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Is there a cycle of poverty?

Quadrunner
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3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
inferno
Posts: 10,549
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3/17/2016 8:51:54 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

No. Its a mindset issue. And it has to do with people not building infrastructure, formulating a vision, and investing in more capitalistic business opportunities and trade.
Quadrunner
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3/17/2016 9:01:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:51:54 PM, inferno wrote:

No. Its a mindset issue. And it has to do with people not building infrastructure, formulating a vision, and investing in more capitalistic business opportunities and trade.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I'd also like other perspectives. My school never taught me how to make long term plans. They only said I needed them. I believe they should have taught us about budgeting, liabilities, the value of knowledge and making our own insurance at the very least. Even without that though, if you work had and stay humble, that should be enough.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
inferno
Posts: 10,549
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3/17/2016 9:11:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 9:01:53 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/17/2016 8:51:54 PM, inferno wrote:

No. Its a mindset issue. And it has to do with people not building infrastructure, formulating a vision, and investing in more capitalistic business opportunities and trade.

That's exactly what I was thinking, but I'd also like other perspectives. My school never taught me how to make long term plans. They only said I needed them. I believe they should have taught us about budgeting, liabilities, the value of knowledge and making our own insurance at the very least. Even without that though, if you work had and stay humble, that should be enough.

You should invest in programs like stocks and bonds. And plan be pension programs. Study a trade that you can use in your community or spare time. Something that you feel passionate about. And get money and create and invention.
Fly
Posts: 2,042
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3/17/2016 9:29:58 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

Can you describe or point to the research you have done?
"You don't have a right to be a jerk."
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Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/18/2016 12:50:18 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

I second Fly's inquiry. I have a few articles I could send you about some of the underlying factors related to perpetual poverty, but I don't want to be redundant with what you've already read.

I don't have a lot of time to write out something more thoughtful, but your point about the role of luck is interesting. You note that having a series of ultimate disasters may be a reasonable justification for continued impoverishment. What must be considered is that the odds of unfortunate events occurring to an individual increases as their socioeconomic status decreases. For example, I grew up in poverty conditions and during my adolescence, my father died from preventable causes, my mother suffered a series of strokes, and our home was broken into and robbed at least five times. This may seem like a true string of unlikely events, but their causes are each directly tied to our lack of wealth and resources. Of course, each event also hindered our opportunities to advance economically.
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Wylted
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3/18/2016 12:59:51 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
I'm writing a book on the cycle of poverty in the style of Malcolm Gladwell. I think I have a unique perspective. I can't wait to share it with people
Quadrunner
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3/18/2016 7:41:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I have a few articles I could send you about some of the underlying factors related to perpetual poverty, but I don't want to be redundant with what you've already read.

Your point about the role of luck is interesting. You note that having a series of ultimate disasters may be a reasonable justification for continued impoverishment. What must be considered is that the odds of unfortunate events occurring to an individual increases as their socioeconomic status decreases. For example, I grew up in poverty conditions and during my adolescence, my father died from preventable causes, my mother suffered a series of strokes, and our home was broken into and robbed at least five times. This may seem like a true string of unlikely events, but their causes are each directly tied to our lack of wealth and resources. Of course, each event also hindered our opportunities to advance economically.

First I'd like to say that I usually read statistics, and research the snowball effect, where being poor suppresses growth. I've little knowledge on anything beyond that, and personal experience.

Personal standards: I'll be perfectly happy and relatively unstressed living with anything over $10 an hour 40 hours a week. Basically if I can pull more than 18 g's a year, I'll be stretching a little thin and might be semi-prone to financial impacts, but I'll be happy and have a solid contribution to savings to weather out what comes, and hopefully avoid being impoverished to begin with. If I pull less than 18 g's a year I generally need to start making hard (for me) sacrifices in my area so I consider myself to be at the poverty line, all the way down to 11 or 12 thousand which I consider to be my local poverty line where my "essentials" are now all I can muster and I'm finding ways to cut them down so I can survive in an expensive world. Uncoincidentally, that is around where the average poverty line for the US lies.

