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How to WRECK an anti-abortionist

smelisox
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4/5/2016 4:50:46 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:49:24 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

This is why Trump backpedaled.

Or he saw his grotesque face in a mirror and recoiled.
PeacefulChaos
Posts: 2,610
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4/5/2016 5:54:20 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

I believe abortion is an immoral act, and this question has not changed my stance on this matter. It merely makes me wonder about the legal aspect (as opposed to moral) of abortion.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/5/2016 8:28:43 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
But they can"t accept this conclusion. They know it"s absurd and unfair " which means they know abortion is not really murder.

Hahahahahahaha
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

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PetersSmith
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4/5/2016 9:32:14 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:49:24 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

This is why Trump backpedaled.

I think Trump has always been pro-choice, but he just said he was "pro-life with exceptions" and other pro-life statements to try to get more conservatives to vote for him.
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Greyparrot
Posts: 14,249
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4/5/2016 9:45:36 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 9:32:14 PM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:49:24 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

This is why Trump backpedaled.

I think Trump has always been pro-choice, but he just said he was "pro-life with exceptions" and other pro-life statements to try to get more conservatives to vote for him.

Of course, it really makes him uncomfortable to take hard core religious stances. He believes in the rule of law, but he has a heart too.
Vox_Veritas
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4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

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Rigoletto
Posts: 62
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4/5/2016 11:53:58 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

The issue is most adamant pro-life advocates don't believe killing is permissible in general. Their response would be that there should be severe punishment doled out, but not the death penalty.
smelisox
Posts: 849
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4/6/2016 12:10:42 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

You're a sick human being if you honestly think that.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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4/6/2016 7:39:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

It doesn't have all of the same rights as an adult; neither does a child. But one right that it should share in common with an adult is the right to life, because it is a human being.

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

I'm not saying that it doesn't suck for the mother, but the implications of an abortion for the unborn child are far, far, higher than the implications that carrying the child to term and then putting him or her up for adoption would have on the woman in question.

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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4/6/2016 7:43:53 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 12:10:42 PM, smelisox wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

You're a sick human being if you honestly think that.

What's sick about imprisoning a murderer?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/6/2016 9:57:08 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 7:39:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

It doesn't have all of the same rights as an adult; neither does a child. But one right that it should share in common with an adult is the right to life, because it is a human being.

I don't see how something not intelligent enough to know it exists deserves the right to life. I don't place a particular importance on the fact the foetus is a human. It is less intelligent then a cow or a horse.

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

I'm not saying that it doesn't suck for the mother, but the implications of an abortion for the unborn child are far, far, higher than the implications that carrying the child to term and then putting him or her up for adoption would have on the woman in question.

But the foetus does not know it exists? It's brain is in a very low state of development. This forced pregnancy could ruin a woman's hopes and dreams. It also creates an unwanted child. I seriously don't see the benefit. Care homes are horrible places and children receive a poor upbringing. It is also extremely expensive to look after a child in care.

Read this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Quadrunner
Posts: 1,076
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4/6/2016 11:17:03 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

If I physically assault you and break your leg and it takes 9 months for basic recovery + some additional time to condition to where you were previously, are you being punished?

No, its just the nature of the injury I illegally inflicted on you. If you could help it would you avoid it? Of course, but realize that if you are talking to a pro-lifer they might not think killing the child is a possible option, just like your leg healing in a day from a special medical procedure is not a possible option.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/6/2016 11:46:37 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 11:17:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

If I physically assault you and break your leg and it takes 9 months for basic recovery + some additional time to condition to where you were previously, are you being punished?

You don't understand. A forced pregnancy caused by a rapist is MUCH worse than a broken leg. It's not a fair comparison. It's the psychological trauma caused by knowing the child you are carrying was caused by a man raping you. One day your going to give birth to this baby forced upon you against your will containing 50% DNA of what you regard as the most evil prick ever to walk the earth. Every day the pregnancy reminds you of the attack. Denying a woman the right to an abortion following a rape is about as severe as sexism gets.

No, its just the nature of the injury I illegally inflicted on you. If you could help it would you avoid it? Of course, but realize that if you are talking to a pro-lifer they might not think killing the child is a possible option, just like your leg healing in a day from a special medical procedure is not a possible option.

The thing is abortion is a real cure and entirely possible unlike the magic cure. If you can cure something in a day why wait 9 months?
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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4/7/2016 1:10:38 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

1. The pregnancy isn't "punishment". It's a 9-month responsibility, after which she can give the baby up for adoption and forget that the pregnancy ever happened.
2. It doesn't matter if the rapist is "rewarded" (assuming he even wanted to be a father) because he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison. If anything, he may have to pay child support.
3. The child will know that he or she was a product of rape but that doesn't make him or her incapable of living a happy life.

