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Poverty is a disease of the mind

Wylted
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2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow. I've caught crap from people for saying that black people are more likely to be violent, lazy and short sighted. This is because they are disproportionately poor, and in unstable environments. The typical responce is to call me racist, or say I'm making up the facts. Why don't you guys just explain the effects of poverty on the mind? Probably because you are so busy making excuses for the poor, and dismissing the effects of poverty on poor people.

Why poor people are impulsive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When I was a kid, I got a job making about 10 bucks a day for 2 or 3 hours of work. In the times I did try to save, my money would be raided for beer money, a late rent payment or some other sort of emergency. It didn't take me long yo figure out the only way I was using my own money, was to spend it the second I got it. That's just one example, I'm sure you guys can think of a hundred others. After seeing only incentive for short term effort, and no incentive for long term goals, your brains neurons start firing differently than a normal person's. This isn't the type of learning that can take place, on an intellectual level. Unlearning this, must also occur on an emotional level. It's either too late for me, orbI need some more set backs, before getting my brain fixed.

I can't help it, I'm always going to have that impulsiveness. I'm always going to feel like a caged animal. Ready to strike, unable to sit patiently. If I raise my child in a stable home and incentivize longterm thinking he can have the proper mentality, but I can't. Don't feel sorry for me Though. I have a glaring and obvious weakness that people from a better background don't have, I also have some strengths. There is a reason you see people from really poor backgrounds, become billionaires more often than from a middle class background. (not including the extremely wealthy and inherited wealth here)

What can be Done

The main focus of this was to show the reasons why poor people act the way they do. I also wanted to give some people a better weapon to use against people who say a disproportionate amount of blacks are violent, lazy and impulsive. Maybe instead of denying that these traits exist, when it's plainly obvious they do (studies prove it, but enough anecdotal evidence is fine, idiots), they can explain how poverty causes a disease of the mind. Now besides helping to better inform people instead of dismissing obvious facts, here is what else can be done, by society.

1. Provide a basic minimum income. We are coming to the poibt in time, where we should start planning on how to replace ourselves with machines anyway, just provide the BMI, so poor people have a steady stream of income to look forward to. The BMI sgould also be enough to meet everyone's most basic needs.

2. Stop ruining people's lives over petty crimes. We have a justice system that is too harsh with petty criminals and not harsh enough on dangerous criminals. There is no reason that prisons should ve over run with non violent drug offendors. Release these people, it is better to have a subpar father, then an absent one, stop contributing to the cycle of poverty.

3. This is something new I've been looking into, but let's destroy predominantly poor areas. Whether it be a trailor park or the ghetto. Requiring every community no matter how rich, to allow for a certain portionbof poor people. Enough so as to get these people in a more stable environment, but not so much as that it reduces tge quality of living, for other tenants. I hear other parts of the world, have experimented with this, with some success.

What families can do

1. Give your kids an allowance, and don't rob them when you need a pack of cigarettes or to pay rent. Just suffer, so that they may have a better future.

2. Try to stay in one area. Kids need to be able to expect the same things everyday. This will help incentivize long term positive things, such as building lasting stable friendships.

It doesn't matter how harsh the environment. If you can make it stable and predictable, you're settibg your children up for success. They don't have to have the same disease of the mind, you do.

Thoughts?
janesix
Posts: 3,485
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2/28/2016 8:51:41 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow. I've caught crap from people for saying that black people are more likely to be violent, lazy and short sighted. This is because they are disproportionately poor, and in unstable environments. The typical responce is to call me racist, or say I'm making up the facts. Why don't you guys just explain the effects of poverty on the mind? Probably because you are so busy making excuses for the poor, and dismissing the effects of poverty on poor people.

Why poor people are impulsive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When I was a kid, I got a job making about 10 bucks a day for 2 or 3 hours of work. In the times I did try to save, my money would be raided for beer money, a late rent payment or some other sort of emergency. It didn't take me long yo figure out the only way I was using my own money, was to spend it the second I got it. That's just one example, I'm sure you guys can think of a hundred others. After seeing only incentive for short term effort, and no incentive for long term goals, your brains neurons start firing differently than a normal person's. This isn't the type of learning that can take place, on an intellectual level. Unlearning this, must also occur on an emotional level. It's either too late for me, orbI need some more set backs, before getting my brain fixed.