Anything that I'm not spending to keep myself alive goes to savings below that point, and I feel the constant burden a low income brings to my life. My risk of losing my home is high, I'm on constant search for jobs, I'm afraid of being sick at all because if I can't find work, and can't pay bills my credit is going in the $%#%. This all puts a drain only a person who's been there could understand. All of my financial defenses will eventually deplete if I can't constantly work minimum wage and stay lucky, and if something goes wrong I'm up the creek without a paddle. Once savings runs low, I'll be selling my unneeded luxuries, downgrading/selling my phone, selling my car, moving to a cheaper neighborhood, then I'll start to do no no's like cutting down on insurance, deferring payments, taking on debt, moving to a bad neighborhood, etc. in which case I'm praying, because I'm running out of options. It just gets worse from there as my safety net is just gone. I desperately need a higher paying job to bring stability to my life.

This is my perception of what it's like to fall into poverty, and its biased from personal experience. It doesn't come from lack of funding. It's usually a combination of low pay, and high cost of living from unplanned events. At the bottom, I've got no car, whatever insurance I can get, just enough food, few possessions, and most likely some debt. Something as small as a stolen bike can set me back immensely. Assuming I'm not tied down to a kid, I don't have much choice but to take whatever loan I can find, and move to a place with better work, where I'm not guaranteed to find an affordable home. To climb back out of poverty, I needed about $10 an hour to keep paying bills, and still be able to contribute meagerly to savings. It can take a while, but it's doable. My health is my main concern as I'm under heavy stress, and I can't climb out if I'm paying medical bills.

Now here's the thing. We live in America. It's guaranteed that I'm going to find a well paying job. I know this because everywhere I go, and I mean everywhere, I have always sniffed out jobs over $10 an hour. It's only a matter of time. We also have safety nets like the food shelf, shelters, Medicaid, unemployment, the affordable health care act. As you sink lower it gets harder, EXCEPT, the fact that there is always just enough money. You won't be refused health care, and you will be able to find food. If you can't pay your bills you can declare bankruptcy. Once you sink below the poverty line, you are no longer considered to owe many of the things that burden a person better off. Our economic system is designed to catch you when you fall because it's your right to survive and try to make a way in this world. America has accounted for how hard it is to scratch your way out of poverty and made appropriate arrangements.

Now what could possibly make Me stay impoverished?
-Single mother/father (Life, won't divorce)
-Chronic health problems (Poverty)
-Severe bodily harm to the point that I can't get to my job (Poverty)
-A criminal record, maybe (Choice, not happening)
-Giving in. Lack of will. Acceptance. (Choice, not happening)

This is based on my observation that if you can find a job, hold it, and work, you will not only climb out of poverty eventually, you will have a good shot at the American Dream as long as you survive to see the day. If poverty doesn't kill you, and life doesn't kill you, then you will almost undoubtedly find success in this country, if you just work and hold the faith.

For there to be a continual cycle of poverty, not only would your system have to fail, but America would also have to fail you, and your children, and those around you, everything and while I accept that is possible and does happen in extremely rare instances, our present rates indicate a much larger contributor to poverty then poverty itself.

What could possibly make someone stay impoverished?
-Single mother/father (Life)
-Chronic health problems (Poverty)
-Severe bodily harm to the point that I can't get to my job (Poverty)
-A criminal record, maybe (Choice)
-Giving in. Lack of will. Acceptance. (Choice)

Since it's my belief that poverty in itself, is not a large contributor to continued poverty in America, and the other factors have to do with choice, then I believe that continued poverty is caused by choices. Now when I say choices, I don't mean the choices that impoverished people don't have day to day in their life. I'm talking about the fundamental ones. The choice to believe in yourself, look to the future, and work towards it no matter what. Once you're in poverty it WILL hold you in, most likely for years to come, but there is almost no chance you won't get out if that's your goal.
Now that's the thing with people who remain in poverty. They don't see a future. I've seen it over and over again. Impoverished and income stressed people want to have money, but they don't have any dreams, which I don't understand since I don't have "give up", and I set goals and reach them. Planned commitment feels hardwired to me. They are either drained completely or just have complete lack of foresight. Often times, criminals have many of the same symptoms of the poor mentality and I was wondering if anyone would care to discuss the relation on which is caused by the other in addition to my other question of what can keep people impoverished.

