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The problem I have with my 'privilege'

tvellalott
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2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

I hope this definition will suffice.

My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

I am missing the most important privilege of all. The one that trumps every other privilege.

Yep, I'm poor. I earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than the 'average' wage here in Australia. My parents are poor too. Neither has any savings, let alone property or assets. That their fault and I have the ability to do whatever I want. However, even coming from a middle class background is a privilege over me.

On the other hand, we all share a very important privilege.
We live in the first world.

That means that while there are regressive attitudes aplenty (which I'm sure we can all argee aren't all being perpetrated by us white dudes) you're living in a very, very progressive society. People can't get away with carrying on like an idiot the way they could even 10 years ago. If someone goes on a racist rant on the train HERE (in Australia), they get filmed, named and shamed on social media and often make headline news. If a man is accused of being a rapist, their career is put on hold and their whole lives can be destroyed. Being a rapist is literally the worst thing a man can be called.

I would argue that the PC culture has gone to far.

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?
Are different privileges more privileged than others?
Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?
Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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Maikuru
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2/23/2016 5:01:00 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

Yahtzee!

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Sure, your parental SES and citizenship can be privileges insofar as they confer upon you the advantages you mentioned earlier. These advantages will naturally be differentially useful to you depending on your circumstances. For example, you can imagine a parent's SES being highly relevant for a child in terms of their access to better schools, educational resources, outside-of-school support, etc., but less relevant later in life.

Are different privileges more privileged than others?
Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?

I'd say so. There's a famous sociological anecdote about a teacher who had a discussion with his/her white students about the concept of privilege, where the students largely denied its existence. That said, when asked how much money it would take for them to be turned black for the rest of their lives, the average amount they listed was something in the millions or some crazy figure. Different advantages are naturally differentially useful.

Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

People always go too far with things; I know I've seen and heard some pretty out there statements. Ignoring the extremes, though, the answer probably depends on who you ask. If you are regularly being made to feel guilty and responsible for the hardships of others, you probably would think things have gone too far. Alternatively, if you are regularly the target of discrimination and prejudice, you might not think it's gone far enough. It's all a perspective game, which is why inclusion and equity requires empathy and perspective-taking.
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themohawkninja
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2/23/2016 5:11:44 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

I hope this definition will suffice.

Makes enough sense.


My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

A white straight man? Man, you are the SJW Devil.

I am missing the most important privilege of all. The one that trumps every other privilege.

Yep, I'm poor. I earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than the 'average' wage here in Australia. My parents are poor too. Neither has any savings, let alone property or assets. That their fault and I have the ability to do whatever I want. However, even coming from a middle class background is a privilege over me.

Classism man. Have you read the Communist Manifeto? It's the SJW's Bible.


On the other hand, we all share a very important privilege.
We live in the first world.

That means that while there are regressive attitudes aplenty (which I'm sure we can all argee aren't all being perpetrated by us white dudes) you're living in a very, very progressive society. People can't get away with carrying on like an idiot the way they could even 10 years ago. If someone goes on a racist rant on the train HERE (in Australia), they get filmed, named and shamed on social media and often make headline news. If a man is accused of being a rapist, their career is put on hold and their whole lives can be destroyed. Being a rapist is literally the worst thing a man can be called.

Yes, and here in America where being guilty of rape has more stuff tacted on to it (i.e. Megan's law, and other such watch lists) then murder, you might as well just kill her instead. Seriously, how messed up is that?


I would argue that the PC culture has gone to far.

I'm 20, so I have lived my whole life inside PC culture, and I was against it, the instant I learned the definition.


Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?

It can be.

Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Given that certain legal systems in certain countries are more advantageous to their citizens then others, I would say yes.

Are different privileges more privileged than others?

Give that your definition of privilege hold multiple potential qualities (that is a special right OR advantage OR immunity granted), if a privilege held multiple of these characteristics, it could be held above others that only had one characteristic.

Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?

Yes, because Affirmative Action.

Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

Given that the patron saint of the third-wave feminist movement, Anita Sarkeesian, is now on Twitter's "Trust and Safety Council" (read Censorship Bureau), yeah, I'd say so.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
Greyparrot
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2/23/2016 8:13:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
no
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?
yes
Are different privileges more privileged than others?
yes
Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?
yes
Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?
shutup racist/rapist
PetersSmith
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2/23/2016 9:35:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Privilege: a special right, advantage, or immunity granted or available only to a particular person or group.

I hope this definition will suffice.

My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

I am missing the most important privilege of all. The one that trumps every other privilege.

