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/14/2016 7:20:00 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

Whenever all forms of respect are unconditional, though, this can also take the joy out of lots of stuff. There are some things in life that men do in order to receive a very rare kind of respect for a very rare kind of accomplishment.
For example, some people work very hard so that they can be respected for being a "hard worker". Whenever you cannot distinguish yourself in this way because everyone is treated like they're a hard worker, that just kills it, right?

- So, you're suggesting respect is hierarchal, the higher the accomplishments, the higher the warranted respect? Or, are you suggesting respect is horizontal, different accomplishments warrant different kinds of respect? In what sense does this respect manifest itself differently?

Different accomplishments warrant different kinds of respect. Since people are good at different fields, this kind of diversity for respect allows most people to be "the best" at one field while not generally focusing on their deficiencies in other fields. It allows most people to feel good about themselves about something.
To clarify I believe that everyone is due a certain kind of "base" respect regardless of their accomplishments (or lack thereof).
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Yassine
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2/15/2016 12:59:37 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:00:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

In my culture, courtesy is given, respect is earned.

- What is the difference, according to you?

So you treat people well in the vast majority of cases regardless of whether you respect them or not, and once you do respect and trust them then you drop your guard and 'open up'. It's normally called 'WASP' culture (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant).

- In Arabic, respect is 'Ihtiram', which comes from the root 'hurma' meaning: inviolability. That's why a woman in the eastern Arab culture is referred to as 'hurma', or a group of them as 'hareem'. The derivative 'Ihtiram', thus, means: 'bringing about inviolability'. To put things into perspective, pre-Islamic Arabs didn't have such concept of respect, it actually came much later with Sufism, & then made its way into Futuwwa ('Chivalry'), which was then inherited by the Europeans. The reason why Sufism here is relevant is because their understanding of respect reflects deeply their understanding of human virtues. Respect, in their eyes, should correspond to a state where one sees everyone as equally worthy & equally sanctified ; a state where one's humility encompasses all creatures, & one's arrogance is completely abolished ; a state where one is aware of one's insignificance & other's significance ; ultimately, a state of unity of creation. Of course, all these ideal states are not represented in the ordinary understanding of respect, but they are at its root.
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Yassine
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2/15/2016 1:01:39 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:59:26 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:

Different accomplishments warrant different kinds of respect. Since people are good at different fields, this kind of diversity for respect allows most people to be "the best" at one field while not generally focusing on their deficiencies in other fields.

- What is different about these different kinds of respect then?

It allows most people to feel good about themselves about something.

- What does this respect look like? How does it manifest? What does it entail?

To clarify I believe that everyone is due a certain kind of "base" respect regardless of their accomplishments (or lack thereof).

- Same questions as above.
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Skepsikyma
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2/15/2016 1:06:10 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/15/2016 12:59:37 AM, Yassine wrote:
At 2/15/2016 12:00:20 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:

In my culture, courtesy is given, respect is earned.

- What is the difference, according to you?

Courtesy is a set of behaviors. Respect is a belief about someone's virtue. Essentially, the higher someones virtue, the more they are to be respected. You should treat people whom you respect better, but here is a floor to how bad you can treat someone. That floor is courtesy. Even if you don't respect someone, you shouldn't treat them deplorably, but as another fellow human being of basic worth. There are exception in any society (heinous criminals being the most universal examples), but that's the 'rule of thumb.'

So you treat people well in the vast majority of cases regardless of whether you respect them or not, and once you do respect and trust them then you drop your guard and 'open up'. It's normally called 'WASP' culture (White Anglo-Saxon Protestant).

- In Arabic, respect is 'Ihtiram', which comes from the root 'hurma' meaning: inviolability. That's why a woman in the eastern Arab culture is referred to as 'hurma', or a group of them as 'hareem'. The derivative 'Ihtiram', thus, means: 'bringing about inviolability'. To put things into perspective, pre-Islamic Arabs didn't have such concept of respect, it actually came much later with Sufism, & then made its way into Futuwwa ('Chivalry'), which was then inherited by the Europeans. The reason why Sufism here is relevant is because their understanding of respect reflects deeply their understanding of human virtues. Respect, in their eyes, should correspond to a state where one sees everyone as equally worthy & equally sanctified ; a state where one's humility encompasses all creatures, & one's arrogance is completely abolished ; a state where one is aware of one's insignificance & other's significance ; ultimately, a state of unity of creation. Of course, all these ideal states are not represented in the ordinary understanding of respect, but they are at its root.

That seems like the basis of courtesy, though in modern times it has become a bit... deformed.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -