Total Posts:13|Showing Posts:1-13
Jump to topic:

An essay on Fundamentalism

Rockylightning
Posts: 2,862
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2010 5:10:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Fundamentalism (of any kind) troubles me. The world is too big and too intricate to conform to our ideas of what it should be like. In my experience I've found that most fundamentalists aren't so much attached to their professed ideologies as they are to the way in which these ideologies try to make sense of a confusing world. But the world is confusing, and just because we invent myths and theories to explain away the chaos we're still going to live in a world that's older and more complicated than we'll ever understand. So many religious and political and scientific and social systems fail in that they try to impose a rigid structure onto what is an inherently ambiguous world. I'm not suggesting that we stop trying to understand things. Trying to understand the world can be fun and, at times, helpful. But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding, then maybe our belief systems will make more sense and end up causing less suffering
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe. Hence, they turn not to reason, but to faith, be it in God or the Majority or the Proletariat or The Race.

You have to believe something or die. The question is whether you will introduce it by means of reason, and live the best you can, or be "Humble," and surrender to whatever despot makes one of the above sound prettiest. Or something in between, which means surrender to whatever despot is most boring.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
charleslb
Posts: 4,740
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2010 7:24:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Reply to Rockylightning

You make some intelligent points here. I would just add that people's investment in their ideologies is often powered by their egos. Certain ideologies, and believing that one's ideology is it, is the be all and end all of man's quest for truth and enlightenment can do nice things for the ole ego. Yes, the fierceness with which some people hew to ideological positions strongly indicates that they have an emotional investment in them. One that they of course don't acknowledge to themselves and which sometimes unconsciously drives ideologues to extremes.

Ideologies can also be the means by which people seek to dominate the culture and politics of their society. I.e., the will to power also infuses itself into people's passion for their ideology, sometimes amplifying it to dangerous extremes.

Ideology isn't a purely intellectual thing, isn't purely the result of man's desire to free himself from the stress of confusion about his world. No, it's not always that innocent, it's often the product of our egoistic and biological drives to enjoy a sense of superiority and a measure of social dominance.
Yo, all of my subliterate conservative criticasters who find perusing and processing the sesquipedalian verbiage of my posts to be such a bothersome brain-taxing chore, I have a new nickname for you. Henceforth you shall be known as Pooh Bears. No, not for the obvious apt reasons, i.e., not because you're full of pooh, and not because of your ursine irritability. Rather, you put me in mind of an A.A. Milne quote, "I am a Bear of Very Little Brain, and long words bother me". Love ya, Pooh Bears.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2010 11:02:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Dominating some poor wittle capitalists eh Marxy?
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
GeoLaureate8
Posts: 12,252
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/4/2010 11:05:25 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe.

False.
"We must raise the standard of the Old, free, decentralized, and strictly limited Republic."
-- Murray Rothbard

"The worst thing that can happen to a good cause is, not to be skillfully attacked, but to be ineptly defended."
-- Frederic Bastiat
innomen
Posts: 10,052
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 5:35:22 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 7:24:45 PM, charleslb wrote:
Reply to Rockylightning

You make some intelligent points here. I would just add that people's investment in their ideologies is often powered by their egos. Certain ideologies, and believing that one's ideology is it, is the be all and end all of man's quest for truth and enlightenment can do nice things for the ole ego. Yes, the fierceness with which some people hew to ideological positions strongly indicates that they have an emotional investment in them. One that they of course don't acknowledge to themselves and which sometimes unconsciously drives ideologues to extremes.

Ideologies can also be the means by which people seek to dominate the culture and politics of their society. I.e., the will to power also infuses itself into people's passion for their ideology, sometimes amplifying it to dangerous extremes.

Ideology isn't a purely intellectual thing, isn't purely the result of man's desire to free himself from the stress of confusion about his world. No, it's not always that innocent, it's often the product of our egoistic and biological drives to enjoy a sense of superiority and a measure of social dominance.

From what i have read of your posts, which actually isn't much compared to the volumes of rhetoric you have spewed forth, this seems to apply to you quite nicely.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 9:35:48 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe. Hence, they turn not to reason, but to faith, be it in God or the Majority or the Proletariat or The Race or yourself.
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 9:51:31 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 9:35:48 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe. Hence, they turn not to reason, but to faith, be it in God or the Majority or the Proletariat or The Race or yourself.

You needn't have faith when dealing with oneself. One can access one's own rational faculties just fine. In fact, an individual human is the only creature that even has such faculties.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Zetsubou
Posts: 4,933
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 10:05:53 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 9:51:31 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/5/2010 9:35:48 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe. Hence, they turn not to reason, but to faith, be it in God or the Majority or the Proletariat or The Race or yourself.

You needn't have faith when dealing with oneself. One can access one's own rational faculties just fine. In fact, an individual human is the only creature that even has such faculties.
But you can't access the rational faculties of the majority or the proletariat or the race without faith?
'sup DDO -- july 2013
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 5:05:24 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/5/2010 10:05:53 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/5/2010 9:51:31 AM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
At 11/5/2010 9:35:48 AM, Zetsubou wrote:
At 11/4/2010 6:42:43 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
But if we base our belief systems on the humble assumption that the complexities of the world are ontologically beyond our understanding,
That is an absolute, and one all mystics believe. Hence, they turn not to reason, but to faith, be it in God or the Majority or the Proletariat or The Race or yourself.

You needn't have faith when dealing with oneself. One can access one's own rational faculties just fine. In fact, an individual human is the only creature that even has such faculties.
But you can't access the rational faculties of the majority or the proletariat or the race without faith?

None of those things qua those things have such faculties. individual rational faculties differ. They don't fuse together like jello. and I can't access those of any other person, at least directly. I can make a guess inductively on a case by case basis and prepare to be wrong about what they think, or ask them individually and prepare to be lied to, or have faith that all the others think like the Fuhrer, but that's about the range of my options.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
tvellalott
Posts: 10,864
Add as Friend
Challenge to a Debate
Send a Message
11/5/2010 9:06:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The danger is the ideology of which that fundamentalism is the target.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
Using mafia tactics in real-life: http://www.debate.org...
6 years of DDO: http://www.debate.org...