Yep, I'm poor. I earn SIGNIFICANTLY less than the 'average' wage here in Australia. My parents are poor too. Neither has any savings, let alone property or assets. That their fault and I have the ability to do whatever I want. However, even coming from a middle class background is a privilege over me.

On the other hand, we all share a very important privilege.
We live in the first world.

That means that while there are regressive attitudes aplenty (which I'm sure we can all argee aren't all being perpetrated by us white dudes) you're living in a very, very progressive society. People can't get away with carrying on like an idiot the way they could even 10 years ago. If someone goes on a racist rant on the train HERE (in Australia), they get filmed, named and shamed on social media and often make headline news. If a man is accused of being a rapist, their career is put on hold and their whole lives can be destroyed. Being a rapist is literally the worst thing a man can be called.

I would argue that the PC culture has gone to far.

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?
Are different privileges more privileged than others?
Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?
Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

You filthy cis white male. Check your privilege.
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tvellalott
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2/23/2016 10:32:06 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
OK, so here's my point and the problem I have with my privilege.

P1) Privilege can come from a variety of factors

As we've now discussed.

P2) Different factors of privilege come with different levels of privilege

As we've now discussed.

P3) It is possible to have greater privilege than a white male and be neither white, nor male.

This might be contentious, I'm not really sure. Certainly some of these people I see screeching on YouTube about the wage gap wouldn't accept this premise. Let's talk about it. The most over-the-top examples of privileged black woman I can think of are Oprah and Michelle Obama. Both clearly more privileged than anyone on this site, despite being neither white nor male.

C: Race and gender, while relevant, are not the defining factors of ones privilege.

I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.
(I can't speak for the ugly, short white dudes though. I feel like they probably don't have as much white male privilege as I do.)
The problem I have is that there a whole bunch of us white guys out here, hundreds of millions of us, and wealth is how we determine who is more privileged among us. It is those factors, wealth and class that tower over every other and make other types of privilege less relevant. In the first world, if you're rich, it doesn't matter if you're an Aboriginal Australian transgender weeaboo, platypus otherkin. If you're poor, you're probably less fvcked if you're white.

And I'll leave it at that for the minute.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

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tvellalott
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2/23/2016 11:01:09 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 5:01:00 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Here's my main points that I want to discuss:

Are different privileges more privileged than others?
Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?

I'd say so. There's a famous sociological anecdote about a teacher who had a discussion with his/her white students about the concept of privilege, where the students largely denied its existence. That said, when asked how much money it would take for them to be turned black for the rest of their lives, the average amount they listed was something in the millions or some crazy figure. Different advantages are naturally differentially useful.

I want to ask your opinion on a specific example. The Mizzou hunger strikes and this guy... *checks name* Jonathan Butler. Now, as far as I can tell, this entire schmozzle is based on an isolated incident (some dude yelled nigg3r out the window of his pickup truck) and THIS GUY, this wanker with a rich daddy, seized the opportunity to cover himself in glory despite having lived in an Middle/Upper Class bubble his whole life. I feel like he couldn't really even understand the privilege white people have over black people, because he has that same privilege, if not more.

Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

People always go too far with things; I know I've seen and heard some pretty out there statements. Ignoring the extremes, though, the answer probably depends on who you ask. If you are regularly being made to feel guilty and responsible for the hardships of others, you probably would think things have gone too far. Alternatively, if you are regularly the target of discrimination and prejudice, you might not think it's gone far enough. It's all a perspective game, which is why inclusion and equity requires empathy and perspective-taking.

I think the problem then, is the term 'gone too far'. I think I'll rephrase the question.
Is PC culture heading in the right direction?
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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Skepsikyma
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2/24/2016 12:30:52 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 5:01:00 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

Yahtzee!

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Sure, your parental SES and citizenship can be privileges insofar as they confer upon you the advantages you mentioned earlier. These advantages will naturally be differentially useful to you depending on your circumstances. For example, you can imagine a parent's SES being highly relevant for a child in terms of their access to better schools, educational resources, outside-of-school support, etc., but less relevant later in life.

I think that poverty has a profound effect on someone's entire life, because it also involves a bunch of learned behaviors. The most important of these is probably an unhealthy relationship with money. A person raised in comfort or affluence sees money as a tool to make more money and to advance their relative position in society. Buy some land? Flip a house? Buy some stock? Sure, if the risk outweighs the reward. For someone with a comfortable cushion, risk isn't scary if you win more often then you lose in the long run.

However, when you grow up in poverty, where every paycheck represents your food and shelter for the week, risk is seen as incredibly dangerous because your well-being is directly threatened if that risk doesn't pan out. When the times get rougher for the comfortable or affluent they invest in various ways in order to dig them out of a hole. When things get rough for the impoverished, they cling to whatever they have in the desperate hopes that it won't be taken from them, and often fail to address the problem.

Eventually, this sort of risk aversion becomes a learned behavior passed down from parent to a child, an a potent part of the 'culture of poverty' which is reinforced by the facts of people's existence. It makes climbing out of poverty very difficult, because the way that poor and rich people relate to money (sustenance vs tool) is often markedly different.

'Using data from the Ethiopian highlands we find that depending on the expected payoff and range, one-third to two-thirds of households are severely or extremely risk averse. Looking deeper, we disaggregate risk averting behavior and its determinants and find that a highly inter-related set of factors serve to dramatically increase household risk aversion. For example, households that stand to lose as well as gain are systematically - and empirically significantly - much more risk averse than households playing gains-only games. This suggests that efforts to increase rural incomes may face substantial resistance in poor countries when possible losses are involved. We also find significant differences in risk averting behavior based on wealth, which suggests that as assets increase households accept more risk in exchange for higher expected returns. Perhaps independent of wealth effects, we also find evidence of path dependence in which even if probabilities of success are constant past failures increase risk aversion in subsequent games.'
http://www.efdinitiative.org...
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Skepsikyma
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2/24/2016 12:37:41 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?

Definitely. It's one of the most influential ones. The most crippling forms of oppression usually involve an intersection with poverty.

Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Yes, because it literally affords legal and practical privileges.

Are different privileges more privileged than others?

Yeah, but it needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis to do that. And it isn't really productive to do so on an individual level.

Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?

In certain social groups, yeah. But that's been true throughout all of history. People form in-groups, which then target out-groups. Uniting the out-group against the in-group is just a power shift, not a paradigm change.

Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

Absolutely. Censorship of any port is unequivocally shortsighted and stupid, because it both restricts what information you have access to, while simultaneously making a rod for your own back. I love how people think 'oh, let's just force them to stop talking' is somehow a new development in political thought -.-

Hint: if you are actually subversive against the prevailing social order, giving oppressive institutions the power to repress speech is pretty fvcking dumb.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
themohawkninja
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2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 10:32:06 PM, tvellalott wrote:
OK, so here's my point and the problem I have with my privilege.

P1) Privilege can come from a variety of factors

As we've now discussed.

P2) Different factors of privilege come with different levels of privilege

As we've now discussed.

P3) It is possible to have greater privilege than a white male and be neither white, nor male.

This might be contentious, I'm not really sure. Certainly some of these people I see screeching on YouTube about the wage gap wouldn't accept this premise. Let's talk about it. The most over-the-top examples of privileged black woman I can think of are Oprah and Michelle Obama. Both clearly more privileged than anyone on this site, despite being neither white nor male.

I'm just going to throw the term "Affirmative Action" out there. By your definition of privilege, a middle class ethnic minority may be more privileged than a middle class white person, because of this wonderful policy....


C: Race and gender, while relevant, are not the defining factors of ones privilege.


In the western world, yes, but in some places this may not be the case.


I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.

I'm going to challenge that actually, because Affirmative Action. You are disadvantaged because you are a white man. Being handsome helps, but I don't see how being tall or straight does in this context.

(I can't speak for the ugly, short white dudes though. I feel like they probably don't have as much white male privilege as I do.)

High charisma would be a privilege.

The problem I have is that there a whole bunch of us white guys out here, hundreds of millions of us, and wealth is how we determine who is more privileged among us. It is those factors, wealth and class that tower over every other and make other types of privilege less relevant. In the first world, if you're rich, it doesn't matter if you're an Aboriginal Australian transgender weeaboo, platypus otherkin. If you're poor, you're probably less fvcked if you're white.

Again, Affirmative Action.

I'm sensing a bit of Marxism here, right?


And I'll leave it at that for the minute.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
tvellalott
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2/24/2016 1:49:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I'm sensing a bit of Marxism here, right?

Lol, maybe? I am a political omelette these days. I still like anarcho-capitalism but I also like social democracy even though they're fairly opposite ideals, lol.
I don't really know that much about Marx or Communism outside some of the historic importance and basic political theory.
I want SJWs to acknowledge that being rich is a far greater privilege than being white or male. I also want them to check their own privilege, because they live in the first world.

Then, we're cool.
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themohawkninja
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2/24/2016 1:55:09 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:49:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I'm sensing a bit of Marxism here, right?

