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White Power

Maikuru
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2/27/2016 12:02:51 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
A review of the 503 "most powerful" people in the US has revealed that 459 of them are white.

http://www.nytimes.com...

Do you agree with this list? What is the significance of this distribution on US culture?
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someloser
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2/27/2016 12:06:40 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I wonder what ideas people would get if the list distinguished between ethnic Ashkenazi and other whites. Hmm.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Maikuru
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2/27/2016 12:14:31 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:06:40 AM, someloser wrote:
I wonder what ideas people would get if the list distinguished between ethnic Ashkenazi and other whites. Hmm.

It looks like the list distinguishes across races, though an ethnic distribution would also be interesting.

To what extent do you believe whites in the US ethnically identify?
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someloser
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2/27/2016 12:16:09 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:14:31 AM, Maikuru wrote:
To what extent do you believe whites in the US ethnically identify?

Identify as? Could you rephrase the question?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Maikuru
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2/27/2016 12:20:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:16:09 AM, someloser wrote:
At 2/27/2016 12:14:31 AM, Maikuru wrote:
To what extent do you believe whites in the US ethnically identify?

Identify as? Could you rephrase the question?

There seems to be the belief in identity research that non-whites in the US tend to both racially self-identify (e.g., "I'm black) and ethnically self-identify (e.g., "I'm Hispanic), whereas whites mostly just racially self-identify.
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someloser
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2/27/2016 12:24:27 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:20:54 AM, Maikuru wrote:
There seems to be the belief in identity research that non-whites in the US tend to both racially self-identify (e.g., "I'm black) and ethnically self-identify (e.g., "I'm Hispanic), whereas whites mostly just racially self-identify.

Yeah, although I've seen "Hispanic" being treated as a race more than ethnicity (pretty much a substitute for "mestizo" at this point).

Whites in general don't seem to ethnically identify at all, with maybe a few exceptions (such as Ashkenazi Jews and Italians).
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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2/27/2016 12:54:42 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
The fact that they included sports owners is ridiculous. Maybe like the owners of absolutely top-tier teams with massive followings, but th baseball teams from New York and Tampa Bay are not equal. Also, some of those owners aren't even American.
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Maikuru
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2/27/2016 1:18:48 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:54:42 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact that they included sports owners is ridiculous. Maybe like the owners of absolutely top-tier teams with massive followings, but th baseball teams from New York and Tampa Bay are not equal. Also, some of those owners aren't even American.

I was curious about that, too, as well about selections like music producers and book publishers. I think the point is that these individuals are thought to shape not only our politics, but also our popular culture and artifacts.

Which of the groups there do you think are most influential? Does the distribution interest or concern you?
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Maikuru
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2/27/2016 1:20:02 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:24:27 AM, someloser wrote:
At 2/27/2016 12:20:54 AM, Maikuru wrote:
There seems to be the belief in identity research that non-whites in the US tend to both racially self-identify (e.g., "I'm black) and ethnically self-identify (e.g., "I'm Hispanic), whereas whites mostly just racially self-identify.

Yeah, although I've seen "Hispanic" being treated as a race more than ethnicity (pretty much a substitute for "mestizo" at this point).

Whites in general don't seem to ethnically identify at all, with maybe a few exceptions (such as Ashkenazi Jews and Italians).

There's not much research on why that is, but I think it's a growing field. As the country becomes more ethnically and racially diverse, the identity experiences of whites become more academically interesting.
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Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 1:39:00 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I think the lack of ethbic identification in "whites" is in part a reponse to current culture. When "whites" get lumped together as the same they just start doing that. Much the same that "blacks" were lumped together for a long time, and so they identify more as "black" then any specific ancestral ethnicity or nationality.

Whereas, at least from my experience, hispanics identify more ethnically/nationality ancestrally. Puerto-Rican, Mexican, Nicaraguan, Brazilian, etc. will identify as that moreso than even American on average, even if they were born in the U.S. it's all quite interesting, and really, if in part due to one thing, can't really be attractibuted imho to one root cause. Rather, a bunch of smaller causes that work in combination to the resulting effect.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
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Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 1:42:25 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
The way I ultimately see it. Is its just people doing what they've always done. Seperating themselves and others/grouping themselves and others together. This is relatively benign, but of course as the past has shown us, can have monstrous consequences. But damn, if we're not dividing based off race, we'd just he dividing based off some other somewhat arbitrary line. Foolishness at its finest
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 1:44:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Arbitrary divisions with real and dangerous consequences. Will humanity ever learn? Tune in next week to find out on...

DRAGONBALL Z
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 1:50:07 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 12:54:42 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
The fact that they included sports owners is ridiculous. Maybe like the owners of absolutely top-tier teams with massive followings, but th baseball teams from New York and Tampa Bay are not equal. Also, some of those owners aren't even American.

