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Gamergate

someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/4/2016 5:18:59 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
A year and some months, more like it.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
MattTheDreamer
Posts: 1,404
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4/4/2016 8:51:12 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
Technically, Gamergate as a movement is still around, although they've lost a lot of the power they once had. I wouldn't be surprised if they fizzled out for good this year, if they haven't already. But i'm not sure what Gamergate has to do with DDO. Could you explain further?
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,154
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4/4/2016 2:08:35 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 12:44:37 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
What is gamergate?

No!
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Vaarka
Posts: 7,637
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4/4/2016 2:23:41 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 12:44:37 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
What is gamergate?

https://en.wikipedia.org...
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Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/4/2016 4:18:59 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
The sentiment may be similar, but the anti-SJW stuff here doesn't seem to be related to Gamergate at all. At least people here have managed to keep the threats of violence to themselves, for the most part.
autocorrect
Posts: 432
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4/4/2016 5:18:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Weirdly, I was just reading about this a few days ago - and wondered how I could have missed it happening, and now there's a thread about it. It's about sex in games, right? I think there's not enough sex in games, and when there is - it's juvenile and lurid. One notable exception is the Witcher series - that did some truly beautiful cut scenes that were sexual in nature. It's this loving, ennobling, aesthetically pleasing depiction of sex that's missing - going forward.

Why? Perhaps it's because the people making video games are 'computer nerds' for want of a better term; young - mainly men, who haven't yet experienced the qualitative difference between sex in the context of a loving relationship and pornographic depitctions of sex. If they haven't experienced the former, they should play Witcher - for that scene in the elven baths with Triss Merigold is illustrative of sex in love.

As for the SJW's behaviours - they border on the criminal and can only be condemned. This undemocratic, government through criminal harassment on social media maligns the future of technology - in contradiction of the progressive argument.
Burzmali
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4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 5:18:50 PM, autocorrect wrote:
Weirdly, I was just reading about this a few days ago - and wondered how I could have missed it happening, and now there's a thread about it. It's about sex in games, right? I think there's not enough sex in games, and when there is - it's juvenile and lurid. One notable exception is the Witcher series - that did some truly beautiful cut scenes that were sexual in nature. It's this loving, ennobling, aesthetically pleasing depiction of sex that's missing - going forward.

Gamergate is a response to some perceived threat to games from critics like Anita Sarkeesian. It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

Why? Perhaps it's because the people making video games are 'computer nerds' for want of a better term; young - mainly men, who haven't yet experienced the qualitative difference between sex in the context of a loving relationship and pornographic depitctions of sex. If they haven't experienced the former, they should play Witcher - for that scene in the elven baths with Triss Merigold is illustrative of sex in love.

"Young - mainly men" might describe the 50+ grunt team that does the boring, day-to-day development on a blockbuster game. But the people who make design decisions tend to be older (30+), in relationships, and is comprised of a larger percentage of women than at the grunt level (though still not representative). For instance, David Jaffe was in his thirties and married when God of War was developed. Yet that had some of the most overtly sexual imagery that existed in mainstream games when it was released. The sad fact is that the audience for blockbuster games is like what you ascribe to the dev team, and the publishers know that mentality well.

As for the SJW's behaviours - they border on the criminal and can only be condemned. This undemocratic, government through criminal harassment on social media maligns the future of technology - in contradiction of the progressive argument.

There's nothing like that going on with the criticism that Gamergate is responding to. They're complaining about YouTube videos and responding with threats of sexual violence. People like Sarkeesian may offer an intellectual argument for changing the common sexist tropes in games, but Gamergate is a concrete reason.
someloser
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4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 8:51:12 AM, MattTheDreamer wrote:
Could you explain further?
Farlefties invading or whatever. Haven't seen too many of them here though, so I'll have to disagree with OP.

At 4/4/2016 2:23:41 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 4/4/2016 12:44:37 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
What is gamergate?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Wikipedia is probably one of the worst sources to use here.