I can't help it, I'm always going to have that impulsiveness. I'm always going to feel like a caged animal. Ready to strike, unable to sit patiently. If I raise my child in a stable home and incentivize longterm thinking he can have the proper mentality, but I can't. Don't feel sorry for me Though. I have a glaring and obvious weakness that people from a better background don't have, I also have some strengths. There is a reason you see people from really poor backgrounds, become billionaires more often than from a middle class background. (not including the extremely wealthy and inherited wealth here)

What can be Done

The main focus of this was to show the reasons why poor people act the way they do. I also wanted to give some people a better weapon to use against people who say a disproportionate amount of blacks are violent, lazy and impulsive. Maybe instead of denying that these traits exist, when it's plainly obvious they do (studies prove it, but enough anecdotal evidence is fine, idiots), they can explain how poverty causes a disease of the mind. Now besides helping to better inform people instead of dismissing obvious facts, here is what else can be done, by society.

1. Provide a basic minimum income. We are coming to the poibt in time, where we should start planning on how to replace ourselves with machines anyway, just provide the BMI, so poor people have a steady stream of income to look forward to. The BMI sgould also be enough to meet everyone's most basic needs.

2. Stop ruining people's lives over petty crimes. We have a justice system that is too harsh with petty criminals and not harsh enough on dangerous criminals. There is no reason that prisons should ve over run with non violent drug offendors. Release these people, it is better to have a subpar father, then an absent one, stop contributing to the cycle of poverty.
good idea

3. This is something new I've been looking into, but let's destroy predominantly poor areas. Whether it be a trailor park or the ghetto. Requiring every community no matter how rich, to allow for a certain portionbof poor people. Enough so as to get these people in a more stable environment, but not so much as that it reduces tge quality of living, for other tenants. I hear other parts of the world, have experimented with this, with some success.

What families can do

1. Give your kids an allowance, and don't rob them when you need a pack of cigarettes or to pay rent. Just suffer, so that they may have a better future.

2. Try to stay in one area. Kids need to be able to expect the same things everyday. This will help incentivize long term positive things, such as building lasting stable friendships.

It doesn't matter how harsh the environment. If you can make it stable and predictable, you're settibg your children up for success. They don't have to have the same disease of the mind, you do.

Thoughts?
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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2/28/2016 8:51:57 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow. I've caught crap from people for saying that black people are more likely to be violent, lazy and short sighted. This is because they are disproportionately poor, and in unstable environments. The typical responce is to call me racist, or say I'm making up the facts. Why don't you guys just explain the effects of poverty on the mind? Probably because you are so busy making excuses for the poor, and dismissing the effects of poverty on poor people.

Why poor people are impulsive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When I was a kid, I got a job making about 10 bucks a day for 2 or 3 hours of work. In the times I did try to save, my money would be raided for beer money, a late rent payment or some other sort of emergency. It didn't take me long yo figure out the only way I was using my own money, was to spend it the second I got it. That's just one example, I'm sure you guys can think of a hundred others. After seeing only incentive for short term effort, and no incentive for long term goals, your brains neurons start firing differently than a normal person's. This isn't the type of learning that can take place, on an intellectual level. Unlearning this, must also occur on an emotional level. It's either too late for me, orbI need some more set backs, before getting my brain fixed.

I can't help it, I'm always going to have that impulsiveness. I'm always going to feel like a caged animal. Ready to strike, unable to sit patiently. If I raise my child in a stable home and incentivize longterm thinking he can have the proper mentality, but I can't. Don't feel sorry for me Though. I have a glaring and obvious weakness that people from a better background don't have, I also have some strengths. There is a reason you see people from really poor backgrounds, become billionaires more often than from a middle class background. (not including the extremely wealthy and inherited wealth here)

What can be Done

The main focus of this was to show the reasons why poor people act the way they do. I also wanted to give some people a better weapon to use against people who say a disproportionate amount of blacks are violent, lazy and impulsive. Maybe instead of denying that these traits exist, when it's plainly obvious they do (studies prove it, but enough anecdotal evidence is fine, idiots), they can explain how poverty causes a disease of the mind. Now besides helping to better inform people instead of dismissing obvious facts, here is what else can be done, by society.

1. Provide a basic minimum income. We are coming to the poibt in time, where we should start planning on how to replace ourselves with machines anyway, just provide the BMI, so poor people have a steady stream of income to look forward to. The BMI sgould also be enough to meet everyone's most basic needs.

2. Stop ruining people's lives over petty crimes. We have a justice system that is too harsh with petty criminals and not harsh enough on dangerous criminals. There is no reason that prisons should ve over run with non violent drug offendors. Release these people, it is better to have a subpar father, then an absent one, stop contributing to the cycle of poverty.

3. This is something new I've been looking into, but let's destroy predominantly poor areas. Whether it be a trailor park or the ghetto. Requiring every community no matter how rich, to allow for a certain portionbof poor people. Enough so as to get these people in a more stable environment, but not so much as that it reduces tge quality of living, for other tenants. I hear other parts of the world, have experimented with this, with some success.

