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Multiculturalism

someloser
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3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
YYW
Posts: 36,287
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3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically, intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.
Tsar of DDO
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/20/2016 8:54:45 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss
intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.
Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically,

Okay, what's the alternative to multi-culturalism? Uni-culturalism? Only one culture/ethnic group's traditions being promoted with a single jurisdiction? (I'm just extrapolating from the definition the OP provided). If this is preferable, then which culture do we choose? "White culture?" "Black culture?"
tajshar2k
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3/20/2016 1:13:52 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

I'm fine with intergrating and welcoming other cultures, since America is a land of immigrants. Learning about Chinese culture or others is something I'm fond of, and we can all socially connect through things like arts and cuisine. But some core parts of American culture like private property, free speech, democracy should be something every immigrant should generally accept. I have problems with people who want religious laws and a bunch of other stuff.
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,268
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3/20/2016 4:05:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 1:13:52 PM, tajshar2k wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

I'm fine with intergrating and welcoming other cultures, since America is a land of immigrants. Learning about Chinese culture or others is something I'm fond of, and we can all socially connect through things like arts and cuisine. But some core parts of American culture like private property, free speech, democracy should be something every immigrant should generally accept. I have problems with people who want religious laws and a bunch of other stuff.

Diversity of behavior especially when that diverse behavior violates laws or the US constitution, is an absolutely undebateable BAD thing.

If we are not considered Americans by our mutual respect for the laws, than anyone in the world can call themselves an American citizen. The 14th amendment ensures equality under the law, that's not an invitation to diversely disregard the law; quite the opposite.
YYW
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3/20/2016 4:18:31 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 8:54:45 AM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss
intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.
Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically,

Okay, what's the alternative to multi-culturalism? Uni-culturalism? Only one culture/ethnic group's traditions being promoted with a single jurisdiction? (I'm just extrapolating from the definition the OP provided). If this is preferable, then which culture do we choose? "White culture?" "Black culture?"

The alternative is requiring immigrants to assimilate into the culture they move into. What's funny is that most already do this.

Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. all assimilate voluntarily; only muslims insist in maintaining their own cultural norms. First generation Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. often even give their kids anglo-saxon names.... (what more pronounced act of assimilation could there be?)

There's something to be said for keeping some aspects of a person's culture from their home country (language, food, belief in their particular god, etc.) which is fine; but the material aspects of a culture (i.e. not making women wear burkas, allowing wives/teenage daughters to learn to drive, not doing arranged marriages, not engaging in honor killings, not trying to murder gay people, etc.) have to change.
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F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/20/2016 6:11:40 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 4:18:31 PM, YYW wrote:
The alternative is requiring immigrants to assimilate into the culture they move into. What's funny is that most already do this.

Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. all assimilate voluntarily; only muslims insist in maintaining their own cultural norms. First generation Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. often even give their kids anglo-saxon names.... (what more pronounced act of assimilation could there be?)

There's something to be said for keeping some aspects of a person's culture from their home country (language, food, belief in their particular god, etc.) which is fine; but the material aspects of a culture (i.e. not making women wear burkas, allowing wives/teenage daughters to learn to drive, not doing arranged marriages, not engaging in honor killings, not trying to murder gay people, etc.) have to change.

I don't really agree with your definition of assimilation and I think people can assimilate and the country can remain multicultural at the same time. I think language and cuisine are just as important parts of culture as anything else.

Most of the things you described are illegal in the United States and I'm fully against them. I disagree that that is how multiculturalism is defined. It seems we disagree more on semantics than substance but breaking the law is not what most people consider multiculturalism. Rather differences in cuisine, language, holidays, family values like whether adults support their parents financially, are what makes the United States a multicultural, inclusive country.
YYW
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3/20/2016 7:04:00 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 6:11:40 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/20/2016 4:18:31 PM, YYW wrote:
The alternative is requiring immigrants to assimilate into the culture they move into. What's funny is that most already do this.

Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. all assimilate voluntarily; only muslims insist in maintaining their own cultural norms. First generation Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. often even give their kids anglo-saxon names.... (what more pronounced act of assimilation could there be?)

