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Is St Patrick's day cultural appropriation?

lamerde
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3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.
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Jovian
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3/13/2016 11:07:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM, lamerde wrote:
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.

Really? Well, I've only seen it been used on things like warbonnets. Things of cultures performed by people not seen as traditionally "white". Although, the same rhetorics used on using warbonnets could be applied on dressing in green and having an Irish accent too, the latter one never condemned because Irish are "white", why that would matter.
lamerde
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3/13/2016 11:33:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:07:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM, lamerde wrote:
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.

Really? Well, I've only seen it been used on things like warbonnets. Things of cultures performed by people not seen as traditionally "white". Although, the same rhetorics used on using warbonnets could be applied on dressing in green and having an Irish accent too, the latter one never condemned because Irish are "white", why that would matter.

Some people would say cultural appropriation is the act of engaging in any other cultural practice. What most people call cultural appropriation now was once called cultural misappropriation.

When most scholars use cultural appropriation now, it's not simply about engaging in another cultural practice. There are elements of power involved - particularly, the original cultural group being denigrated for engaging in the behaviour while the dominant (i.e., white) group can do it and be praised for it, or even credited with its origin.

I use the definition in the last paragraph and in that case, I wouldn't consider St. Patrick's Day appropriation.
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lamerde
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3/13/2016 11:37:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:07:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM, lamerde wrote:
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.

Really? Well, I've only seen it been used on things like warbonnets. Things of cultures performed by people not seen as traditionally "white". Although, the same rhetorics used on using warbonnets could be applied on dressing in green and having an Irish accent too, the latter one never condemned because Irish are "white", why that would matter.

Moreover, condemned by who? If the Irish are not condemning it, why should anyone else care?
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Jovian
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3/14/2016 12:01:22 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:33:19 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:07:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM, lamerde wrote:
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.

Really? Well, I've only seen it been used on things like warbonnets. Things of cultures performed by people not seen as traditionally "white". Although, the same rhetorics used on using warbonnets could be applied on dressing in green and having an Irish accent too, the latter one never condemned because Irish are "white", why that would matter.

Some people would say cultural appropriation is the act of engaging in any other cultural practice. What most people call cultural appropriation now was once called cultural misappropriation.

Alright. I have never been familiar with the verb appropriate, more than in this context.

When most scholars use cultural appropriation now, it's not simply about engaging in another cultural practice. There are elements of power involved - particularly, the original cultural group being denigrated for engaging in the behaviour while the dominant (i.e., white) group can do it and be praised for it, or even credited with its origin.

I see. I have although not seen a single one condemning Native Americans for their warbonnets, rather the opposite. Now I have not even been to the US, but I see people regard those features in the same way people regard features of the Roman or the Ancient Egyptian cultures. High, that is. Thus, at least how I've seen it, people put on Native American clothing for the same reasons they dress as gladiators.

Both of them can be used quite unseriously though. And I can understand why Native Americans would see such a usage as degrading, but then is it better when people act Irish? Most certainly not. In almost everyone of those cases, being Irish = being a drunkard with a funny accent.

I use the definition in the last paragraph and in that case, I wouldn't consider St. Patrick's Day appropriation.

Moreover, condemned by who?

Most people who talk about cultural appropriation on the Internet. I have never seen them object to people who even unseriously use cultural features of "white" people. Like wearing kilts.

If the Irish are not condemning it, why should anyone else care?

Good point. The rhetorics about "minority culture being mocked/used unseriously by the majority" still applies though, until they move the goalposts and say "OK not these or these though".
lamerde
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3/14/2016 12:39:32 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/14/2016 12:01:22 AM, Jovian wrote:

Alright. I have never been familiar with the verb appropriate, more than in this context.

Fair enough.

I see. I have although not seen a single one condemning Native Americans for their warbonnets, rather the opposite. Now I have not even been to the US, but I see people regard those features in the same way people regard features of the Roman or the Ancient Egyptian cultures. High, that is. Thus, at least how I've seen it, people put on Native American clothing for the same reasons they dress as gladiators.

I'm not sure what you mean by the first part - are you saying that Native Americans appropriated their warbonnets? If so, I'm not familiar with that.

