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RFD: Jayshay v. Rosalie (Corporal Punishment)

YYW
Posts: 36,294
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3/1/2016 2:09:47 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
I. Resolution

http://www.debate.org...

"Domestic corporal punishment is always immoral."

II. Burdens

Burdens are identical, equal, and no debater therefore has any burden greater or less than any other debater. This is to ensure fundamental fairness among the debaters, and purge the RFD of systemic bias in the form of deference to the status quo.

Importantly, domestic corporal punishment is defined here as "the intentional infliction of physical pain by a parent/guardian upon a child, meant to punish him/her for poor behavior." It is the morality of this activity that is at issue in this debate.

III. Arguments

PRO: PRO argues that corporal punishment is meant to teach children consequences for their actions, but that this is ineffective because children just remember the "beating portion" such that all that is understood is "if I do this again, I will get beaten." This leads, PRO contends--without evidence--to a mindset of avoiding certain actions to avoid physical pain at the expense of moral understanding. PRO's second argument is that frequent use of CP with children of three years of age leads to some increased aggression in various forms (e.g. increased tendency to hit) at 5 years among the spanked children, versus the non-spanked children of similar ages. Presumably, and I'm being charitable here, spanking children is counterproductive? PRO had the warrant, but not the impact. PRO also suggests that CP is associated with a long term consequences like mental illness, drug abuse, etc. (I'm dubious of these. He didn't provide me enough reasons to believe them. How much more likely are spanked children to abuse drugs than non-spanked children? What is the amount of spanking that causes this to occur? Do these outcomes vary based on frequency of CP? What are the other factors that were ruled out? All of these questions, I'm left without knowing. Conclusory statements don't get you far with me.) PRO concludes that "there are alternatives" but that's pretty much it.

CON: CON first argues that CP is necessary for love, respect, good decisions, self control, accountability, the maintenance of standards, and strength all of which are mostly supported with conclusory truisms. CON's second argument is that spanking is not abusive, mainly, because of differences in CP's administration (i.e. just because you're spanking doesn't mean you're inflicting lasting injury). CON's third category of arguments focus on mental health in two respects, (a) there is insufficient evidence for inference of the causal link between spanking and the parade of woes as identified by opponents of CP, and (b) variances in method and frequency of administration undercut the gravity of correlational analysis's analytical force.

IV. Clash

This debate involves a question of morality, and whether CP is moral in particular. Various arguments are presented by each side, and I must weigh the arguments according to their relative strength. The evidence is a wash on both sides, so voting is made on the arguments on their face alone.

PRO suggests in later rounds that spanking leads to abuse, but with no evidence whatsoever. It's a warrantless claim, and his conflating garden variety spanking with child abuse is reaching and therefore not compelling. CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective.

V. Outcome

Truisms and weak correlational arguments hold identical weight with me, but I am looking here for something that will persuade me reasonably of whether domestic CP (i.e. spanking) is *always* immoral. Always means, as the name suggests, "never not." So, PRO's got to give me something to believe that it's never immoral, but PRO even cited in his first round of argumentation a source which suggests on its face the general morality of spanking, or at least discipline. Moreover, CON articulated many ostensible "benefits" of spanking that more or less went not rebutted which--though I loathe to vote for debates on this basis--becomes the foundation of this RFD.

Moreover, CON's analysis with respect to negating the impact of PRO's mental health points tips the scales sufficiently in her favor. CON wins and PRO loses because PRO did not present reasonably substantiated arguments with sufficient persuasive force to support his contention that spanking is *always* immoral. CON failed to respond in most respects to PRO's arguments from necessity (love, respect, good decisions, self control, accountability, the maintenance of standards, and strength all of which are mostly supported with conclusory truisms), and never replied to CON's rebuttals regarding the lack of causality between spanking and negative mental health outcomes. Thus, I vote CON.

VI. Comments

I strongly suggest structuring your debates more clearly. Categorize your arguments according to kind, and structure them accordingly. Likewise, give reasons that actually support your arguments, rather than simply offering "stream of consciousness" type analysis.

Arguments with regard to morality require moral principals. For example, "it is wrong to inflict physical pain when not necessary." or "parental discipline should be efficient." or something like that. What you do is you articulate the rule, then explain how spanking applies to that rule, and tell me thereafter whether spanking is moral or immoral on that basis. This debate lacked cognizable structure, which made judging it more cumbersome than I generally prefer.
Tsar of DDO
Rosalie
Posts: 4,612
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3/1/2016 2:11:37 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Thank you for reading, and voting.
" We need more videos of cat's playing the piano on the internet" - My art professor.

"Criticism is easier to take when you realize that the only people who aren't criticized are those who don't take risks." - Donald Trump

Officially Mrs. 16Kadams 8-30-16
JayShay
Posts: 6
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3/1/2016 2:48:32 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
Thanks for your vote. I appreciate you taking the time to critique our debate!