There's something to be said for keeping some aspects of a person's culture from their home country (language, food, belief in their particular god, etc.) which is fine; but the material aspects of a culture (i.e. not making women wear burkas, allowing wives/teenage daughters to learn to drive, not doing arranged marriages, not engaging in honor killings, not trying to murder gay people, etc.) have to change.

I don't really agree with your definition of assimilation and I think people can assimilate and the country can remain multicultural at the same time. I think language and cuisine are just as important parts of culture as anything else.

Most of the things you described are illegal in the United States and I'm fully against them. I disagree that that is how multiculturalism is defined.

I wasn't defining multiculturalism. I was giving examples of how it takes effect.

It seems we disagree more on semantics than substance but breaking the law is not what most people consider multiculturalism.

So you don't think people should be given religious exceptions to a country's laws?

Rather differences in cuisine, language, holidays, family values like whether adults support their parents financially, are what makes the United States a multicultural, inclusive country.
Tsar of DDO
F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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3/20/2016 7:25:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 7:04:00 PM, YYW wrote:

So you don't think people should be given religious exceptions to a country's laws?

Depends. It's complicated and I'm very conflicted on it.
YYW
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3/20/2016 7:56:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 7:25:06 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
At 3/20/2016 7:04:00 PM, YYW wrote:

So you don't think people should be given religious exceptions to a country's laws?

Depends. It's complicated and I'm very conflicted on it.

Well let's try to think of some examples then... Maybe if we do that we'll be able to tease out a more general rule or principal.
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Vox_Veritas
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3/21/2016 1:43:22 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Multiculturalism should not be a universal trait. Most countries should be no less than 85% native majority group and no more than 15% all other groups combined. In the continents of North and South America, the indigenous peoples comprise of one out of every 16 people so an "America for the Native Americans" is completely unfeasible. Given this fact, North and South America should be set aside as the world's bulwark of multiculturalism, where (almost) anybody can just come and not have to worry about demographic percentages and quotas.
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inferno
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3/21/2016 3:02:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically, intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.

Anyone who opposes the unification of humanity is a social infidel being who has a superiority complex about themselves. Its not a Left or Right agenda as this concept is part of the capitalistic society we live.
lannan13
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3/21/2016 3:34:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I think that generally it's a good thing, but it is impossible to fully achieve without violence.
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inferno
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3/21/2016 4:12:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 3:34:03 PM, lannan13 wrote:
I think that generally it's a good thing, but it is impossible to fully achieve without violence.

Violence is human nature. It is going to happen regardless of ones social setting.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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3/22/2016 1:37:05 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Well, multiculturalism is inevitable, so it's always a matter of degree. And the amount of multiculturalism which can be accepted depends on the legal framework which exists, the dominant culture, and the tolerated cultures. So it's entirely circumstantial.

Anyone who thinks that multiculturalism has no limit is historically illiterate and shockingly unfamiliar with basic human nature. The same goes for people who think that it shouldn't be tolerated at all.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
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someloser
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3/22/2016 1:42:53 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/21/2016 4:12:37 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/21/2016 3:34:03 PM, lannan13 wrote:
I think that generally it's a good thing, but it is impossible to fully achieve without violence.

Violence is human nature. It is going to happen regardless of ones social setting.

One can avoid needlessly adding onto it.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
tvellalott
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3/22/2016 10:22:27 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically, intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.

Not by that definition. By that definition, I live in a successful multicultural society.
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inferno
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3/22/2016 1:58:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/22/2016 1:42:53 AM, someloser wrote:
At 3/21/2016 4:12:37 PM, inferno wrote:
At 3/21/2016 3:34:03 PM, lannan13 wrote:
I think that generally it's a good thing, but it is impossible to fully achieve without violence.

Violence is human nature. It is going to happen regardless of ones social setting.

One can avoid needlessly adding onto it.