Criminal like thinking can often result in
-Single mother/father (Life)
-Severe bodily harm to the point that I can't get to my job (Poverty)
-A criminal record, maybe (Choice)
-Giving in. Lack of will.

Cause for Bias
All People (mentally well) unable to climb out of poverty in my life on their own with 1 exception:

-Chronic liars. Often not even able to be honest with themselves.
-Lacked Self Control. Drugs, regretful relationships, crime, pointless risks, unfinished work etc..
-Could not plan long term. Budgeting, no realistic dreams, anything beyond about a month.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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3/18/2016 8:16:19 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
So my theory that I'm bouncing off you guys, is that the cycle of poverty is wrong, and its really a cycle of criminal behavior which has the byproduct of poverty, which triggers criminal like mentalities to make poor decisions based on short term emotions, which has the byproduct of poverty. I'm not saying gangsters, when I say criminal behavior either, not even breaking the law. I'm just referring to things that kind of mindset would lead to.

I'm also hoping to gain greater insight into how the cycle of poverty actually works, since to me, I simply just can't see it. I wish I could, as it would be a nice counter to weigh with my own theory. I've lived in poor areas, but I've never gotten to experience cultural poverty, which I'm deeply interested in since its supposedly a key to the cycle of poverty.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/20/2016 3:32:02 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/18/2016 7:41:42 PM, Quadrunner wrote:

Thank you for responding. I legitimately don't have the energy to offer a substantive response to everything you said, but you expressed interest in learning more about the state of poverty and some of the underlying factors related to this issue. Here are some resources that can get you started:

These kids were geniuses - they were just too poor for anyone to discover them by Guo, 2015
https://www.washingtonpost.com...

Education Gap Between Rich and Poor Is Growing Wider (Porter, 2015)
http://www.nytimes.com...

Low-Income Parents and the Public Schools (Lott, 2001)

Social Class and School Knowledge (Anyon, 1981)

Inequality in the Promised Land: Race, Resources, and Suburban Schooling (Lewis-McCoy)
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Danimal4NU
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3/23/2016 1:45:39 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
It's multifactorial. Both conservatives and liberals make valid points that the other don't want to acknowledge because it doesn't fit their narrative.
Maikuru
Posts: 9,112
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3/23/2016 1:48:55 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 1:45:39 AM, Danimal4NU wrote:
It's multifactorial. Both conservatives and liberals make valid points that the other don't want to acknowledge because it doesn't fit their narrative.

What are the valid points from both sides?
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Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,154
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3/27/2016 2:23:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

If someone pays your rent, pays your utilities, buys you food, pays your medical bills, gives you clothing, pays for your education, and does all of this for your children, and gives you $200 a month, you are living in poverty, with no need to change your circumstances.
YYW
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3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.
YYW
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3/27/2016 10:29:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Really, what's impossible is pulling yourself out of poverty when you're working in the service industry and that is all you can do.
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
YYW
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3/29/2016 10:00:21 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.

You think?

Tell me how.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 10:06:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
20-35 hours of work during school for me.

50-70 hours during the summer.

Lots of favors, to keep the alcohol flowing.

Lots of Ramen.

Something to do it all for.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 10:07:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:06:59 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
20-35 hours of work during school for me.

50-70 hours during the summer.

Lots of favors, to keep the alcohol flowing.

Lots of Ramen.

Something to do it all for.

Midwest.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 10:38:27 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:07:47 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:06:59 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
20-35 hours of work during school for me.

50-70 hours during the summer.

Lots of favors, to keep the alcohol flowing.

Lots of Ramen.

Something to do it all for.

Midwest.

Oh I forgot odd jobs. Might need to raise the average hours just a little more, because I started my own little mowing/shoveling/crappy job businesses wherever I was living, but the cash money was all for my girlfriend so I guess it doesn't matter anyway.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
YYW
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3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/29/2016 11:05:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.
could be - or have no living expenses other than school.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,054
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3/29/2016 11:36:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.