What families can do

1. Give your kids an allowance, and don't rob them when you need a pack of cigarettes or to pay rent. Just suffer, so that they may have a better future.

2. Try to stay in one area. Kids need to be able to expect the same things everyday. This will help incentivize long term positive things, such as building lasting stable friendships.

It doesn't matter how harsh the environment. If you can make it stable and predictable, you're settibg your children up for success. They don't have to have the same disease of the mind, you do.

Thoughts?

Here is where you go wrong. You say Blacks are lazy and that it is learned behavior. However, black has nothing to do with it. You haven't proven a causation based upon race. Just because one racial type is more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic environment, in that case due to history of oppression, doesnt mean that the effect you post is not applicable to all races in the same environment.

So stop trashing a race when race has nothing to do with it ther than past oppression against them.

Secondly, what you are posting has to do with what is called lotus of control. Liberals have understood for years that poverty is not just fixed when every poor person decides to "work hard". There are real cultural and subconscious changes that needs to change first.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/28/2016 9:05:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Here is where you go wrong. You say Blacks are lazy and that it is learned behavior. However, black has nothing to do with it. You haven't proven a causation based upon race. Just because one racial type is more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic environment, in that case due to history of oppression, doesnt mean that the effect you post is not applicable to all races in the same environment.

I actually spent that entire post, saying it is applicable to all people. I also explained that blacks are disproportionately poor. If blacks are disproportionately poor, and therefore have a disproportionate problem with impulse control, then saying that they disproportionately are lazy and violent as a result of that impulse control, I'm not lying. The problem is that people deny that these disproportionate traits exist. Not too long ago, I made a poat explaining that blacks are disproportionately lazy at work, and instead of talking about the reasons for that, people went into denial, that that reality existed. It is not racist to say a disproportionate amounts of blacks are lazy, especially when I've backed it up with facts. To say a disproportiinate amount of blacks are lazy is not a racist statement, as I have explained. The problem is that racists, think it is racist, because their mind shuts down, after they hear the word black.

So stop trashing a race when race has nothing to do with it ther than past oppression against them.

Ic the past oppression cause racial discrepencies to happen now, we shouldn't stick our head in the sand and ignore those discrepencies. You hurt the black community, when you fail to realize, that it's people face problems of violence the typical white person, does not have to experience.

secondly, what you are posting has to do with what is called lotus of control. Liberals have understood for years that poverty is not just fixed when every poor person decides to "work hard". There are real cultural and subconscious changes that needs to change first.

I just gave suggestions at the bottom, which are in our lotus of control to support.
slo1
Posts: 4,361
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2/28/2016 9:31:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 9:05:18 PM, Wylted wrote:
Here is where you go wrong. You say Blacks are lazy and that it is learned behavior. However, black has nothing to do with it. You haven't proven a causation based upon race. Just because one racial type is more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic environment, in that case due to history of oppression, doesnt mean that the effect you post is not applicable to all races in the same environment.

I actually spent that entire post, saying it is applicable to all people. I also explained that blacks are disproportionately poor. If blacks are disproportionately poor, and therefore have a disproportionate problem with impulse control, then saying that they disproportionately are lazy and violent as a result of that impulse control, I'm not lying. The problem is that people deny that these disproportionate traits exist. Not too long ago, I made a poat explaining that blacks are disproportionately lazy at work, and instead of talking about the reasons for that, people went into denial, that that reality existed. It is not racist to say a disproportionate amounts of blacks are lazy, especially when I've backed it up with facts. To say a disproportiinate amount of blacks are lazy is not a racist statement, as I have explained. The problem is that racists, think it is racist, because their mind shuts down, after they hear the word black.

So stop trashing a race when race has nothing to do with it ther than past oppression against them.

Ic the past oppression cause racial discrepencies to happen now, we shouldn't stick our head in the sand and ignore those discrepencies. You hurt the black community, when you fail to realize, that it's people face problems of violence the typical white person, does not have to experience.

secondly, what you are posting has to do with what is called lotus of control. Liberals have understood for years that poverty is not just fixed when every poor person decides to "work hard". There are real cultural and subconscious changes that needs to change first.

I just gave suggestions at the bottom, which are in our lotus of control to support.

You need to understand the distinction. You could also say that right handed people are more likely to have less impulse control. You would be right in that a majority of those with bad impulse control are right handed, but you would be wrong assigning causation to right handedness.

Causation and correlation are very different things. You are perpetuating stereotypes. Black is only important when considering how a minority population was so oppressed that as a group many were forced into poverty and did not have equal opportunity to pursuit life liberty and happiness. Now you realize that "working harder" is not a solution, what do you do to help people caught in this poverty trap?
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/28/2016 9:50:15 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
You need to understand the distinction. You could also say that right handed people are more likely to have less impulse control. You would be right in that a majority of those with bad impulse control are right handed, but you would be wrong assigning causation to right handedness.