+1, I would say teams like the Yankees, Cowboys, etc. are definitely "powerful, franchises, but not many sports franchises are extremely influential country-wide.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
someloser
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2/27/2016 1:52:38 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 1:42:25 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
But damn, if we're not dividing based off race, we'd just he dividing based off some other somewhat arbitrary line. Foolishness at its finest

Race isn't arbitrary at all.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 1:53:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 1:52:38 AM, someloser wrote:
At 2/27/2016 1:42:25 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
But damn, if we're not dividing based off race, we'd just he dividing based off some other somewhat arbitrary line. Foolishness at its finest

Race isn't arbitrary at all.

Actual genetics would disagree with you
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
someloser
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2/27/2016 1:55:24 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 1:53:35 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Actual genetics would disagree with you

Care to give a more specific argument?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
someloser
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2/27/2016 1:58:46 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Genetics are the exact reason race is not arbitrary at all.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 2:00:54 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 1:52:38 AM, someloser wrote:
At 2/27/2016 1:42:25 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
But damn, if we're not dividing based off race, we'd just he dividing based off some other somewhat arbitrary line. Foolishness at its finest

Race isn't arbitrary at all.

Basically, saying people of different skin color(pigmentation) are different races, is like saying people of different eye color, or hair color, are different "races"

As a society we placed arbitrary distinctions of "race" but that we placed it doesn't make it suddenly real or existent. For centuries we thought the Earth was between 40-340 million years old, or that geological formations were created purely by volcanic activity(and not plate tectonics), or that such a thing as "ether" existed. The ether distinction is a perfect comparison. Organic and inorganic chemistry is actually the distinction between a nonexistent concept of ether. Organic compounds were thought to contain it, inorganic thought not to. We of course now know ether doesn't exist, but yet, organic and inorganic chemistry distinctions still begrudgingly remain because as a species were stubborn AF
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
someloser
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2/27/2016 2:09:33 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 2:00:54 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, saying people of different skin color(pigmentation) are different races,

I'm going to stop you right there, because I've never ever claimed this here (nor has anyone in the thread). Race is quite clearly not just about skin color.

As a society we placed arbitrary distinctions of "race" but that we placed it doesn't make it suddenly real or existent.

Again with the arbitrary label. Look, there's absolutely no data to support that viewpoint - if that were the case, racial self-identification wouldn't coincide with actual genetic ancestry nearly 100% of the time.

At the very best, you can argue that race is arbitrary based on a particular and really specific definition. But that's just playing semantics (and you'll find that most people won't follow).
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 2:11:21 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Of course now the distinction between organic and inorganic compounds is the presence of carbon, but the point still remains. It started out as a distinction based off of a postulated but ultimately nonexistent thing. Once we get in our minds there should be a distinction though, that is hard to break. So we just shift the goalposts to fit that preformed hypothesis/postulation
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 2:18:33 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 2:09:33 AM, someloser wrote:
At 2/27/2016 2:00:54 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Basically, saying people of different skin color(pigmentation) are different races,

I'm going to stop you right there, because I've never ever claimed this here (nor has anyone in the thread). Race is quite clearly not just about skin color.

Then you are lumping cultural and regional ethnicity with race. Which are not the same thing

As a society we placed arbitrary distinctions of "race" but that we placed it doesn't make it suddenly real or existent.

Again with the arbitrary label. Look, there's absolutely no data to support that viewpoint - if that were the case, racial self-identification wouldn't coincide with actual genetic ancestry nearly 100% of the time.

There is plenty of data genetically to support that viewpoint

http://harvardmagazine.com...

"when he discovered that of all human genetic variation (which we now know to be just 0.1 percent of all genetic material), 85 percent occurs within geographically distinct groups, while 15 percent or less occurs between them. The issue today, Fullwiley says, is that many scientists are mining that 15 percent in search of human differences by continent.

To say that people are different races is as erroneous to say that two eggs(both white and medium sized) are quite actually different because there is a pinpoint speck of brown on one. Really though, .1% accounts for genetic differences. 15% of that .1%(or .0015%) of that accounts for genetic differences outside of regional genetics, while 85% occurs within regional contexts.

I'm not sure what other evidence you need to say that the distinction is arbitrary, but meh. What you think is on you


At the very best, you can argue that race is arbitrary based on a particular and really specific definition. But that's just playing semantics (and you'll find that most people won't follow).

No, it's really not playing semantics. You're playing semantics by lumping race in with culture, regional ethnicity, and nationality.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 2:23:19 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 2:11:21 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Of course now the distinction between organic and inorganic compounds is the presence of carbon, but the point still remains. It started out as a distinction based off of a postulated but ultimately nonexistent thing. Once we get in our minds there should be a distinction though, that is hard to break. So we just shift the goalposts to fit that preformed hypothesis/postulation

Much the same as you shifted the goalposts by the distinction between "whites" and ashkenazi Jews(a combined regional[European] and religious[Jewish]) distinction. When if we are speaking of race, Ashkenazi Jews were a part of Europe for so long that they ought to just be considered European ethnically/culturally, white racially in the context of the discussion, and Jewish by religion/culture
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 2:29:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Which to muddy the waters even more, one can't even say European can be considered a overarching culture or ethnicity, because even with that there's a variety of ethnicities and cultures. It's true of anywhere really. So then at some point you have to arbitrarily draw the line somewhere, and generally speaking throughout history when it comes to race, that line has been drawn on appearance, majoritively by way of skin color, and somewhat with facial features.
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
tejretics
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2/27/2016 3:12:03 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Population probably has something to do with it.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
someloser
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2/27/2016 4:18:34 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 2:18:33 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
"when he discovered that of all human genetic variation (which we now know to be just 0.1 percent of all genetic material), 85 percent occurs within geographically distinct groups, while 15 percent or less occurs between them. The issue today, Fullwiley says, is that many scientists are mining that 15 percent in search of human differences by continent.