At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]

How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation? I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.
someloser
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4/4/2016 7:16:28 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation?
How many would be appropriate to describe what the movement is "about"?

I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.
Not really. "Non-zero" could be anything from 1 to 3 billion - and the former definitely won't tell us anything about GamerGate in general.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/4/2016 9:12:10 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]

How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation? I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.

That's really bad reasoning. Movements aren't defined by any one member's (or group of members') actions. You can say that such actions are counterproductive and bad, but you can't indict a whole movement. For example, I think that BLM does a lot of things that are counterproductive and bad, but that doesn't detract from their central mission to address corruption within the justice system, which is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/4/2016 9:12:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 7:16:28 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation?
How many would be appropriate to describe what the movement is "about"?

I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.
Not really. "Non-zero" could be anything from 1 to 3 billion - and the former definitely won't tell us anything about GamerGate in general.

I'm not able to meet a criteria that isn't defined. Personally, what I saw from the "movement" was a rabid response to female critics of games, and of Gamergate, that included threats of sexual violence. Those threats were accompanied by tactics like doxing and SWATting. The response from some alleged founders of the movement was so anemic that I didn't find a compelling reason to think they represented that majority opinion of the group.

So while they may have started with some goal of defending gaming from a feminist assault, the movement appears to have shifted to little more than a particularly disgusting MRA subculture.
Burzmali
Posts: 1,310
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4/4/2016 9:16:20 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 9:12:10 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]

How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation? I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.

That's really bad reasoning. Movements aren't defined by any one member's (or group of members') actions. You can say that such actions are counterproductive and bad, but you can't indict a whole movement. For example, I think that BLM does a lot of things that are counterproductive and bad, but that doesn't detract from their central mission to address corruption within the justice system, which is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.

When the problem is so pervasive, as it is with Gamergate, I don't know how identify one over the other as the true mission. The KKK may have started as a baking circle for all I know, but at some point they moved the wood-burning stove to a black person's lawn and now I'm hesitant to believe any white-hooded folks who tell me they really just joined to swap recipes.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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4/4/2016 9:22:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 9:16:20 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/4/2016 9:12:10 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:57:11 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]

How many instances of rape threats, in response to criticism akin to "why is the damsel in distress trope so common," from people claiming to represent Gamergate (and confirmed as members) do you need as citation? I would think the fact that the number of instances is non-zero would be common knowledge and evidence enough.

That's really bad reasoning. Movements aren't defined by any one member's (or group of members') actions. You can say that such actions are counterproductive and bad, but you can't indict a whole movement. For example, I think that BLM does a lot of things that are counterproductive and bad, but that doesn't detract from their central mission to address corruption within the justice system, which is a huge problem that needs to be addressed.

When the problem is so pervasive, as it is with Gamergate, I don't know how identify one over the other as the true mission. The KKK may have started as a baking circle for all I know, but at some point they moved the wood-burning stove to a black person's lawn and now I'm hesitant to believe any white-hooded folks who tell me they really just joined to swap recipes.

Covered in the media =/= prevalent. If you know the KKK, you know that the fact that they drummed up the threat of white women being raped by black man was not indicative of any real threat towards white women, but rather of a pervasive violent, dangerous stereotype held by society regarding black men. Gamergate is similar; there is a societal stereotype of gamers as violent and reclusive, which has been tapped into by the media since the 90s. So you need to pay a bit more attention to actual evidence and possible media manipulation when you have that sort of preexisting narrative and bias, where it's easy to get headlines that draw eyes by falling back on misconceptions. If you want your claims of harassment to be taken seriously, you need to produce a good evidence trail.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
autocorrect
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4/5/2016 12:11:03 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
At 4/4/2016 5:18:50 PM, autocorrect wrote:
Weirdly, I was just reading about this a few days ago - and wondered how I could have missed it happening, and now there's a thread about it. It's about sex in games, right? I think there's not enough sex in games, and when there is - it's juvenile and lurid. One notable exception is the Witcher series - that did some truly beautiful cut scenes that were sexual in nature. It's this loving, ennobling, aesthetically pleasing depiction of sex that's missing - going forward.