Frankly I think that's a little rude and disrespectful to people who have actually put in the time and work to say that. My girl worked full time through college and double through summer when she had hard times in poor health. I had it easy compared to her, and she stayed debt free as well.

If you've ever been poor, and I mean down low spare change poor, you know how money just gets made and you find a way to pay the bills.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
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3/29/2016 11:38:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:05:18 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.
could be - or have no living expenses other than school.

Rent
Utilities
Health insurance
Tuition
Car insurance
Food

All paid for.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Emmarie
Posts: 1,907
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3/29/2016 11:54:33 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:38:44 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:05:18 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.
could be - or have no living expenses other than school.

Rent
Utilities
Health insurance
Tuition
Car insurance
Food

All paid for.
You ought to be a financial counselor then - I thought I could stretch a dollar - but not that far.
vortex86
Posts: 559
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3/30/2016 3:10:15 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

This is an interesting read that kind of relates to this question.

http://www.nytimes.com...
Welfare-Worker
Posts: 1,154
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3/30/2016 1:25:02 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I had a close family member working in social services in the mid 60's.
I started in the mid 70's, retired fairly recently.
So I have seen strong paternalistic programs, and the liberal reaction to that, stressing independence and assumptions about the inherent goodness of human individuals.
As we should imagine, those programs that were successful at lifting the chronic poor out of poverty were retained, and supplemented. There were none, and that is the problem.

As they say, the proof is in the pudding.
Conservatives and liberals, sometimes actually working together, mostly pulling in different directions, tried their best, and failed, consistently.
Each side has pointed to the short term success of their pet projects, claiming victory, but it was all smoke and mirrors, no actual success. Welfare reform of 1996 is a prime example of smoke and mirrors, bipartisan efforts to snooker the taxpayers.

The poor we will always have with us. That should sound framiliar to some of the lurkers.

Myself and my friends found ways to pay for college, with no help from our parents, and no handouts from Uncle Sugar.
Two went the ROTC route, promised 6 years of their life to the military, got quality educations from big name schools, and served their country as promised, as officers.
Others, like myself, borrowed money, worked various jobs while in college, and spent 8 or 10 years paying the loan off.
I believed some worked full time, lived at home, and didn't have to borrow money.
That is what my son did.

So when someone expects to get a college education, with no servitude obligation, no large debt obligation, and not working full time while in college, I assume the they think I should pay the freight for their education.
I object.

Of course many people have good paying jobs without college, just lots of hard work.

Individuals who live in poverty multigenerationally, in countries like the USA, have yourselves to blame, as much as society. For three generations now social scientists have been trying to find external blame. Certainly there are external contributing factors, but the real blame is in the individuals who fail to take responsibility for their bad choices.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,054
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3/30/2016 5:20:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 11:54:33 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:38:44 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/29/2016 11:05:18 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:51:53 PM, YYW wrote:
At 3/29/2016 10:04:46 PM, Emmarie wrote:
At 3/29/2016 6:16:09 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 3/27/2016 10:29:18 PM, YYW wrote:
@the OP

It's easy for Americans to remain impoverished, especially with the way wage/labor conditions are now in the United States, and, moreover, the systemic ways that people are screwed from the very beginnings of their lives due to the nature of the way credit extension has changed in the United States over the last 20 years or so.

$10 or 12 dollars an hour is enough money to pay your way through school out of pocket, and live.
lol where do you live?

I think he lives in a fantasy world.
could be - or have no living expenses other than school.

Rent
Utilities
Health insurance
Tuition
Car insurance
Food

All paid for.
You ought to be a financial counselor then - I thought I could stretch a dollar - but not that far.

Yeah, I gotta pat myself on the back there. I don't recommend it to anyone at those wages if loans are an option because that part of my life was basically survival. You've gotta make a goal like that with a little meat on your bones haha. I got really lucky with tight trustworthy friends who had connections all through the community, and God blessed me with a bullet proof body that never gets sick. Only happened because my financial aid kicked out and I was too stubborn at the time to let my family know I was up $&*# creek. Her family just couldn't help her. The main thing was that if we weren't spending we were saving, and when one person was going down, the other was ready to help just like any good family would do so I guess we did take on debt unofficially. Group effort, and I turned almost everything I owned into an asset, or liquidated it as well.