That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty. And no, saying that a disproportionate amount of black people are lazy and violent, does not say that, the color of their skin is the causation. It's merely pointing out a correlation. You just assume the person telling you that is assuming a causation, even when they never state it.

Causation and correlation are very different things. You are perpetuating stereotypes. Black is only important when considering how a minority population was so oppressed that as a group many were forced into poverty and did not have equal opportunity to pursuit life liberty and happiness. Now you realize that "working harder" is not a solution, what do you do to help people caught in this poverty trap?

I gave a list of solutions. Please reread the op. I do acknowledge that "work harder" is simplistic advice and really doesn't address the problem, but on the other hand it's silly to dismiss the value of hard work. Anybody in America can escape poverty if they set their mind to it.
Hoppi
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2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/29/2016 4:23:20 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.

Do you want to debate this, that is just one of about 20 studies that indicate this. Not only that, it's just common sense to know that people with a lifetime of benefiting from short term thinking, over longterm thinking, are going to lean towards short term thinking, more then those with the opposite results.
Hoppi
Posts: 1,655
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2/29/2016 4:56:46 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 4:23:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.

Do you want to debate this, that is just one of about 20 studies that indicate this. Not only that, it's just common sense to know that people with a lifetime of benefiting from short term thinking, over longterm thinking, are going to lean towards short term thinking, more then those with the opposite results.

I just disagree with this "disease of the mind" idea. People will use short term thinking when they need to, sure. People in poverty are forced to use it more often. What I disagree with is that this is a disease of the person rather than of the circumstance. Actually, we probably agree on this. I'm actually tired, so I can't think straight. Let's just say we agree. It feels nice.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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2/29/2016 11:26:16 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 4:56:46 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:23:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.

Do you want to debate this, that is just one of about 20 studies that indicate this. Not only that, it's just common sense to know that people with a lifetime of benefiting from short term thinking, over longterm thinking, are going to lean towards short term thinking, more then those with the opposite results.

I just disagree with this "disease of the mind" idea. People will use short term thinking when they need to, sure. People in poverty are forced to use it more often. What I disagree with is that this is a disease of the person rather than of the circumstance. Actually, we probably agree on this. I'm actually tired, so I can't think straight. Let's just say we agree. It feels nice.

lol okay. I'm just saying that the fibers in our brain get used to certain actions,and get stronger in that respect, making it harder to make decisions out of your comfort zone.
liltankjj
Posts: 430
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2/29/2016 2:40:45 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow. I've caught crap from people for saying that black people are more likely to be violent, lazy and short sighted. This is because they are disproportionately poor, and in unstable environments. The typical responce is to call me racist, or say I'm making up the facts. Why don't you guys just explain the effects of poverty on the mind? Probably because you are so busy making excuses for the poor, and dismissing the effects of poverty on poor people.

Why poor people are impulsive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When I was a kid, I got a job making about 10 bucks a day for 2 or 3 hours of work. In the times I did try to save, my money would be raided for beer money, a late rent payment or some other sort of emergency. It didn't take me long yo figure out the only way I was using my own money, was to spend it the second I got it. That's just one example, I'm sure you guys can think of a hundred others. After seeing only incentive for short term effort, and no incentive for long term goals, your brains neurons start firing differently than a normal person's. This isn't the type of learning that can take place, on an intellectual level. Unlearning this, must also occur on an emotional level. It's either too late for me, orbI need some more set backs, before getting my brain fixed.

I can't help it, I'm always going to have that impulsiveness. I'm always going to feel like a caged animal. Ready to strike, unable to sit patiently. If I raise my child in a stable home and incentivize longterm thinking he can have the proper mentality, but I can't. Don't feel sorry for me Though. I have a glaring and obvious weakness that people from a better background don't have, I also have some strengths. There is a reason you see people from really poor backgrounds, become billionaires more often than from a middle class background. (not including the extremely wealthy and inherited wealth here)

What can be Done

The main focus of this was to show the reasons why poor people act the way they do. I also wanted to give some people a better weapon to use against people who say a disproportionate amount of blacks are violent, lazy and impulsive. Maybe instead of denying that these traits exist, when it's plainly obvious they do (studies prove it, but enough anecdotal evidence is fine, idiots), they can explain how poverty causes a disease of the mind. Now besides helping to better inform people instead of dismissing obvious facts, here is what else can be done, by society.

1. Provide a basic minimum income. We are coming to the poibt in time, where we should start planning on how to replace ourselves with machines anyway, just provide the BMI, so poor people have a steady stream of income to look forward to. The BMI sgould also be enough to meet everyone's most basic needs.