I'm not sure that gladiators are still a thing that exist (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong), but the reason appropriation of Native American clothing is a touchy issue is because of the history (and present reality) of colonialism. These cultural practices that both the American and Canadian governments tried to stamp out through stealing child, raping children, and beating their culture out of them are now celebrated only when a non-Native person (i.e., their colonizer) does it.

As I type out the abuses of the government on Aboriginal peoples I'm aware that it sounds unbelievable, so here is a source: https://en.wikipedia.org...(Canada)

The Canadian government has officially apologized for it and recognizes that it occurred.

Again, the issue here is the present-day reality of systemic racism toward and oppression of this particular group of people while individuals from the dominant group (even innocently) partake in a culture that they have a history of taking from and destroying. I'm way oversimplifying it but yeah lol.

Both of them can be used quite unseriously though. And I can understand why Native Americans would see such a usage as degrading, but then is it better when people act Irish? Most certainly not. In almost everyone of those cases, being Irish = being a drunkard with a funny accent.

I'm not sure that people are "acting Irish," but I've never participated in St. Patrick's Day myself. The only people I know who really care about it are white/Asian (many of the white people with Irish origins).

Most people who talk about cultural appropriation on the Internet. I have never seen them object to people who even unseriously use cultural features of "white" people. Like wearing kilts.

Good point. The rhetorics about "minority culture being mocked/used unseriously by the majority" still applies though, until they move the goalposts and say "OK not these or these though".

This is interesting and I'm not sure where I stand, though I'm inclined to not care if the target group doesn't care. Most people who talk of appropriation are condemning things that the target group are condemning. It's black people condemning those appropriating "black culture," Aboriginals condemning appropriation relative to their cultures, and other groups (including whites) condemning appropriation that the target groups have voiced themselves are problematic.

If there was general consensus among black people that a particular situation is not appropriation, I'm not sure it would make sense for a white person or some other outgroup member to then condemn the action.

In the same way, I wouldn't condemn people celebrating St. Patrick's Day as appropriation if Irish people themselves don't have a problem with it. I have too many things to be indignant about to be indignant over something that doesn't affect me in anyway and doesn't bother anyone lol.
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Diqiucun_Cunmin
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3/15/2016 6:44:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/13/2016 11:33:19 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:07:19 PM, Jovian wrote:
At 3/13/2016 11:02:07 PM, lamerde wrote:
You should define cultural appropriation because it can mean a lot of things.

Really? Well, I've only seen it been used on things like warbonnets. Things of cultures performed by people not seen as traditionally "white". Although, the same rhetorics used on using warbonnets could be applied on dressing in green and having an Irish accent too, the latter one never condemned because Irish are "white", why that would matter.

Some people would say cultural appropriation is the act of engaging in any other cultural practice. What most people call cultural appropriation now was once called cultural misappropriation.
I'm not familiar with sociology, but I think that in general, when we use the verb 'appropriate', it carries a negative connotation. Maybe this popular usage has slipped into academia to cause this change.
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lamerde
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3/15/2016 6:53:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 6:44:26 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:

I'm not familiar with sociology, but I think that in general, when we use the verb 'appropriate', it carries a negative connotation. Maybe this popular usage has slipped into academia to cause this change.

I can't remember where I read that so I may be wrong. I know that now it definitely has a negative connotation (at least in Psychology and other disciplines) but for some reason I have it in my brain that it wasn't always that way :p I've heard/read people use the term "misappropriation" instead.
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lamerde
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3/15/2016 7:07:26 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The reason I asked for a definition though is because some people think Beyonce having blonde hair is appropriation of white culture so I wanted to make sure we were working from the same definition.
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Jovian
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3/15/2016 11:51:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/15/2016 7:07:26 PM, lamerde wrote:
The reason I asked for a definition though is because some people think Beyonce having blonde hair is appropriation of white culture so I wanted to make sure we were working from the same definition.

Even black Melanesians have blonde hair sometimes. I have although not heard anything appropriated from Europeans being condemned. Wearing kimonos although have I seen been condemned, and I haven't heard of many Japanese complaining on that. Sometimes it feels like: " "White" person selecting to wear something from a culture outside of Europe, in order to express themselves = They are doing cultural appropriation." And this doesn't always have to be cases where someone wears Indian feathers on Halloween parties. It could be someone seriously wearing something too. So, I guess Europeans should be forbidden to express themselves by the means of originating from outside of Europe?
lamerde
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3/17/2016 9:05:45 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
By the way, all my Irish friends today - "Why aren't you wearing green?!"

