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Debate.org: The bigot invasion

F-16_Fighting_Falcon
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4/11/2016 11:12:59 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Perhaps I have a rosier view of times gone by but when I was a new member, there were several intelligent and thoughtful members and very few bigots. I recall there were a couple of guys from Stormfront, a white supremacist site and JosephMengele, a nazi but the site universally condemned them. JimTimmy was another example. They were given a venue to debate and judged fairly but very few took them seriously beyond considering them mere trolls.

Now, however the level of bigotry is so high that "respectable" members actually have been presenting arguments like "the suit and tie are part of white culture" and "the personal computer is a white cultural artifact."

When called out on their bigotry, the universal response consists of two things: a) complaints about being labelled a bigot (if you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot, duh), and b) my viewpoint also has merit, why won't you consider it.

My feeling in response can best be described through an analogy. Let's say you are having a conversation with someone and they claim that the holocaust was justified or that blacks should still be enslaved. You dismiss them out of hand and consider them stupid and bigoted. Then, they complain "but my side of the argument has merit too! Why aren't you considering my points? You have your opinion and I have mine!" At this point, it seems like the best thing to say to these people is that their opinions are repulsive and have no place in the modern world.

A lot of Trump supporters bring up these arguments: what's wrong with Trump calling women a pig, dog, and what not? What's wrong with banning Muslims? Do they really not have such a basic level of intelligence to see what's wrong with their viewpoints? I take Trump supporters as seriously as I do a contemporary Nazi and suggesting that they have an equally valid viewpoint is like asking "why was the holocaust a bad thing?"
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:03:53 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
This is something I've been wondering about too. Has DDO always been this way or am I just noticing it more?

It's funny, because I have a very different perspective on the people you mentioned. I, too, initially thought they were trolls not meant to be taken seriously, but then I started seeing other "respected" members take them seriously. I don't think it's fair to say no one took jimtimmy or the others seriously when jimtimmy's debates on white people being racially superior to blacks won or were close, when several members defended his right to be racist under the guise of "science," and when several members continued to harbour false beliefs about other races. There were times when I think I was the only person consistently responding to the racist threads/posts (then Royal joined). So to me, DDO has always kind of been a pretty hostile environment that has allowed for and encouraged the kind of vitriol we see on here today.

Over the past few years, I've lost a lot of interest in being here because of it, so I wouldn't say it's new. People would ask me in the Hangouts why I don't come on DDO anymore and I would just say I don't get anything out of being on here anymore, or that it's a time suck. But the reality is that the more I study what I study and the more I learn, the more I realize how fruitless it is to talk about the topics I care about with ignorant, uneducated people. It'd be one thing if there was some form of mutual exchange, like if people brought interesting perspectives, but for the most part, they are just wrong on the most basic level. And that's not fun or interesting to me.

imo DDO has always been pretty hostile to anyone who is not a white male. I could theorize about it forever but I feel like this thread is not for that lol. I don't think there's more bigotry now per se, but the fact that people (e.g., me) are here calling sh!t out. I also notice that any time I post about privilege or something, several threads pop on either in direct response or just in opposition. The bigotry was always there, but I think I pulled it to the forefront.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
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4/12/2016 12:15:17 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:03:53 AM, lamerde wrote:
This is something I've been wondering about too. Has DDO always been this way or am I just noticing it more?

It's funny, because I have a very different perspective on the people you mentioned. I, too, initially thought they were trolls not meant to be taken seriously, but then I started seeing other "respected" members take them seriously. I don't think it's fair to say no one took jimtimmy or the others seriously when jimtimmy's debates on white people being racially superior to blacks won or were close, when several members defended his right to be racist under the guise of "science," and when several members continued to harbour false beliefs about other races. There were times when I think I was the only person consistently responding to the racist threads/posts (then Royal joined). So to me, DDO has always kind of been a pretty hostile environment that has allowed for and encouraged the kind of vitriol we see on here today.

Over the past few years, I've lost a lot of interest in being here because of it, so I wouldn't say it's new. People would ask me in the Hangouts why I don't come on DDO anymore and I would just say I don't get anything out of being on here anymore, or that it's a time suck. But the reality is that the more I study what I study and the more I learn, the more I realize how fruitless it is to talk about the topics I care about with ignorant, uneducated people. It'd be one thing if there was some form of mutual exchange, like if people brought interesting perspectives, but for the most part, they are just wrong on the most basic level. And that's not fun or interesting to me.

imo DDO has always been pretty hostile to anyone who is not a white male. I could theorize about it forever but I feel like this thread is not for that lol. I don't think there's more bigotry now per se, but the fact that people (e.g., me) are here calling sh!t out. I also notice that any time I post about privilege or something, several threads pop on either in direct response or just in opposition. The bigotry was always there, but I think I pulled it to the forefront.