Lol, maybe? I am a political omelette these days. I still like anarcho-capitalism but I also like social democracy even though they're fairly opposite ideals, lol.
I don't really know that much about Marx or Communism outside some of the historic importance and basic political theory.

I just noticed you emphasizing the importance of being in a given socio-economic status in the terminology of a "class", and couldn't help but make a connection.

I want SJWs to acknowledge that being rich is a far greater privilege than being white or male. I also want them to check their own privilege, because they live in the first world.

Oh, most definitely. Even in the most regressive areas of the Middle East, being a guy helps, but being rich as all hell helps way more.


Then, we're cool.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
popculturepooka
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2/24/2016 2:02:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:

I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.

I'm going to challenge that actually, because Affirmative Action. You are disadvantaged because you are a white man. Being handsome helps, but I don't see how being tall or straight does in this context.


Wait, in Australia? lol You mean the same Australia where aboriginals are treated like sh!t?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
tvellalott
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2/24/2016 2:03:44 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:55:09 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:49:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:
I'm sensing a bit of Marxism here, right?

Lol, maybe? I am a political omelette these days. I still like anarcho-capitalism but I also like social democracy even though they're fairly opposite ideals, lol.
I don't really know that much about Marx or Communism outside some of the historic importance and basic political theory.

I just noticed you emphasizing the importance of being in a given socio-economic status in the terminology of a "class", and couldn't help but make a connection.

Oh, that makes perfect sense. LOL. No, I don't like the terms class or first world, but people know what I mean when I use them, so for lack of a better option...

I want SJWs to acknowledge that being rich is a far greater privilege than being white or male. I also want them to check their own privilege, because they live in the first world.

Oh, most definitely. Even in the most regressive areas of the Middle East, being a guy helps, but being rich as all hell helps way more.


Then, we're cool.
"Caitlyn Jenner is an incredibly brave and stunningly beautiful woman."

Muh threads
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Maikuru
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2/24/2016 2:08:38 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 11:01:09 PM, tvellalott wrote:

I want to ask your opinion on a specific example. The Mizzou hunger strikes and this guy... *checks name* Jonathan Butler. Now, as far as I can tell, this entire schmozzle is based on an isolated incident (some dude yelled nigg3r out the window of his pickup truck) and THIS GUY, this wanker with a rich daddy, seized the opportunity to cover himself in glory despite having lived in an Middle/Upper Class bubble his whole life. I feel like he couldn't really even understand the privilege white people have over black people, because he has that same privilege, if not more.

From what I recall of the story, Butler and/or his friends were called racial slurs multiple times, were in fights with white peers, and encountered a swastika in a student residence made of feces. When a student organization he was a part of presented their list of complaints to the campus president, he refused to meet with them. This is from memory so some of these details can be wrong.

Regarding your larger point, I think it is a mistake to assume that being privileged in one domain necessarily negates disadvantage elsewhere. As your example demonstrates, having access to money didn't protect Butler from racial prejudice. Similarly, being white wouldn't necessarily protect someone from poverty. Privilege is contextual, meaning we all have differential access to certain advantages at different times. Your comment about Oprah reminded me of a recent story about Melissa Harris-Perry, an African-American reporter who had a pretty scary encounter with a potential attacker in Iowa. Her wealth and fame didn't do much to protect her from apparent racial discrimination, which makes sense because while privileges are contextual, our identities are not.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk...

I think the problem then, is the term 'gone too far'. I think I'll rephrase the question.
Is PC culture heading in the right direction?

I would say yes, insofar as we are becoming more socially conscious about important issues of equity, prejudice, and discrimination. This can certainly go too far, though, and in many instances that has already happened. I support the message, though.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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themohawkninja
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2/24/2016 2:13:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:02:34 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:

I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.

I'm going to challenge that actually, because Affirmative Action. You are disadvantaged because you are a white man. Being handsome helps, but I don't see how being tall or straight does in this context.


Wait, in Australia? lol You mean the same Australia where aboriginals are treated like sh!t?

I thought you just meant someone who is partially Australian. I didn't think you meant someone is Australia. Yeah, Affirmative Action isn't really an argument in that case.
"Morals are simply a limit to man's potential."~Myself

Political correctness is like saying you can't have a steak, because a baby can't eat one ~Unknown
tvellalott
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2/24/2016 2:37:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:08:38 AM, Maikuru wrote:
At 2/23/2016 11:01:09 PM, tvellalott wrote:

I want to ask your opinion on a specific example. The Mizzou hunger strikes and this guy... *checks name* Jonathan Butler. Now, as far as I can tell, this entire schmozzle is based on an isolated incident (some dude yelled nigg3r out the window of his pickup truck) and THIS GUY, this wanker with a rich daddy, seized the opportunity to cover himself in glory despite having lived in an Middle/Upper Class bubble his whole life. I feel like he couldn't really even understand the privilege white people have over black people, because he has that same privilege, if not more.