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

That would be the right thing to do, though I can certainly see how my emotions might cloud my judgment.

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

Why should the child have to die?
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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4/7/2016 1:14:06 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 9:57:08 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:39:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

It doesn't have all of the same rights as an adult; neither does a child. But one right that it should share in common with an adult is the right to life, because it is a human being.

I don't see how something not intelligent enough to know it exists deserves the right to life. I don't place a particular importance on the fact the foetus is a human. It is less intelligent then a cow or a horse.

Humans in comas have rights. If someone were to kill you in your sleep it would still be murder.

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

I'm not saying that it doesn't suck for the mother, but the implications of an abortion for the unborn child are far, far, higher than the implications that carrying the child to term and then putting him or her up for adoption would have on the woman in question.

But the foetus does not know it exists? It's brain is in a very low state of development. This forced pregnancy could ruin a woman's hopes and dreams. It also creates an unwanted child. I seriously don't see the benefit. Care homes are horrible places and children receive a poor upbringing. It is also extremely expensive to look after a child in care.

Read this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

Sure, I'm all for keeping rapists away from kids.
Call me Vox, the Resident Contrarian of debate.org.

The DDO Blog:
https://debatedotorg.wordpress.com...

#drinkthecoffeenotthekoolaid
Quadrunner
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4/7/2016 4:58:26 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/6/2016 11:46:37 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 11:17:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

If I physically assault you and break your leg and it takes 9 months for basic recovery + some additional time to condition to where you were previously, are you being punished?

You don't understand. A forced pregnancy caused by a rapist is MUCH worse than a broken leg. It's not a fair comparison. It's the psychological trauma caused by knowing the child you are carrying was caused by a man raping you. One day your going to give birth to this baby forced upon you against your will containing 50% DNA of what you regard as the most evil prick ever to walk the earth. Every day the pregnancy reminds you of the attack. Denying a woman the right to an abortion following a rape is about as severe as sexism gets.

No, its just the nature of the injury I illegally inflicted on you. If you could help it would you avoid it? Of course, but realize that if you are talking to a pro-lifer they might not think killing the child is a possible option, just like your leg healing in a day from a special medical procedure is not a possible option.

The thing is abortion is a real cure and entirely possible unlike the magic cure. If you can cure something in a day why wait 9 months?

You missed the entire point in that there IS NO CURE. I'm not pro-life, but you need to understand that to them there is no magical cure. It's like saying you can kill your kid because you hate him or his Dad. You don't get to kill people out of emotion. Its not an option.

So, if you are going to argue pro-life or pro-choice don't be wishy-washy. If its human it has human rights. If its not, it has no rights.
Wisdom is found where the wise seek it.
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/7/2016 7:42:06 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 4:58:26 AM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 4/6/2016 11:46:37 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 11:17:03 PM, Quadrunner wrote:
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

If I physically assault you and break your leg and it takes 9 months for basic recovery + some additional time to condition to where you were previously, are you being punished?

You don't understand. A forced pregnancy caused by a rapist is MUCH worse than a broken leg. It's not a fair comparison. It's the psychological trauma caused by knowing the child you are carrying was caused by a man raping you. One day your going to give birth to this baby forced upon you against your will containing 50% DNA of what you regard as the most evil prick ever to walk the earth. Every day the pregnancy reminds you of the attack. Denying a woman the right to an abortion following a rape is about as severe as sexism gets.

No, its just the nature of the injury I illegally inflicted on you. If you could help it would you avoid it? Of course, but realize that if you are talking to a pro-lifer they might not think killing the child is a possible option, just like your leg healing in a day from a special medical procedure is not a possible option.

The thing is abortion is a real cure and entirely possible unlike the magic cure. If you can cure something in a day why wait 9 months?

You missed the entire point in that there IS NO CURE. I'm not pro-life, but you need to understand that to them there is no magical cure. It's like saying you can kill your kid because you hate him or his Dad. You don't get to kill people out of emotion. Its not an option.

So, if you are going to argue pro-life or pro-choice don't be wishy-washy. If its human it has human rights. If its not, it has no rights.

Well clearly it's a human. Claiming otherwise is simply wrong. It's just a human in an early stage of its development. People who are con abortion in cases of rape are blinded by the religion they follow. To force someone else to endure pregnancy after rape is stupid. If they get raped they are welcome to deal with that in whatever way they want. They have no right to force their religion down the throats of non Christians.
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/7/2016 7:46:38 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:14:06 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 9:57:08 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:39:03 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

It doesn't have all of the same rights as an adult; neither does a child. But one right that it should share in common with an adult is the right to life, because it is a human being.