Anyway, I don't know that a group can appropriate themselves. http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

At 3/15/2016 11:51:38 PM, Jovian wrote:

Even black Melanesians have blonde hair sometimes.

Yeah, I know there are black people with genetically blond hair, which makes the argument all the more silly. But more than that, it can't be appropriation because 1) no one credits Beyonce with being the originator of blond hair, 2) no one claims Beyonce is "doing" blond hair better than the white girls who have been doing it, and 3) no one marginalizes people with blond hair.

I have although not heard anything appropriated from Europeans being condemned.

Like what? First you would have to show that it falls under the definition of appropriation (as I mentioned earlier, the definition I and other academics use is predicated on the idea of power dynamics). In any case, you can't really call something appropriation if you forced others to do as you do. It's nonsensical to invade someone, force them to be like you over hundreds of years in order to succeed and in some cases, survive, and then claim they're appropriating your culture. Nobody asked for colonization.

Wearing kimonos although have I seen been condemned, and I haven't heard of many Japanese complaining on that. Sometimes it feels like: " "White" person selecting to wear something from a culture outside of Europe, in order to express themselves = They are doing cultural appropriation." And this doesn't always have to be cases where someone wears Indian feathers on Halloween parties. It could be someone seriously wearing something too. So, I guess Europeans should be forbidden to express themselves by the means of originating from outside of Europe?

We seem to be working from two different definitions of appropriation.
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Jovian
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3/17/2016 9:42:32 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 9:05:45 PM, lamerde wrote:
By the way, all my Irish friends today - "Why aren't you wearing green?!"

Anyway, I don't know that a group can appropriate themselves. http://www.huffingtonpost.com...

Happy St Patrick's day!

At 3/15/2016 11:51:38 PM, Jovian wrote:

Even black Melanesians have blonde hair sometimes.

Yeah, I know there are black people with genetically blond hair, which makes the argument all the more silly. But more than that, it can't be appropriation because 1) no one credits Beyonce with being the originator of blond hair,

No one although credits white people for being the first ones with warbonnets. People say "oh they're wearing those cool feathers which the Native Americans had".

2) no one claims Beyonce is "doing" blond hair better than the white girls who have been doing it

What cultural appropriation has been credited as better than the original?

and 3) no one marginalizes people with blond hair.

I wouldn't jump to conclusions that quick though. "White" people wouldn't have any good chance at all in reaching the parliament or high posts in general belonging to several countries. Regarding indigenous people who would dye their hair blond, I would even guess this practice would in some countries be equalized to how not many people in any country would like a pink-haired president.

I have although not heard anything appropriated from Europeans being condemned.

Like what? First you would have to show that it falls under the definition of appropriation (as I mentioned earlier, the definition I and other academics use is predicated on the idea of power dynamics). In any case, you can't really call something appropriation if you forced others to do as you do. It's nonsensical to invade someone, force them to be like you over hundreds of years in order to succeed and in some cases, survive, and then claim they're appropriating your culture. Nobody asked for colonization.

It's true, but since Ireland was colonized and oppressed by the UK for many centuries. So shouldn't this be applied at least in UK? And the Irish-Americans weren't treated that good at all. They were:

* not considered white
* marginalized
* even enslaved at some times from what I've heard.

And now Americans should dress in green and make jokes of the Irish being drunkards with a good conscience?

Colonization was horrible in many parts of the world, yes. But to my knowledge, none of my ancestors have been doing colonization. If I would do genealogy and find one, no responsibility at all would rest upon me anyway.

Wearing kimonos although have I seen been condemned, and I haven't heard of many Japanese complaining on that. Sometimes it feels like: " "White" person selecting to wear something from a culture outside of Europe, in order to express themselves = They are doing cultural appropriation." And this doesn't always have to be cases where someone wears Indian feathers on Halloween parties. It could be someone seriously wearing something too. So, I guess Europeans should be forbidden to express themselves by the means of originating from outside of Europe?

We seem to be working from two different definitions of appropriation.

I can't see how this answer should apply to the claim of how European people wearing kimonos for serious purposes should be condemned. Would you see anything wrong with "white" people wearing kimonos for example? The colonization aspect wouldn't apply here, Japan wasn't colonized.