2. Stop ruining people's lives over petty crimes. We have a justice system that is too harsh with petty criminals and not harsh enough on dangerous criminals. There is no reason that prisons should ve over run with non violent drug offendors. Release these people, it is better to have a subpar father, then an absent one, stop contributing to the cycle of poverty.

3. This is something new I've been looking into, but let's destroy predominantly poor areas. Whether it be a trailor park or the ghetto. Requiring every community no matter how rich, to allow for a certain portionbof poor people. Enough so as to get these people in a more stable environment, but not so much as that it reduces tge quality of living, for other tenants. I hear other parts of the world, have experimented with this, with some success.

What families can do

1. Give your kids an allowance, and don't rob them when you need a pack of cigarettes or to pay rent. Just suffer, so that they may have a better future.

2. Try to stay in one area. Kids need to be able to expect the same things everyday. This will help incentivize long term positive things, such as building lasting stable friendships.

It doesn't matter how harsh the environment. If you can make it stable and predictable, you're settibg your children up for success. They don't have to have the same disease of the mind, you do.

Thoughts?

Well, having also grown up in low-income neighborhoods. I can say I agree with some of your reasons why you believe poverty to be a mental illness. Furthermore, there are other issues I feel you may not have taken into consideration. As for your ideas on how to fix the issue, I would say I agree with only 1 of your societle ideas, and both of your family ideas.

You lead me to believe that you are a supporter of big government. Is this true?
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 2:49:10 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 8:51:57 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow. I've caught crap from people for saying that black people are more likely to be violent, lazy and short sighted. This is because they are disproportionately poor, and in unstable environments. The typical responce is to call me racist, or say I'm making up the facts. Why don't you guys just explain the effects of poverty on the mind? Probably because you are so busy making excuses for the poor, and dismissing the effects of poverty on poor people.

Why poor people are impulsive

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. When I was a kid, I got a job making about 10 bucks a day for 2 or 3 hours of work. In the times I did try to save, my money would be raided for beer money, a late rent payment or some other sort of emergency. It didn't take me long yo figure out the only way I was using my own money, was to spend it the second I got it. That's just one example, I'm sure you guys can think of a hundred others. After seeing only incentive for short term effort, and no incentive for long term goals, your brains neurons start firing differently than a normal person's. This isn't the type of learning that can take place, on an intellectual level. Unlearning this, must also occur on an emotional level. It's either too late for me, orbI need some more set backs, before getting my brain fixed.

I can't help it, I'm always going to have that impulsiveness. I'm always going to feel like a caged animal. Ready to strike, unable to sit patiently. If I raise my child in a stable home and incentivize longterm thinking he can have the proper mentality, but I can't. Don't feel sorry for me Though. I have a glaring and obvious weakness that people from a better background don't have, I also have some strengths. There is a reason you see people from really poor backgrounds, become billionaires more often than from a middle class background. (not including the extremely wealthy and inherited wealth here)

What can be Done

The main focus of this was to show the reasons why poor people act the way they do. I also wanted to give some people a better weapon to use against people who say a disproportionate amount of blacks are violent, lazy and impulsive. Maybe instead of denying that these traits exist, when it's plainly obvious they do (studies prove it, but enough anecdotal evidence is fine, idiots), they can explain how poverty causes a disease of the mind. Now besides helping to better inform people instead of dismissing obvious facts, here is what else can be done, by society.

1. Provide a basic minimum income. We are coming to the poibt in time, where we should start planning on how to replace ourselves with machines anyway, just provide the BMI, so poor people have a steady stream of income to look forward to. The BMI sgould also be enough to meet everyone's most basic needs.

2. Stop ruining people's lives over petty crimes. We have a justice system that is too harsh with petty criminals and not harsh enough on dangerous criminals. There is no reason that prisons should ve over run with non violent drug offendors. Release these people, it is better to have a subpar father, then an absent one, stop contributing to the cycle of poverty.

3. This is something new I've been looking into, but let's destroy predominantly poor areas. Whether it be a trailor park or the ghetto. Requiring every community no matter how rich, to allow for a certain portionbof poor people. Enough so as to get these people in a more stable environment, but not so much as that it reduces tge quality of living, for other tenants. I hear other parts of the world, have experimented with this, with some success.

What families can do

1. Give your kids an allowance, and don't rob them when you need a pack of cigarettes or to pay rent. Just suffer, so that they may have a better future.

2. Try to stay in one area. Kids need to be able to expect the same things everyday. This will help incentivize long term positive things, such as building lasting stable friendships.