From what I recall of the story, Butler and/or his friends were called racial slurs multiple times, were in fights with white peers, and encountered a swastika in a student residence made of feces. When a student organization he was a part of presented their list of complaints to the campus president, he refused to meet with them. This is from memory so some of these details can be wrong.

It doesn't surprise me that if we're on opposite sides of the issue, we're going to read different accounts. The details don't matter though, because you see my larger point.

Regarding your larger point, I think it is a mistake to assume that being privileged in one domain necessarily negates disadvantage elsewhere.

If I inferred this was my assumption, then I haven't explained myself correctly and I am sorry. Of course I agree with you.

As your example demonstrates, having access to money didn't protect Butler from racial prejudice. Similarly, being white wouldn't necessarily protect someone from poverty.

I think we're getting to the bottom of this now. Of course being rich doesn't prevent you being discriminated against for being black. However, sometimes privilege does negate disadvantage elsewhere. He (Butler) is black, so idiots are going to yell dumb sh!t at him. However, he's rich, so unlike the homies in the hood, Butler has a bunch of opportunities and advantages because of that wealth that the homies wouldn't have because they're black. (can you tell I wanted to use a different word to homies... trying to not be completely abrasive). Simply by virtue of his education, he speaks, dressed and acts differently and everyone is going to be able to tell his educated and therefore probably not a homie from the hood, thus the preconceptions they have about black people don't apply to this particular black person.

Privilege is contextual, meaning we all have differential access to certain advantages at different times. Your comment about Oprah reminded me of a recent story about Melissa Harris-Perry, an African-American reporter who had a pretty scary encounter with a potential attacker in Iowa. Her wealth and fame didn't do much to protect her from apparent racial discrimination, which makes sense because while privileges are contextual, our identities are not.

I get it. I'm definitely not trying to suggest that being rich makes you immune to racism. It does kind of shelter you a little bit from it though, no? Do you think the Melissa Harris-Perry's of the world get randomly stopped in the street for being black as much as say, an obvious homie from the hood? Racial profiling is a real thing and it's not something desirable in society. However, your clothes, your car, your education... They alter your identity too. I'd even say our identities have contextual elements. The context is who is observing and interacting with you. The context is what you're doing to actively alter your identity (appearance, accent). The context is what you've already done (reputation, education, etc) that affects your identity.
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2/24/2016 3:08:12 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:02:34 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:

I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.

I'm going to challenge that actually, because Affirmative Action. You are disadvantaged because you are a white man. Being handsome helps, but I don't see how being tall or straight does in this context.


Wait, in Australia? lol You mean the same Australia where aboriginals are treated like sh!t?

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Tell me more about how Aboriginals are treated like sh!t, because I promise you I know a lot more about it than you do. My best friend since I was 10 is Aboriginal. His name is Eli and he has 6 sisters. Eli has never worked a job in his whole life. I don't resent him for that, because I understand. His parents are both basically illiterate and so he has trouble reading even now and most likely always will. He struggled with school, despite being mechanically skilled, dropped out early in High School and went on to live the social security fueled life all too common for Aboriginals people.

Oh and plot twist, Eli is as white as me, with some mildly Aboriginal features.

There is a huge, complex cultural problem that is bigger than simply "Aboriginals are treated like sh!t". We have all sorts of systems of education, medical, financial and emotional support for the Aboriginals. We're genuinely trying as a society to improve their standard of living.

I'm just disappointed in you pooka, that you've fallen to this sort of inane fallacy.
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2/24/2016 3:21:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 2:37:25 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Regarding your larger point, I think it is a mistake to assume that being privileged in one domain necessarily negates disadvantage elsewhere.

If I inferred this was my assumption, then I haven't explained myself correctly and I am sorry. Of course I agree with you.

My bad.

As your example demonstrates, having access to money didn't protect Butler from racial prejudice. Similarly, being white wouldn't necessarily protect someone from poverty.