Oh boy, Lewontin's argument again.

Here are some links explaining why it should be (and already is, it earned the author a fallacy in his name) dismissed as meaningless bunk:

https://westhunt.wordpress.com...
http://en.metapedia.org... (note that I generally dislike Metapedia, but they did a good job in this case)
https://z139.wordpress.com...
http://www.unz.com...
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com...

So, yeah, it supports the view of race having no genetic basis, if you focus really hard on just -that- piece of data and ignore all of the surrounding context. But hey, ideologues aren't famed for their intellectual honesty.

Let's look at another problem with the article:

"Nor can genetic tests verify a person"s race or ethnicity."

And that's why racial/ethnic self-identification coincides with actual genetic cluster over 99% of the time (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...). Going by that study, actually, your racial self-identification is more indicative of your actual genes than your gender (http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu...). And seriously, gender isn't an arbitrary distinction at all.

The article then mentions 23andme, but criticizes it for the accuracy of its medical reports. It's more than a bit disingenuous to leave out 23andme's primary purpose in providing ancestry reports (based on genetic data). Never mind that making predictions based on one's race (about anything but ancestry) is pretty irrelevant to the question of its existence. Maybe it wasn't intentionally overlooked, but it certainly doesn't shed positive light on the article either way.

So much for "no basis in biology".

To say that people are different races is as erroneous to say that two eggs(both white and medium sized) are quite actually different because there is a pinpoint speck of brown on one.

No. It's less* erroneous as saying some cows are from breed x while others are from breed y (which is to say, not at all), as well as a myriad of other animal subspecies.

So really, if you want to ditch genetically-based distinctions between human populations, let's be fair and do it absolutely everywhere else applicable too (bye subspecies).

Then the argument is -at least- self consistent; not any less wrong, but hey, at least it's consistent.

*compare the Fst distance between human populations (http://journals.plos.org...) and cow breeds (https://www.researchgate.net...)
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
someloser
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2/27/2016 4:24:35 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 2:23:19 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Much the same as you shifted the goalposts by the distinction between "whites" and ashkenazi Jews(a combined regional[European] and religious[Jewish]) distinction. When if we are speaking of race, Ashkenazi Jews were a part of Europe for so long that they ought to just be considered European ethnically/culturally, white racially in the context of the discussion, and Jewish by religion/culture

My first reply singled out the Ashkenazi ethnic group for a very specific reason. It had little to do with race as a biological categorization, and a lot more with the socio-political implications of the original list.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Buddamoose
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2/27/2016 5:30:38 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Just to clarify, are you referring to races in the taxonomic sense? Or another sense?
"Reality is an illusion created due to a lack of alcohol"
-Airmax1227

"You were the moon all this time, and he was always there to make you shine."

"Was he the sun?"

"No honey, he was the darkness"

-Kazekirion
someloser
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2/27/2016 5:58:28 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 5:30:38 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
Just to clarify, are you referring to races in the taxonomic sense? Or another sense?

Somewhat taxonomic, yes. What I'm trying to get at (at least, within this offshoot-conversation - original comment being something else entirely) is that race (or at least, the popular perception) does have some significant basis in genetic differences between human populations. I wouldn't say it's ideal, or the best way to sort humans on a genetic basis (that's what clusters are for), but it's just completely inaccurate to dismiss it as being totally baseless and arbitrary (genetically speaking).

Think of it this way: The populations we consider "white" will be genetically distinct from the ones we consider "Indian" or "black". It may not be the ideal way to sort populations (genetically speaking), but it has a large degree of relevance (especially considering how important race is as a social concept).
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Maikuru
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2/27/2016 3:10:30 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/27/2016 1:39:00 AM, Buddamoose wrote:
I think the lack of ethbic identification in "whites" is in part a reponse to current culture. When "whites" get lumped together as the same they just start doing that. Much the same that "blacks" were lumped together for a long time, and so they identify more as "black" then any specific ancestral ethnicity or nationality.

Whereas, at least from my experience, hispanics identify more ethnically/nationality ancestrally. Puerto-Rican, Mexican, Nicaraguan, Brazilian, etc. will identify as that moreso than even American on average, even if they were born in the U.S. it's all quite interesting, and really, if in part due to one thing, can't really be attractibuted imho to one root cause. Rather, a bunch of smaller causes that work in combination to the resulting effect.

Do you think it would be better if racial labels were dropped and everyone ethnically self-identified?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
- lamerde

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