It doesn't matter how harsh the environment. If you can make it stable and predictable, you're settibg your children up for success. They don't have to have the same disease of the mind, you do.

Thoughts?

Here is where you go wrong. You say Blacks are lazy and that it is learned behavior. However, black has nothing to do with it. You haven't proven a causation based upon race. Just because one racial type is more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic environment, in that case due to history of oppression, doesnt mean that the effect you post is not applicable to all races in the same environment.

So stop trashing a race when race has nothing to do with it ther than past oppression against them.
Race may not be a major point but it has some relevance due in part to the fact that we categorize things in life. There is no way to say other animals do this.

Secondly, what you are posting has to do with what is called lotus of control. Liberals have understood for years that poverty is not just fixed when every poor person decides to "work hard". There are real cultural and subconscious changes that needs to change first.
Yea I agree that cultural and subconscious changes need to take place, but I don't believe it should be forced on people. At least, that is what it seems to be as of late.
furthermore what kind of changes would be the next questions.
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 3:02:29 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 9:31:10 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 2/28/2016 9:05:18 PM, Wylted wrote:
Here is where you go wrong. You say Blacks are lazy and that it is learned behavior. However, black has nothing to do with it. You haven't proven a causation based upon race. Just because one racial type is more likely to be in a lower socioeconomic environment, in that case due to history of oppression, doesnt mean that the effect you post is not applicable to all races in the same environment.

I actually spent that entire post, saying it is applicable to all people. I also explained that blacks are disproportionately poor. If blacks are disproportionately poor, and therefore have a disproportionate problem with impulse control, then saying that they disproportionately are lazy and violent as a result of that impulse control, I'm not lying. The problem is that people deny that these disproportionate traits exist. Not too long ago, I made a poat explaining that blacks are disproportionately lazy at work, and instead of talking about the reasons for that, people went into denial, that that reality existed. It is not racist to say a disproportionate amounts of blacks are lazy, especially when I've backed it up with facts. To say a disproportiinate amount of blacks are lazy is not a racist statement, as I have explained. The problem is that racists, think it is racist, because their mind shuts down, after they hear the word black.

So stop trashing a race when race has nothing to do with it ther than past oppression against them.

Ic the past oppression cause racial discrepencies to happen now, we shouldn't stick our head in the sand and ignore those discrepencies. You hurt the black community, when you fail to realize, that it's people face problems of violence the typical white person, does not have to experience.

secondly, what you are posting has to do with what is called lotus of control. Liberals have understood for years that poverty is not just fixed when every poor person decides to "work hard". There are real cultural and subconscious changes that needs to change first.

I just gave suggestions at the bottom, which are in our lotus of control to support.

You need to understand the distinction. You could also say that right handed people are more likely to have less impulse control. You would be right in that a majority of those with bad impulse control are right handed, but you would be wrong assigning causation to right handedness.
I like this point

Causation and correlation are very different things. You are perpetuating stereotypes. Black is only important when considering how a minority population was so oppressed that as a group many were forced into poverty and did not have equal opportunity to pursuit life liberty and happiness. Now you realize that "working harder" is not a solution, what do you do to help people caught in this poverty trap?
I am a firm believer that life isn't fair. I play the cards I was dealt. The black community isn't the only group that has been dealt crappy hands. There are many other groups of people. Take into consideration poor white families, there are many reasons as to why they are poor as well. The Asian community has had to deal with its' share oppression of different forms aswell. If we are to truly help people we need to start at the smallest level. The individual. A chain is only as strong as it's weakest link. Strengthen the individual and its' bonds to others you strenghthen the whole.
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 3:26:59 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/28/2016 9:50:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
You need to understand the distinction. You could also say that right handed people are more likely to have less impulse control. You would be right in that a majority of those with bad impulse control are right handed, but you would be wrong assigning causation to right handedness.

That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty.
You actually said the same thing twice here. If it is simplified by the quantifiers, you basically said, some people in poverty are right handed and switched it around the second time.
And no, saying that a disproportionate amount of black people are lazy and violent, does not say that, the color of their skin is the causation. It's merely pointing out a correlation. You just assume the person telling you that is assuming a causation, even when they never state it.

Causation and correlation are very different things. You are perpetuating stereotypes. Black is only important when considering how a minority population was so oppressed that as a group many were forced into poverty and did not have equal opportunity to pursuit life liberty and happiness. Now you realize that "working harder" is not a solution, what do you do to help people caught in this poverty trap?

I gave a list of solutions. Please reread the op. I do acknowledge that "work harder" is simplistic advice and really doesn't address the problem, but on the other hand it's silly to dismiss the value of hard work. Anybody in America can escape poverty if they set their mind to it.
I agree with this one.
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 3:34:12 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 11:26:16 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:56:46 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:23:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.