I think we're getting to the bottom of this now. Of course being rich doesn't prevent you being discriminated against for being black. However, sometimes privilege does negate disadvantage elsewhere. He (Butler) is black, so idiots are going to yell dumb sh!t at him. However, he's rich, so unlike the homies in the hood, Butler has a bunch of opportunities and advantages because of that wealth that the homies wouldn't have because they're black. (can you tell I wanted to use a different word to homies... trying to not be completely abrasive). Simply by virtue of his education, he speaks, dressed and acts differently and everyone is going to be able to tell his educated and therefore probably not a homie from the hood, thus the preconceptions they have about black people don't apply to this particular black person.

Yeah, wealth can definitely mitigate certain assumptions, especially about minorities. Statistically speaking, being wealthy would necessarily distinguish a black student from many of his minority peers in the US, which will definitely lead to different social circumstances and outcomes. I'd guess that for Butler, stereotypes related to his racial identity aren't related to things like poverty as might be the case for others without his wealth. I was talking to a black friend of mine today (also wealthy) who mentioned being sick of having people assume his placement in school is an act of affirmative action. He and Butler certainly don't fit the stereotypical black experience, but it seems like their racial identities are still highly salient for other reasons.

Privilege is contextual, meaning we all have differential access to certain advantages at different times. Your comment about Oprah reminded me of a recent story about Melissa Harris-Perry, an African-American reporter who had a pretty scary encounter with a potential attacker in Iowa. Her wealth and fame didn't do much to protect her from apparent racial discrimination, which makes sense because while privileges are contextual, our identities are not.

I get it. I'm definitely not trying to suggest that being rich makes you immune to racism. It does kind of shelter you a little bit from it though, no? Do you think the Melissa Harris-Perry's of the world get randomly stopped in the street for being black as much as say, an obvious homie from the hood? Racial profiling is a real thing and it's not something desirable in society. However, your clothes, your car, your education... They alter your identity too. I'd even say our identities have contextual elements. The context is who is observing and interacting with you. The context is what you're doing to actively alter your identity (appearance, accent). The context is what you've already done (reputation, education, etc) that affects your identity.

Being rich can be a great buffer from discrimination, since it affords you greater control over your social circumstances. You have more resources, and thus more opportunities to shape your life, to an extent. I agree that Melissa Harris-Perry is not in the same boat as someone who is similar in every way except for her wealth, because wealth is still very relevant.
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2/24/2016 3:24:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 12:30:52 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/23/2016 5:01:00 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
My 'privileges' (I checked them): Being white, being a man, being straight, being born in the 'first world'

Yahtzee!

Here's my main points that I want to discuss:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?
Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Sure, your parental SES and citizenship can be privileges insofar as they confer upon you the advantages you mentioned earlier. These advantages will naturally be differentially useful to you depending on your circumstances. For example, you can imagine a parent's SES being highly relevant for a child in terms of their access to better schools, educational resources, outside-of-school support, etc., but less relevant later in life.

I think that poverty has a profound effect on someone's entire life, because it also involves a bunch of learned behaviors. The most important of these is probably an unhealthy relationship with money. A person raised in comfort or affluence sees money as a tool to make more money and to advance their relative position in society. Buy some land? Flip a house? Buy some stock? Sure, if the risk outweighs the reward. For someone with a comfortable cushion, risk isn't scary if you win more often then you lose in the long run.

However, when you grow up in poverty, where every paycheck represents your food and shelter for the week, risk is seen as incredibly dangerous because your well-being is directly threatened if that risk doesn't pan out. When the times get rougher for the comfortable or affluent they invest in various ways in order to dig them out of a hole. When things get rough for the impoverished, they cling to whatever they have in the desperate hopes that it won't be taken from them, and often fail to address the problem.

Eventually, this sort of risk aversion becomes a learned behavior passed down from parent to a child, an a potent part of the 'culture of poverty' which is reinforced by the facts of people's existence. It makes climbing out of poverty very difficult, because the way that poor and rich people relate to money (sustenance vs tool) is often markedly different.

'Using data from the Ethiopian highlands we find that depending on the expected payoff and range, one-third to two-thirds of households are severely or extremely risk averse. Looking deeper, we disaggregate risk averting behavior and its determinants and find that a highly inter-related set of factors serve to dramatically increase household risk aversion. For example, households that stand to lose as well as gain are systematically - and empirically significantly - much more risk averse than households playing gains-only games. This suggests that efforts to increase rural incomes may face substantial resistance in poor countries when possible losses are involved. We also find significant differences in risk averting behavior based on wealth, which suggests that as assets increase households accept more risk in exchange for higher expected returns. Perhaps independent of wealth effects, we also find evidence of path dependence in which even if probabilities of success are constant past failures increase risk aversion in subsequent games.'
http://www.efdinitiative.org...