It was worth it though, and I actually like being poor except for those acts of God that hit you hard from nowhere. Maybe I just liked the people I was with. I don't know. We had each other's backs, and everything was valuable, so even though we didn't have much it still feels like you are rich when you make something happen.

We lived in a slightly overpopulated apartment.

Food varied a lot because I "volunteered" for the food shelf off and on to justify accepting their help in my head when I was out of money (its embarrassing), got free pizza from campus a couple times a week, joined free clubs with benefits, traded favors etc... It was never more then 100 a month, because I didn't spend more then $50 on groceries and I bought them pretty rarely, which is amazing to me. Food is everywhere in college. I took vitamins too, because I always worried I might be getting malnourished from eating different variations of the same cheap things.

All our books were either borrowed or stolen. That was always a challenge.

I had to trade my truck for an older model to free up some cash at one point, but I was able to maintain my wheels through college. Never paid for gas, because everyone moves in college, and everyone needs a truck. I made a lot of friends helping people move in and the truck would have come darn close to breaking even on its expenses since I took such good care of her. Any spare cash I made generally went towards favors for other people or my girl. It doesn't take much, a thoughtful homestyle meal every once and awhile is amazing to homesick students. I usually made my gifts. I stayed busy.

Community college was 6k a year, and there was good financial aid, a comparative cake walk. The university was 9k a year and it was hell, but the good kind. I always found a way to swing a scholarship my way somehow which brought it down to lower numbers then that. They were small since I'm nothing special, but they still pay a lot better then labor so I put a lot of effort into my applications.

I don't know, It's not rocket science. You just make a goal, you learn, you make a plan, then you make it happen. Since we weren't taking debt, the worst thing that could happen is we drop out, so we just kept pushing, and if it got to be too much, I guess there was always the option of taking a semester or two off to save up again so there isn't really anything to lose but your time. I went full time through college, but not every person is lucky enough to have that option. I had friends who had to drop everything for a little while, but they didn't give up either. Just kept pushing to re-enroll in school, or stayed enrolled part time.

I'm also self sufficient, and have a "can do" mentality handed down. Cooking, sewing, car maintenance/repair, all the things those clueless college kids took for granted until they had a problem, I had in my back pocket, or I took the time to learn, so I never had to hire anyone, and it was not to uncommon for me to be the hired person. You don't need to get paid in cash. Good things come around in their own time.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,054
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3/30/2016 5:43:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/30/2016 3:10:15 AM, vortex86 wrote:
At 3/17/2016 8:39:51 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
The more I research it, the more I feel that its next to impossible for a hard working American to remain impoverished. I have a family that has historically lived near the bottom doing hard labor, and though there may have been times when we had to grow our own food and sew the clothes together, we were never down for the count. All of my family members stretching back over a hundred years to my great great great relatives that lived to have the opportunity literally end up retiring with a dog, a house, and their own yard. We weren't lucky. Deaths, war, crime, health problems, the great depression, hardship, etc....No one got it easy, but regardless of education, every generation always just kept the faith, worked hard, lived conservatively, and stayed true to their family till death aside from a few of the criminals. That's like our family motto on both sides. Work hard and be true to your family. That was literally ALWAYS enough without fail. If our jailbirds could do that and survive even they ended up alright.

So this leads me my questions:

How can you unwillingly remain impoverished in America?
Is crime caused by poverty, or is poverty related to criminals?

I'm not saying that being stuck in poverty is always the fault of the person, but in America we have a higher percentage then I would think the odds should be allowing. You have to be REALLY unlucky not to turn things around at some point in your life according to my family values. There is always hope and opportunity somewhere in this country. If one person has the ultimate series of disaster happen to them that's one thing, but multiple generations? All you have to do is work, and live within your means and you win. Its that simple, so what's impairing that?

This is an interesting read that kind of relates to this question.

http://www.nytimes.com...

That was a good article. Thanks for posting.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.