Can is irrelevant. The reality is that that's now how it is in the real world.
We are in a culture of violence. Take note to the recent terrorist attack they just had in Brussels for example. Do you get it now.
Maikuru
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3/23/2016 5:38:12 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Sounds good.
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triangle.128k
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3/23/2016 8:24:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

As long as immigrants assimilate to some extent and value some ideals such as free speech and secularism, I don't see much of an issue to this in the US or Canada.

Europe on the other hand has been failing with multiculturalism. In Europe, it is best for immigrants to assimilate to the culture surrounding them, as multiculturalism has been failing drastically. Because of the EU's overly gentle immigration policies, immigration rates in Europe have became far too much. If you promote multiculturalism alongside this, you're cooking a recipe for disaster. Not only this, but Europe generally doesn't quite have the same history as the US, and they should preserve their own culture.
lamerde
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3/23/2016 8:44:44 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 8:24:49 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

As long as immigrants assimilate to some extent and value some ideals such as free speech and secularism, I don't see much of an issue to this in the US or Canada.

Europe on the other hand has been failing with multiculturalism. In Europe, it is best for immigrants to assimilate to the culture surrounding them, as multiculturalism has been failing drastically. Because of the EU's overly gentle immigration policies, immigration rates in Europe have became far too much. If you promote multiculturalism alongside this, you're cooking a recipe for disaster. Not only this, but Europe generally doesn't quite have the same history as the US, and they should preserve their own culture.

Which EU countries do you mean?
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triangle.128k
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3/23/2016 8:49:55 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 8:44:44 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 3/23/2016 8:24:49 PM, triangle.128k wrote:

As long as immigrants assimilate to some extent and value some ideals such as free speech and secularism, I don't see much of an issue to this in the US or Canada.

Europe on the other hand has been failing with multiculturalism. In Europe, it is best for immigrants to assimilate to the culture surrounding them, as multiculturalism has been failing drastically. Because of the EU's overly gentle immigration policies, immigration rates in Europe have became far too much. If you promote multiculturalism alongside this, you're cooking a recipe for disaster. Not only this, but Europe generally doesn't quite have the same history as the US, and they should preserve their own culture.

Which EU countries do you mean?

I was talking about the EU's general policy on immigration. If a country is in the EU, they aren't 100% self governing.
lamerde
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3/23/2016 8:54:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
"However, in some societies there is a common misconception that multiculturalism means only the presence of many independent cultural communities in a society (i.e., only cultural diversity), without the presence of intercultural interaction and equitable participation in the larger society. This view seems to have been the basis of recent assertions in some European societies (e.g., in Germany, The Netherlands, and the UK) that "multiculturalism has failed." The British Prime Minister David Cameron, for example, argued that state multiculturalism in "Britain had encouraged different cultures to live separate lives" and that "the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism" (Cameron, 2011). From the perspective outlined here, particularly with reference to multiculturalism as policy, we argue that multiculturalism has not failed because it was not really attempted in these societies, that is, taking into consideration both of the components mentioned. If multiculturalism is viewed and accepted only as the tolerated presence of different cultures in a society, without the simultaneous promotion of inclusion through programs to reduce barriers to equitable participation, then a form of segregation is the correct name for such policies and practices."

"One difficulty in discussions of the meaning of multiculturalism has been the simple equating of multiculturalism with cultural diversity."

http://econtent.hogrefe.com...
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Skepsikyma
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3/23/2016 10:55:47 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/23/2016 8:54:18 PM, lamerde wrote:
"However, in some societies there is a common misconception that multiculturalism means only the presence of many independent cultural communities in a society (i.e., only cultural diversity), without the presence of intercultural interaction and equitable participation in the larger society. This view seems to have been the basis of recent assertions in some European societies (e.g., in Germany, The Netherlands, and the UK) that "multiculturalism has failed." The British Prime Minister David Cameron, for example, argued that state multiculturalism in "Britain had encouraged different cultures to live separate lives" and that "the UK needed a stronger national identity to prevent people turning to all kinds of extremism" (Cameron, 2011). From the perspective outlined here, particularly with reference to multiculturalism as policy, we argue that multiculturalism has not failed because it was not really attempted in these societies, that is, taking into consideration both of the components mentioned. If multiculturalism is viewed and accepted only as the tolerated presence of different cultures in a society, without the simultaneous promotion of inclusion through programs to reduce barriers to equitable participation, then a form of segregation is the correct name for such policies and practices."