Gamergate is a response to some perceived threat to games from critics like Anita Sarkeesian. It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

So this isn't, as I thought - about SJW's taking to Twitter etc to make personalised attacks against specific people in games development who are thought to be responsible for sexist depictions of women in games?

Why? Perhaps it's because the people making video games are 'computer nerds' for want of a better term; young - mainly men, who haven't yet experienced the qualitative difference between sex in the context of a loving relationship and pornographic depitctions of sex. If they haven't experienced the former, they should play Witcher - for that scene in the elven baths with Triss Merigold is illustrative of sex in love.

"Young - mainly men" might describe the 50+ grunt team that does the boring, day-to-day development on a blockbuster game. But the people who make design decisions tend to be older (30+), in relationships, and is comprised of a larger percentage of women than at the grunt level (though still not representative). For instance, David Jaffe was in his thirties and married when God of War was developed. Yet that had some of the most overtly sexual imagery that existed in mainstream games when it was released. The sad fact is that the audience for blockbuster games is like what you ascribe to the dev team, and the publishers know that mentality well.

Allow me to assure you that in men, age is no measure of maturity - particularly in sexual matters. However, point taken. On the whole, I agree that there's something wrong with the depiction of sex in games - but where to place that responsibility is a tough question.

As for the SJW's behaviours - they border on the criminal and can only be condemned. This undemocratic, government through criminal harassment on social media maligns the future of technology - in contradiction of the progressive argument.

There's nothing like that going on with the criticism that Gamergate is responding to. They're complaining about YouTube videos and responding with threats of sexual violence. People like Sarkeesian may offer an intellectual argument for changing the common sexist tropes in games, but Gamergate is a concrete reason.

I may have misunderstood the nature of this controversy overall - but someone crossed the line from fair comment into harassment, of that I'm sure. To be clear, are you saying it was this feminist blogger - Anita Sarkeesian who was on the receiving end of this behavior? I don't condone that either - but I thought it was that games developers were getting threats, from a cadre of SJW's. Probably should have refreshed my understanding before commenting!
autocorrect
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4/5/2016 12:16:11 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/4/2016 6:52:06 PM, someloser wrote:
At 4/4/2016 8:51:12 AM, MattTheDreamer wrote:
Could you explain further?
Farlefties invading or whatever. Haven't seen too many of them here though, so I'll have to disagree with OP.

At 4/4/2016 2:23:41 PM, Vaarka wrote:
At 4/4/2016 12:44:37 PM, The-Holy-Macrel wrote:
What is gamergate?

https://en.wikipedia.org...

Wikipedia is probably one of the worst sources to use here.

At 4/4/2016 6:36:13 PM, Burzmali wrote:
It's not about sex, specifically, but about defending sexism.

[citation needed]

Thanks for the link - all caught up now. It's about telling women to shut up for complaining about how their gender is portrayed in games. Gotcha!
autocorrect
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4/5/2016 7:47:52 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
One thing Sarkeesain overlooks is that in a lot of games you can choose between a male and female avatars from the outset, and achieve all the same goals. I more often play female characters - because they're nicer to look at, but just as tough! Games don't do sex very well, but gender? I disagree. I can think of many games where there's effective parity between male and female avatars, and I can think of several games where the avatar is exclusively female. NPC's (background characters) of both genders are in various ways, subject to the players avatar by virtue of the nature of video games. Only rarely are male NPC's depicted as strippers or prostitutes, but I've seen that too: Fallout: New Vegas, for example. But on the whole, I think the idea that the video games industry has a problem with gender stereotypes is false. Sex, they could do better. But gender, they're on point.