I don't see how something not intelligent enough to know it exists deserves the right to life. I don't place a particular importance on the fact the foetus is a human. It is less intelligent then a cow or a horse.

Humans in comas have rights. If someone were to kill you in your sleep it would still be murder.

If someone murdered me in my sleep it would cause a lot of pain to my friends and family. I would not experience any suffering maybe but they would. In the case of the foetus it has not formed any relationships and no one is affected by its death other than its mother who decides she does not want it.

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

I'm not saying that it doesn't suck for the mother, but the implications of an abortion for the unborn child are far, far, higher than the implications that carrying the child to term and then putting him or her up for adoption would have on the woman in question.

But the foetus does not know it exists? It's brain is in a very low state of development. This forced pregnancy could ruin a woman's hopes and dreams. It also creates an unwanted child. I seriously don't see the benefit. Care homes are horrible places and children receive a poor upbringing. It is also extremely expensive to look after a child in care.

Read this.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk...

Sure, I'm all for keeping rapists away from kids.

Unfortunately the uk government does a terrible job at looking after children in care.
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Chloe8
Posts: 2,593
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4/7/2016 8:02:21 AM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 1:10:38 AM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 10:20:22 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/6/2016 7:42:50 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
At 4/6/2016 6:54:29 PM, Chloe8 wrote:
At 4/5/2016 11:20:56 PM, Vox_Veritas wrote:
Punish them. There. Done.

A Pro-Lifer may have a bias towards the woman because they can't see the fetus but they can see the woman and that it's very easy to have pity on her. But this doesn't change any of the objective facts. There are regular murderers out there who have really "good" reasons for what they've done, and it can be extremely easy to sympathize with them, but we still need to punish them.

Why does a foetus deserve the same rights as adult humans?

Why punish vulnerable women for deciding they don't want go go through 9 months of pregnancy and a lifetime of being a mother at a particular stage in their life?

Imagine a woman at university (college as americans call it) studying for a high level degree and aiming for a succesful career. Should a faulty condom on a drunken night out really have such big implications?

Just asking do you oppose abortions in cases of rape?

It can be said that banning abortion in the event of pregnancy through consenting sex is certainly justified, but I do think that simply because a person's life is at stake it should be banned even if the pregnancy happens as a result of rape (a small percentage of all unwanted pregnancies occur due to rape). In any case, if a woman uses birth control pills regularly she should be able to avoid impregnation even if raped.

That's nasty. So a woman survives a violent rape and is then forced to carry the rapists child against her will for nine months reminding her of the attack. She is punished for being raped. She has to give birth to the rapists baby, it shares physical characteristics to the attacker. It has 50% of the rapists DNA. The rapist gets rewarded for his crime and has the satisfaction of ruining the woman's life and forcing her to give birth to his child. The child grows up knowing he/she is the product of a rape. How horrible. I really don't understand this position. Expecting women to use contraceptive pills in case of rape is illogical. What if the woman is trying to conceive a child with her husband?

1. The pregnancy isn't "punishment". It's a 9-month responsibility, after which she can give the baby up for adoption and forget that the pregnancy ever happened.

So it's a 9 month sentence. The crime? Being raped. Unfair. What purpose does this punishment serve? Producing an unwanted child that costs the taxpayer 200, 000 pounds annually to Care for or not care for in the case of my country.

2. It doesn't matter if the rapist is "rewarded" (assuming he even wanted to be a father) because he's going to spend the rest of his life in prison. If anything, he may have to pay child support.

In many cases of rape I would enforce the death penalty on the rapist. Keeping someone in prison for life is a terrible idea and a complete waste of money. Either way the guy is not in a job or contributing child support. It does matter. The rapist has the psychological edge as he has forced the woman to give birth to his child against her will.

3. The child will know that he or she was a product of rape but that doesn't make him or her incapable of living a happy life.

It's not a nice thought is it. Your dad is either dead or in prison and your mum wanted to abort you and put you straight into this horrible care home.

I imagine your a religious conservative. Imagine your happy traditional family. Your 36, so is your wife. You have a daughter 14. Your wife and daughter are violently attacked by a rapist with a long criminal record of violence . Both become pregnant. Would you encourage them to give birth to these children?

That would be the right thing to do, though I can certainly see how my emotions might cloud my judgment.

Looking at how raw this case I proposed is do you not think your wife and child should be able to choose if abortion is the best option for them personally? Dont you think families in real life facing this problem should have the choice? It's wrong to make laws in supposedly free counties based on Christianity. If an atheist like me wants an abortion why stop me? If your god is true the foetus goes to heaven and god can punish me for my sins in hell. you should allow people free will in this life as Christians often say that we all have and allow your god to dish out the consequences after our deaths.