Do you want to debate this, that is just one of about 20 studies that indicate this. Not only that, it's just common sense to know that people with a lifetime of benefiting from short term thinking, over longterm thinking, are going to lean towards short term thinking, more then those with the opposite results.

I just disagree with this "disease of the mind" idea. People will use short term thinking when they need to, sure. People in poverty are forced to use it more often. What I disagree with is that this is a disease of the person rather than of the circumstance. Actually, we probably agree on this. I'm actually tired, so I can't think straight. Let's just say we agree. It feels nice.

lol okay. I'm just saying that the fibers in our brain get used to certain actions,and get stronger in that respect, making it harder to make decisions out of your comfort zone.
Sounds like you are talking about neuron paths.
Wylted
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2/29/2016 4:06:42 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
Well, having also grown up in low-income neighborhoods. I can say I agree with some of your reasons why you believe poverty to be a mental illness. Furthermore, there are other issues I feel you may not have taken into consideration. As for your ideas on how to fix the issue, I would say I agree with only 1 of your societle ideas, and both of your family ideas.

What issues did I not consider. This post was only meant to explore a single issue, so I'm not sure how it would indicate that I would miss another.

You lead me to believe that you are a supporter of big government. Is this true?

No, I actually think the BMI would decrease the size of government. The other ideal, is just one I've been flirting with
Wylted
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2/29/2016 4:12:02 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 3:26:59 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/28/2016 9:50:15 PM, Wylted wrote:
You need to understand the distinction. You could also say that right handed people are more likely to have less impulse control. You would be right in that a majority of those with bad impulse control are right handed, but you would be wrong assigning causation to right handedness.

That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty.
You actually said the same thing twice here. If it is simplified by the quantifiers, you basically said, some people in poverty are right handed and switched it around the second time.

Nope. The majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed, while the majority of people are left handed. I did not say the same thing twice, you just misread it.
And no, saying that a disproportionate amount of black people are lazy and violent, does not say that, the color of their skin is the causation. It's merely pointing out a correlation. You just assume the person telling you that is assuming a causation, even when they never state it.

Causation and correlation are very different things. You are perpetuating stereotypes. Black is only important when considering how a minority population was so oppressed that as a group many were forced into poverty and did not have equal opportunity to pursuit life liberty and happiness. Now you realize that "working harder" is not a solution, what do you do to help people caught in this poverty trap?

I gave a list of solutions. Please reread the op. I do acknowledge that "work harder" is simplistic advice and really doesn't address the problem, but on the other hand it's silly to dismiss the value of hard work. Anybody in America can escape poverty if they set their mind to it.
I agree with this one.
Wylted
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2/29/2016 4:12:58 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 3:34:12 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/29/2016 11:26:16 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:56:46 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:23:20 AM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 3:47:50 AM, Hoppi wrote:
At 2/28/2016 6:42:19 PM, Wylted wrote:
Poverty is a disease of the mind. I've read several psychological studies verifying it in many different ways. I don't feel like digging up my citations, but I'll provide a single one we can work with to get you started, if you choose to look into this.
https://www.sciencedaily.com...

The cited study shows that poor people are more likely to be impulsive, and by extension don't think much past tomorrow.

No, it really doesn't show that. You can't conclude too much from these lab-based pretend-scenario studies. All it showed was that priming people affects their impulsivity, and that people from poor backgrounds are more affected by economic-related priming. Of course. It's more real to them than people from wealthy backgrounds. You could pick any kind of priming and it would affect people who had experiences with that particular thing more than it would affect other people.

To jump from that and say that poor people have lower impulse control because of a disease of the mind is just wrong.

Do you want to debate this, that is just one of about 20 studies that indicate this. Not only that, it's just common sense to know that people with a lifetime of benefiting from short term thinking, over longterm thinking, are going to lean towards short term thinking, more then those with the opposite results.

I just disagree with this "disease of the mind" idea. People will use short term thinking when they need to, sure. People in poverty are forced to use it more often. What I disagree with is that this is a disease of the person rather than of the circumstance. Actually, we probably agree on this. I'm actually tired, so I can't think straight. Let's just say we agree. It feels nice.

lol okay. I'm just saying that the fibers in our brain get used to certain actions,and get stronger in that respect, making it harder to make decisions out of your comfort zone.
Sounds like you are talking about neuron paths.

I probably am
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 7:07:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 4:06:42 PM, Wylted wrote:
Well, having also grown up in low-income neighborhoods. I can say I agree with some of your reasons why you believe poverty to be a mental illness. Furthermore, there are other issues I feel you may not have taken into consideration. As for your ideas on how to fix the issue, I would say I agree with only 1 of your societle ideas, and both of your family ideas.

