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Shame

innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/18/2010 12:56:37 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I had a poli sci prof back in the 80's who was pretty controversial in his lectures. In one of his lectures he claimed that shame provided a very valuable function in society.

I won't give the specific example that he used, because it will completely derail the thread, but essentially shame in society was an important component in a more libertarian society (not speaking of the hard core libertarians that dwell here).

I'm also thinking if there is a certain amount of (soft) shame factor that happens here.
belle
Posts: 4,113
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11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.
evidently i only come to ddo to avoid doing homework...
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/18/2010 6:47:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Unless you are talking about "primordial Shame" that Sartre claimed everyone experiences when looked at by another (the Gaze). That doesn't require you to actually "know" them but instead, it's probably more potent if you DON'T know them. ^_^
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Ragnar_Rahl
Posts: 19,297
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11/18/2010 8:04:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Person A: Shame on you!
Person B: *flips person A off and proceeds to ignore.
Person A: ....
Person B: That was easy.
It came to be at its height. It was commanded to command. It was a capital before its first stone was laid. It was a monument to the spirit of man.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/19/2010 12:04:15 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/18/2010 12:56:37 AM, innomen wrote:
I had a poli sci prof back in the 80's who was pretty controversial in his lectures. In one of his lectures he claimed that shame provided a very valuable function in society.


I am confused isn't that utterly self-evident to everyone?
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/19/2010 12:05:45 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Tell that to the Lets-dump-a-cat-in-a-bin lady... or to the average Japanese person.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/19/2010 12:12:59 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 12:05:45 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Tell that to the Lets-dump-a-cat-in-a-bin lady... or to the average Japanese person.

Or anyone in highschool.
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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11/19/2010 1:40:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 12:05:45 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Tell that to the Lets-dump-a-cat-in-a-bin lady... or to the average Japanese person.

Well, I'll be damned.

Anyway, *this.*
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/19/2010 1:52:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 1:40:16 AM, Ren wrote:
At 11/19/2010 12:05:45 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Tell that to the Lets-dump-a-cat-in-a-bin lady... or to the average Japanese person.

Well, I'll be damned.

Anyway, *this.*

Or even just the guy who throws a piece of paper on the ground in a park. Isn't the entire pc movement based on shame and conformity to avoid it? I think it's a much larger component of how society works than we might think. Shame is about pressure to conform, and certain levels of conformity is necessary in society.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/19/2010 8:34:47 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 8:30:43 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2010 8:22:04 AM, badger wrote:
shame can spawn bad things too.

Believe me i understand that too.

probably more bad than good though what with peer pressure and that sorta thing. the only good i can think of it doing fairly consistently would be preventing littering.
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Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/19/2010 8:44:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)
Without those you will feel worse.

Time will show.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/19/2010 11:43:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 1:52:05 AM, innomen wrote:
At 11/19/2010 1:40:16 AM, Ren wrote:
At 11/19/2010 12:05:45 AM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/18/2010 1:41:28 AM, belle wrote:
this only really works in small communities where everyone knows everyone else and shame has real consequences. "shaming" someone in modern society is practically useless just because the majority of the time people are anonymous to one another... and its relatively easy to disappear.

Tell that to the Lets-dump-a-cat-in-a-bin lady... or to the average Japanese person.

Well, I'll be damned.

Anyway, *this.*

Or even just the guy who throws a piece of paper on the ground in a park. Isn't the entire pc movement based on shame and conformity to avoid it?

PC or the parody it has become, is motivated by the fear or rather the shame that one might be seen to be racist, sexist etc. The person may or may not still be a racist or whatever, underlying issues of understanding are not addressed... but they are kept in check by the power of shame!

I think it's a much larger component of how society works than we might think. Shame is about pressure to conform, and certain levels of conformity is necessary in society.

Shame and guilt are essentially the source of our morality, to a very large extent.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/19/2010 11:45:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)

You are not a robot because though you are programmed with these things (or should be) you can and do test and even violate your programming.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
badger
Posts: 11,793
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11/20/2010 12:28:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 11:45:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)

You are not a robot because though you are programmed with these things (or should be) you can and do test and even violate your programming.

so you're saying that you're the robot?
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innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/20/2010 1:13:47 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/20/2010 12:28:19 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/19/2010 11:45:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)

You are not a robot because though you are programmed with these things (or should be) you can and do test and even violate your programming.

so you're saying that you're the robot?

His programming is to question everyone else's programming.
gavin.ogden
Posts: 1,729
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11/20/2010 3:15:59 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/19/2010 8:44:16 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)
Without those you will feel worse.

Time will show.

Agreed...
lovelife
Posts: 14,629
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11/20/2010 3:17:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/20/2010 1:13:47 PM, innomen wrote:
At 11/20/2010 12:28:19 PM, badger wrote:
At 11/19/2010 11:45:14 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
At 11/19/2010 8:37:38 AM, badger wrote:
shame, guilt and sympathy... you lot are making me feel like a robot :)

You are not a robot because though you are programmed with these things (or should be) you can and do test and even violate your programming.

so you're saying that you're the robot?

His programming is to question everyone else's programming.

Isn't everyone's?
Without Royal there is a hole inside of me, I have no choice but to leave
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/21/2010 12:21:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/18/2010 8:04:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Person A: Shame on you!
Person B: *flips person A off and proceeds to ignore.
Person A: ....
Person B: That was easy.

Even if shame could be avoided in the way you describe, it's not. Shame is something people do live their lives trying to avoid. I had one (terrible 101) psych professor basically spend the entire semester talking about shame and love in particular; shame insofar as the emotion that affects (troubles) people the most. You might want to convince yourself it's as easy to avoid as you describe here, but that's probably because you don't interact enough with people in the real world enough to feel the negative impact from it :p For most people it doesn't work that way even if in your idealistic robot world it did...
President of DDO
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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11/21/2010 12:40:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/21/2010 12:21:17 PM, theLwerd wrote:
At 11/18/2010 8:04:14 PM, Ragnar_Rahl wrote:
Person A: Shame on you!
Person B: *flips person A off and proceeds to ignore.
Person A: ....
Person B: That was easy.

Even if shame could be avoided in the way you describe, it's not. Shame is something people do live their lives trying to avoid. I had one (terrible 101) psych professor basically spend the entire semester talking about shame and love in particular; shame insofar as the emotion that affects (troubles) people the most. You might want to convince yourself it's as easy to avoid as you describe here, but that's probably because you don't interact enough with people in the real world enough to feel the negative impact from it :p For most people it doesn't work that way even if in your idealistic robot world it did...

Lulz. I like how you insulted a couple people in there and still gave a coherent argument ;)
clucas
Posts: 49
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11/21/2010 7:16:48 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Shame is a completely normal feeling, that everyone has or will experience in their lifetime. Nobody is perfect, and shame is simply a way of the mind notifying you that the action you did was most likely wrong otherwise you would have no issue with commiting the act that contributed to the shame you are experiencing.