I know this is highly unlikely and extreme case but unless I show you an extreme case I doubt you will see my point. Forced pregnancy caused by rape ruins lives. The only winner is the rapist.

I can see how people have your opinion regarding consensual sex but in cases of rape, denying a woman an abortion is impossible to justify. Why should a 14 year old girl traumatized by rape be forced to go through pregnancy?

Why should the child have to die?

Because it's not fair on the 14 year old rape victim to have to give birth to the rapists baby against her will. If Christianity is true god causes out millions of miscarriages. If he hates foetus death why does this happen? If the Christian god is real the aborted foetus can go to heaven and the rape victim to hell.
Fatihah claiming he would knock out Olympic boxing gold medallist Katie Taylor and relishing the prospect of "dropping" me to make me shut up:

"I would knock you both out with ease, and drop you first so I can stop hearing you whine all the time about your jealousy for not being born a man. It's not the Qur'ans fault that the monkey you evolved from didn't ensure that you your born with the penis you so desperately want".

Fatihah, showcasing Islam in all its glory!
Vaarka
Posts: 7,545
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4/7/2016 2:28:18 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
I don't usually lounge around this subject, as I'm not solid on it, but I can say this.

I don't think abortion should be illegal. I think the idea of choice is fine.

However, I only believe that choice is okay in a few circumstances. If the woman is raped, then I'd say I might go with choice. If it's a very young girl who will likely die if she goes through with the pregnancy and birth, then choice. If it's any woman who will likely die, as well as the fetus, then choice. If the baby is likely to be born with one of those disabilities that usually cause it to die within hours or days of birth, then choice.

Otherwise, no. I might make a few other exceptions, but if a woman gets pregnant, and then decides "Nah, I don't want it," then that's her fault. If she just doesn't want it, or doesn't think she can raise it well, or whatever, then too bad. I believe getting an abortion purely because you don't want the child, when you decided to have sex, or whatever, isn't justified. What they do with the child afterwards, I don't care.

Also, one of my friends, who's adopted, probably would've been aborted if it wasn't unpopular when he was born. He actually knows his birthmom and spent a week with her last week.
You're probably thinking right now "haha I'm a genius". Well you're not -Valkrin

inferno: "I don't know, are you attracted to women?"
ButterCatX: "No, Vaarka is mine!"

All hail scum Vaarka, wielder of the bastard sword, smiter of nations, destroyer of spiders -VOT

"Vaarka, I've been thinking about this for a long time now," (pulls out small box made of macaroni) "W-will you be my noodle buddy?" -Kirigaya
famousdebater
Posts: 3,940
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4/7/2016 3:41:38 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/5/2016 4:46:30 PM, smelisox wrote:
http://www.patheos.com...

You shuld read my abortion debate with Donald.Keller. I did bring this argument up and I did win the debate however there are a LOT of valid objections to it.
"Life calls the tune, we dance."
John Galsworthy
smelisox
Posts: 849
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4/8/2016 8:13:57 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
At 4/7/2016 2:28:18 PM, Vaarka wrote:
I don't usually lounge around this subject, as I'm not solid on it, but I can say this.

I don't think abortion should be illegal. I think the idea of choice is fine.

However, I only believe that choice is okay in a few circumstances. If the woman is raped, then I'd say I might go with choice. If it's a very young girl who will likely die if she goes through with the pregnancy and birth, then choice. If it's any woman who will likely die, as well as the fetus, then choice. If the baby is likely to be born with one of those disabilities that usually cause it to die within hours or days of birth, then choice.

Otherwise, no. I might make a few other exceptions, but if a woman gets pregnant, and then decides "Nah, I don't want it," then that's her fault. If she just doesn't want it, or doesn't think she can raise it well, or whatever, then too bad. I believe getting an abortion purely because you don't want the child, when you decided to have sex, or whatever, isn't justified. What they do with the child afterwards, I don't care.

Also, one of my friends, who's adopted, probably would've been aborted if it wasn't unpopular when he was born. He actually knows his birthmom and spent a week with her last week.

What? You don't care what they do with the child?

And you call yourself a human being? Were you dropped on the head, probably a failed abortion, now I think of it. So beating and raping a child, then cutting off his legs and throwing him down the stairs is better than an abortion?

I hope Buddhists are right, and you keep getting reincarnated forever as a foetus who gets aborted.
smelisox
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4/8/2016 8:14:25 PM
Posted: 8 months ago
Also, people who can't spell foetus shouldn't really dictate it's right to live or die.
Leugen9001
Posts: 495
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4/9/2016 1:15:22 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/8/2016 8:14:25 PM, smelisox wrote:
Also, people who can't spell foetus shouldn't really dictate it's right to live or die.

"Fetus" is, in fact, a legit alternative spelling.
:) nac