"One difficulty in discussions of the meaning of multiculturalism has been the simple equating of multiculturalism with cultural diversity."

http://econtent.hogrefe.com...

That's an incredibly narrow, modern and Euro-centric take on multiculturalism, when other civilizations have been much more successful at in than Europeans have following completely different models. It also pretty much erases human nature from the equation.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
tejretics
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3/29/2016 4:17:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:53:46 AM, YYW wrote:
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Multiculturalism is one of the many naive, delusions that ensnares the progressive left with sickening hypocrisy. Tolerance for fundamentalist Islam (and, ironically, intolerance for fundamentalist Christianity) is one of the many fault lines on which that experiment falls apart.

What are you suggesting as an alternative?

First, multiculturalism does not entail tolerance to "fundamentalist" views. It implies tolerance to different -- not necessarily all -- cultures. Under multiculturalism, all *non-fundamentalist* views (e.g. religious terrorism, fascism) can be rejected and it can still flourish.

Second, the alternatives are often worse. Are you suggesting we remove all integration and start respecting an individual culture? Such a view *is* the same "fundamentalism" and fascism you're trying to avoid.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
tejretics
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3/29/2016 4:22:05 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
@YYW

Having read the discussion between you and F-16, it seems my position is basically the same as F-16's. Our disagreement lies in what we call "multiculturalism" and "assimilation."
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
YYW
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3/29/2016 10:53:01 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/29/2016 4:22:05 PM, tejretics wrote:
@YYW

Having read the discussion between you and F-16, it seems my position is basically the same as F-16's. Our disagreement lies in what we call "multiculturalism" and "assimilation."

Multiculturalism doesn't require assimilation. That's the issue.
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someloser
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3/29/2016 11:07:49 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 4:18:31 PM, YYW wrote:
The alternative is requiring immigrants to assimilate into the culture they move into. What's funny is that most already do this.

Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. all assimilate voluntarily; only muslims insist in maintaining their own cultural norms. First generation Asians, Indians, latinos, etc. often even give their kids anglo-saxon names.... (what more pronounced act of assimilation could there be?)

Have to disagree here. Not even the old immigrant waves of the Irish and Germans assimilated into culture of the original Anglo-Dutch settlers.

Aside from the name thing (which I'll have to look into), I see no reason to believe much assimilation has taken place. And given the historical precedent (and given the fact that I live in a very multi-ethnic/cultural area), I'm inclined to be extremely skeptical of such claims.

There's something to be said for keeping some aspects of a person's culture from their home country (language, food, belief in their particular god, etc.) which is fine; but the material aspects of a culture (i.e. not making women wear burkas, allowing wives/teenage daughters to learn to drive, not doing arranged marriages, not engaging in honor killings, not trying to murder gay people, etc.) have to change.

Agree, though they're largely intertwined and difficult to change over time. Even if you isolate and remove the totally dyscivic factors of cultures, you'll still get enclaves and divisions (look at the Tatars in Poland).

Second, the alternatives are often worse. Are you suggesting we remove all integration and start respecting an individual culture? Such a view *is* the same "fundamentalism" and fascism you're trying to avoid.

Sorry, mind elaborating on this?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
lotsoffun
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3/30/2016 9:22:23 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 3/20/2016 5:46:59 AM, someloser wrote:
Going by Wikipedia's definition:

"the existence, acceptance, or promotion of multiple cultural traditions within a single jurisdiction, usually considered in terms of the culture associated with an ethnic group."

Discuss

Proven in Europe to be a very bad idea and not so terrible in the Americas. This shows that an indigenous people such as Europeans should not be displaced by other cultures.
xxxcitizen
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4/5/2016 6:56:39 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I do not think multiculturalism is really happening.Its capitalism,cheap labour,divide and rule and exploitation.