My only concern with your comments is when you wrote:

"CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective."

It seems to me that you are implying that just because the Bible says DCP is ok means that it is ok, which is incredibly biased as I see you are Christian. If I have misinterpreted your comment, I apologize.
YYW
Posts: 36,294
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3/1/2016 5:22:05 AM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 2:48:32 AM, JayShay wrote:
Thanks for your vote. I appreciate you taking the time to critique our debate!

My only concern with your comments is when you wrote:

"CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective."

It seems to me that you are implying that just because the Bible says DCP is ok means that it is ok, which is incredibly biased as I see you are Christian. If I have misinterpreted your comment, I apologize.

Well you obviously did misinterpret the comment, and so in apparently at least two ways. I don't care about the source... I care about the argument, and that part of the argument strengthened CON's side. Frankly, I was disappointed with sources on both sides. You need to lay out how your results were arrived at, lest they have no more credibility with me than truisms of (misquoted) bible verses.

The reality is that if I was biased, I would have emphasized that the whole notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was grievously mistranslated; the bible does not command parents to beat their children, it commands them to teach their children right from wrong.
Tsar of DDO
JayShay
Posts: 6
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3/1/2016 1:55:21 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 5:22:05 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 2:48:32 AM, JayShay wrote:
Thanks for your vote. I appreciate you taking the time to critique our debate!

My only concern with your comments is when you wrote:

"CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective."

It seems to me that you are implying that just because the Bible says DCP is ok means that it is ok, which is incredibly biased as I see you are Christian. If I have misinterpreted your comment, I apologize.

Well you obviously did misinterpret the comment, and so in apparently at least two ways. I don't care about the source... I care about the argument, and that part of the argument strengthened CON's side. Frankly, I was disappointed with sources on both sides. You need to lay out how your results were arrived at, lest they have no more credibility with me than truisms of (misquoted) bible verses.

The reality is that if I was biased, I would have emphasized that the whole notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was grievously mistranslated; the bible does not command parents to beat their children, it commands them to teach their children right from wrong.

The Bible actually does command parents to beat their child. It also says that if your son is disobedient, stone him to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

Anyways, I thank you for taking the time to write about our debate!
YYW
Posts: 36,294
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3/1/2016 2:00:18 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 1:55:21 PM, JayShay wrote:
At 3/1/2016 5:22:05 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 2:48:32 AM, JayShay wrote:
Thanks for your vote. I appreciate you taking the time to critique our debate!

My only concern with your comments is when you wrote:

"CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective."

It seems to me that you are implying that just because the Bible says DCP is ok means that it is ok, which is incredibly biased as I see you are Christian. If I have misinterpreted your comment, I apologize.

Well you obviously did misinterpret the comment, and so in apparently at least two ways. I don't care about the source... I care about the argument, and that part of the argument strengthened CON's side. Frankly, I was disappointed with sources on both sides. You need to lay out how your results were arrived at, lest they have no more credibility with me than truisms of (misquoted) bible verses.

The reality is that if I was biased, I would have emphasized that the whole notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was grievously mistranslated; the bible does not command parents to beat their children, it commands them to teach their children right from wrong.

The Bible actually does command parents to beat their child. It also says that if your son is disobedient, stone him to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

That is an incorrect translation, and stoning is not beating.

Anyways, I thank you for taking the time to write about our debate!
Tsar of DDO
JayShay
Posts: 6
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3/1/2016 2:01:32 PM
Posted: 9 months ago
At 3/1/2016 2:00:18 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 1:55:21 PM, JayShay wrote:
At 3/1/2016 5:22:05 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/1/2016 2:48:32 AM, JayShay wrote:
Thanks for your vote. I appreciate you taking the time to critique our debate!

My only concern with your comments is when you wrote:

"CON later relies on scripture from Proverbs, to directly contradict PRO's assertions that spanking is both immoral and ineffective."

It seems to me that you are implying that just because the Bible says DCP is ok means that it is ok, which is incredibly biased as I see you are Christian. If I have misinterpreted your comment, I apologize.

Well you obviously did misinterpret the comment, and so in apparently at least two ways. I don't care about the source... I care about the argument, and that part of the argument strengthened CON's side. Frankly, I was disappointed with sources on both sides. You need to lay out how your results were arrived at, lest they have no more credibility with me than truisms of (misquoted) bible verses.

The reality is that if I was biased, I would have emphasized that the whole notion of "spare the rod, spoil the child" was grievously mistranslated; the bible does not command parents to beat their children, it commands them to teach their children right from wrong.

The Bible actually does command parents to beat their child. It also says that if your son is disobedient, stone him to death (Deuteronomy 21:18-21).

That is an incorrect translation, and stoning is not beating.

Anyways, I thank you for taking the time to write about our debate!

What is the correct translation then?