What issues did I not consider. This post was only meant to explore a single issue, so I'm not sure how it would indicate that I would miss another.

Correct me if I am mistaken, the issue is fixing poverty of low-income communities right? If so, the overlook isn't only how people form spending habits but outside influences ranging from lack of role models to simple peer influence.

You lead me to believe that you are a supporter of big government. Is this true?

No, I actually think the BMI would decrease the size of government. The other ideal, is just one I've been flirting with

I see, please explain this further for my understanding.
Wylted
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2/29/2016 7:56:08 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 7:07:32 PM, liltankjj wrote:
At 2/29/2016 4:06:42 PM, Wylted wrote:
Well, having also grown up in low-income neighborhoods. I can say I agree with some of your reasons why you believe poverty to be a mental illness. Furthermore, there are other issues I feel you may not have taken into consideration. As for your ideas on how to fix the issue, I would say I agree with only 1 of your societle ideas, and both of your family ideas.

What issues did I not consider. This post was only meant to explore a single issue, so I'm not sure how it would indicate that I would miss another.

Correct me if I am mistaken, the issue is fixing poverty of low-income communities right? If so, the overlook isn't only how people form spending habits but outside influences ranging from lack of role models to simple peer influence.

That has nothing to do with the op. The op is about one thing that causes the disease of the mind.

You lead me to believe that you are a supporter of big government. Is this true?

No, I actually think the BMI would decrease the size of government. The other ideal, is just one I've been flirting with

I see, please explain this further for my understanding.
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 8:46:25 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty.
You actually said the same thing twice here. If it is simplified by the quantifiers, you basically said, some people in poverty are right handed and switched it around the second time.

Nope. The majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed, while the majority of people are left handed. I did not say the same thing twice, you just misread it.

Ok, here it seems like you've said something different. but you actualy reworded what you have said earlier. Maybe it's the way you are wording it that is mistaken. I am checking your logic. "the majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed," By useing only quantifiers here you simply said majority (quantifier simplified into some) people are right handed while a majority (some) people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority (some) people living in poverty are right handed. This is exactly like what was said at first. This has made it harder to understand what you are saying.

I'll try making a Venn diagram and show you what I mean if I can post one.
Wylted
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2/29/2016 10:08:37 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 8:46:25 PM, liltankjj wrote:
That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty.
You actually said the same thing twice here. If it is simplified by the quantifiers, you basically said, some people in poverty are right handed and switched it around the second time.

Nope. The majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed, while the majority of people are left handed. I did not say the same thing twice, you just misread it.

Ok, here it seems like you've said something different. but you actualy reworded what you have said earlier. Maybe it's the way you are wording it that is mistaken. I am checking your logic. "the majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed," By useing only quantifiers here you simply said majority (quantifier simplified into some) people are right handed while a majority (some) people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority (some) people living in poverty are right handed. This is exactly like what was said at first. This has made it harder to understand what you are saying.

I'll try making a Venn diagram and show you what I mean if I can post one.

How is it the same? In one example the majority of people in poverty are left handed, and the other one said that the majority in poverty were right handed?
liltankjj
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2/29/2016 10:44:34 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 2/29/2016 10:08:37 PM, Wylted wrote:
At 2/29/2016 8:46:25 PM, liltankjj wrote:
That wpuld mean the majority of people in povert are right handed, not that the majority of right handers arebliving in poverty.
You actually said the same thing twice here. If it is simplified by the quantifiers, you basically said, some people in poverty are right handed and switched it around the second time.

Nope. The majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed, while the majority of people are left handed. I did not say the same thing twice, you just misread it.

Ok, here it seems like you've said something different. but you actualy reworded what you have said earlier. Maybe it's the way you are wording it that is mistaken. I am checking your logic. "the majority of people can be right handed, while a majority of people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority of people living in poverty can be right handed," By useing only quantifiers here you simply said majority (quantifier simplified into some) people are right handed while a majority (some) people in poverty are left handed. Or a majority (some) people living in poverty are right handed. This is exactly like what was said at first. This has made it harder to understand what you are saying.

I'll try making a Venn diagram and show you what I mean if I can post one.

How is it the same? In one example the majority of people in poverty are left handed, and the other one said that the majority in poverty were right handed?

let's try it this way subject (S), predicate (P), Quantifier (all, no, or some), and copula (linking words such as "are", "are not"). This is just testing the logic.
1. some S are P (Majority of people in poverty are left handed)
2. some S are P (Majority of people in poverty are right handed)

As you can see the structure for both arguments are the same so you said the same thing earlier. Not saying it isn't true just that you said the same thing twice. It made it hard to understand your point.