I totally agree and that is a good resource, thanks. My example obviously wasn't totally accurate. In fact, research has shown that very small differences in resources (e.g., number of books in a home) has a significant cumulative impact in terms of students' success. So, yeah, poverty and SES definitely have long-term relevance.
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2/24/2016 3:26:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 12:37:41 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Is your economic background (ie. what your parents do) a privilege?

Definitely. It's one of the most influential ones. The most crippling forms of oppression usually involve an intersection with poverty.

Is being a citizen of certain nation states a privilege?

Yes, because it literally affords legal and practical privileges.

Are different privileges more privileged than others?

Yeah, but it needs to be taken on a case-by-case basis to do that. And it isn't really productive to do so on an individual level.

Has not being part of certain demographics and thus not having a certain privilege become a privilege in and of itself?

In certain social groups, yeah. But that's been true throughout all of history. People form in-groups, which then target out-groups. Uniting the out-group against the in-group is just a power shift, not a paradigm change.

Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

Absolutely. Censorship of any port is unequivocally shortsighted and stupid, because it both restricts what information you have access to, while simultaneously making a rod for your own back. I love how people think 'oh, let's just force them to stop talking' is somehow a new development in political thought -.-

Hint: if you are actually subversive against the prevailing social order, giving oppressive institutions the power to repress speech is pretty fvcking dumb.

I enjoy these responses.
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2/24/2016 3:36:29 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Am I wrong for cry foul when rich non-white/non-male folk start SJWsplaining about white male privilege, when their own privilege is far more potent than mine?
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2/24/2016 3:58:51 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:08:12 AM, tvellalott wrote:
At 2/24/2016 2:02:34 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 2/24/2016 1:38:11 AM, themohawkninja wrote:

I hope it's very clear that I am aware of and accept the fact that being a tall, handsome, straight white man gives me a huge advantage in the largely white culture that I live in. I would never be so intellectually dishonest as to suggest it doesn't.

I'm going to challenge that actually, because Affirmative Action. You are disadvantaged because you are a white man. Being handsome helps, but I don't see how being tall or straight does in this context.


Wait, in Australia? lol You mean the same Australia where aboriginals are treated like sh!t?

pooka, king of the throwaway zinger. The one line shut down. Welcome!
Tell me more about how Aboriginals are treated like sh!t, because I promise you I know a lot more about it than you do.

I promise you, you probably don't know that much more, if at all. I've made it a mission to study up on aboriginal Australian history because 1) I might be moving there, 2) my gf is Australian, 3) their struggle is very similar to Black American and Native American struggles - ones I can relate to very well.

Tell me, do you think Adam Goodes was being an "overwhiny baby" or do you think that, most of his complaints were true in that it was largely racially motivated?

http://www.theguardian.com...

You don't really think that a country where this happens:

"My people die young in this country. We die 10 years younger than the average Australian, and we are far from free. We are fewer than 3% of the Australian population and yet we are 25% " one quarter " of those Australians locked up in our prisons. And if you"re a juvenile it is worse, it is 50%. An Indigenous child is more likely to be locked up in prison than they are to finish high school."

Doesn't treat it's natives like sh!t, do you? A community where police brutality cases happen with regularity? Where they are regularly discriminated against in the workplace and educational system?

http://www.theage.com.au...

My best friend since I was 10 is Aboriginal. His name is Eli and he has 6 sisters. Eli has never worked a job in his whole life. I don't resent him for that, because I understand. His parents are both basically illiterate and so he has trouble reading even now and most likely always will. He struggled with school, despite being mechanically skilled, dropped out early in High School and went on to live the social security fueled life all too common for Aboriginals people.

Oh and plot twist, Eli is as white as me, with some mildly Aboriginal features.


I'm sure you know the reason why so many Aboriginals are white passing....

There is a huge, complex cultural problem that is bigger than simply "Aboriginals are treated like sh!t". We have all sorts of systems of education, medical, financial and emotional support for the Aboriginals. We're genuinely trying as a society to improve their standard of living.

I'm just disappointed in you pooka, that you've fallen to this sort of inane fallacy.

I'm disappointed you failed to see the point. Me saying in response to something like Affirmative Action disadvantages you as a white guy in Australia (which is what mohawk said) is utterly ridiculous when you have a native population there that is languishing under the legacy (and present day) of systemic racism.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
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2/24/2016 4:05:45 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:36:29 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Am I wrong for cry foul when rich non-white/non-male folk start SJWsplaining about white male privilege, when their own privilege is far more potent than mine?

No. The fact that the 'activist' class is so disproportionately composed of upper to middle class minorities is a disgrace. It's why they spend so much time whining about ridiculous sh!t while the real work on the local level often goes unsung. The 'campus rape epidemic' is the ultimate example of this. It doesn't exist. It's bullsh!t. People on college campuses are LESS likely to be raped than the general population. But the 'activists' who are attending school on their parent's dime want to feel victimized and 'oppressed' so they ignore the REAL rape epidemic that's ravaging the inner cities (often while the police turn a blind eye) so that they can whine about nonexistent problems. It's why people are starting to hate progressives and progressiveness.

The fact that black students can mobilize at Mizzou because some rich kid vaguely sauntered into a car moving at two miles an hour after some dick drew a sh!t swastika, but can sit silently through decades of crushing oppression and the systematic imprisonment on their impoverished people, is absurd. Race solidarity is slim; these people are self-absorbed and detached from the problems suffered by the black underclass.

The sad fact is that poor white people are much, much more capable of understanding and sympathizing with the experiences of poor black people than rich black people ever will be able to. The origins of institutional racism in America can actually be traced back to this fact: it's an institution created by the elites to prevent lower class unity, and it's worked well for centuries for them. If poor white and black people hate one another, then they can't realize how much their interested coincide. They can't act collectively to remedy their situation.
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2/24/2016 4:10:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:26:25 AM, Maikuru wrote:

I enjoy these responses.

Thanks!
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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2/24/2016 4:29:53 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 1:49:00 AM, tvellalott wrote:

Lol, maybe? I am a political omelette these days.

You know what they say, gotta break a few eggs to make an omellete ;)
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2/24/2016 4:39:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 3:58:51 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
I'm disappointed you failed to see the point. Me saying in response to something like Affirmative Action disadvantages you as a white guy in Australia (which is what mohawk said) is utterly ridiculous when you have a native population there that is languishing under the legacy (and present day) of systemic racism.

Mmm, I did miss your point. I thought you were just having a dig at me for being a white Australian, which seemed very out of character really. Sorry for jumping down your throat.
If you want to discuss Aboriginals and the (racist) systems that prevent them from having success in culture, lets make a different thread about it.
It's a passionate topic for me. :)
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2/24/2016 8:53:04 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

Maybe because I'm a PC-aficionado, but I can't see any censorship at all. What's being censored?
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2/24/2016 8:55:41 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 4:05:45 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 2/24/2016 3:36:29 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Am I wrong for cry foul when rich non-white/non-male folk start SJWsplaining about white male privilege, when their own privilege is far more potent than mine?

No. The fact that the 'activist' class is so disproportionately composed of upper to middle class minorities is a disgrace. It's why they spend so much time whining about ridiculous sh!t while the real work on the local level often goes unsung. The 'campus rape epidemic' is the ultimate example of this. It doesn't exist. It's bullsh!t. People on college campuses are LESS likely to be raped than the general population. But the 'activists' who are attending school on their parent's dime want to feel victimized and 'oppressed' so they ignore the REAL rape epidemic that's ravaging the inner cities (often while the police turn a blind eye) so that they can whine about nonexistent problems. It's why people are starting to hate progressives and progressiveness.

The fact that black students can mobilize at Mizzou because some rich kid vaguely sauntered into a car moving at two miles an hour after some dick drew a sh!t swastika, but can sit silently through decades of crushing oppression and the systematic imprisonment on their impoverished people, is absurd. Race solidarity is slim; these people are self-absorbed and detached from the problems suffered by the black underclass.

The sad fact is that poor white people are much, much more capable of understanding and sympathizing with the experiences of poor black people than rich black people ever will be able to. The origins of institutional racism in America can actually be traced back to this fact: it's an institution created by the elites to prevent lower class unity, and it's worked well for centuries for them. If poor white and black people hate one another, then they can't realize how much their interested coincide. They can't act collectively to remedy their situation.

The weirdest thing about this for me is that undergraduates have always held ridiculous and ardent political opinions. That's tradition. That's one of the awesome things about college is that you can experiment with ideas and political action. So why are people all of a sudden taking college politics so seriously?
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2/24/2016 9:51:41 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/24/2016 8:53:04 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/23/2016 8:55:41 AM, tvellalott wrote:
Has PC culture gone too far in censoring things?

Maybe because I'm a PC-aficionado, but I can't see any censorship at all. What's being censored?

Well, shadowbans on Twitter and Reddit for a start, false DCMAs on Youtube, No-platforming people at conventions and universities...
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