To the bolded - this! And then they'll sitting around wondering why there aren't more non white male members (and then rationalize as "well, maybe white guys are just more interested in these topics" blah blah blah).
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:23:50 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:15:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:

To the bolded - this! And then they'll sitting around wondering why there aren't more non white male members (and then rationalize as "well, maybe white guys are just more interested in these topics" blah blah blah).

The rationalization is the best part.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
someloser
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4/12/2016 12:41:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Point-'n-shriekers such as OP will always gasp about how "obviously wrong" certain positions are, but when forced to justify, they mysteriously fall silent. Certainly does look like they don't know why they hold their positions in the first place. Or they're simply too scared to get to the point, and deem it much more productive to cry out recycled, stale buzzwords from Huffington Post.

Maybe they're just projecting?

But credit must be given where it is due. So, I have to admit, OP has really outdone themselves with this one. I knew it was going to be funny, but nowhere near this caliber. Encore, encore!

At 4/11/2016 11:12:59 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
the level of bigotry is so high that "respectable" members actually have been presenting arguments like "the suit and tie are part of white culture"
Oh noez. How horrible. The sky is fvcking falling! Will someone think of the children?

Clearly, this contemptible practice must be met with immediate disciplinary action!

and "the personal computer is a white cultural artifact."
It seems you struggle with reading. And understanding context.

Had you actually payed attention (beyond skimming to find something to put your fainting couch to use), you would've noted that I said personal computers could be considered "white cultural artifacts" (whatever that means), under a particular, hypothetical circumstance.

Of course, this doesn't fit the painting of duh ebul wyat supremuhcist, so it was conveniently left out.

When called out on their bigotry,
Translation: When called a name

the universal response consists of two things: a) complaints about being labelled a bigot (if you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot, duh)
Heaven forbid we don't expect our opposition to act like name-calling little children.

and b) my viewpoint also has merit, why won't you consider it.
It is -extremely- telling that you portray this as a bad thing

My feeling in response can best be described through an analogy. Let's say you are having a conversation with someone and they claim that the holocaust was justified or that blacks should still be enslaved. You dismiss them out of hand and consider them stupid and bigoted.
Because that's somehow comparable to saying "suits are a historically European hallmark" or "diversity isn't good". How's molehill climbing going? You must be exhausted.

Then, they complain "but my side of the argument has merit too! Why aren't you considering my points? You have your opinion and I have mine!"
Heaven forbid we expect you to. It's not like this is a debating forum, where you're supposed to debate and not spend your whole time crying about political boogeymen

At this point, it seems like the best thing to say to these people is that their opinions are repulsive and have no place in the modern world.
Translation: OP can't come up with anything better than crying names and running away from sp00ky ideas.

Suffices to say, this tactic fail on a rhetorical and dialectical level. Not only is it logically irrelevant, but utterly unconvincing to anyone involved.

A lot of Trump supporters bring up these arguments: what's wrong with Trump calling women a pig, dog, and what not?
And the reply will essentially amount to *crickets*

What's wrong with banning Muslims?
*more crickets*

Do they really not have such a basic level of intelligence to see what's wrong with their viewpoints?
Your idea of intelligence vs what intelligence is in reality are entirely different, and largely unrelated concepts. Any correspondence is at most coincidental.

I take Trump supporters as seriously as I do a contemporary Nazi
Stop flagellating yourself. It's painful to watch

and suggesting that they have an equally valid viewpoint is like asking "why was the holocaust a bad thing?"
I bet you couldn't answer that either.

Point-'n-shriekers always gasp about how "obviously wrong" certain positions are, but when forced to justify, they mysteriously fall silent. Certainly does look like they don't know why they hold their positions in the first place. Or they're simply too scared to get to the point, and deem it much more productive to cry out recycled, stale buzzwords from Huffington Post.

Maybe they're just projecting? You're not tall enough for this ride, OP.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
Posts: 13,102
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4/12/2016 12:41:58 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:15:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:03:53 AM, lamerde wrote:
This is something I've been wondering about too. Has DDO always been this way or am I just noticing it more?

It's funny, because I have a very different perspective on the people you mentioned. I, too, initially thought they were trolls not meant to be taken seriously, but then I started seeing other "respected" members take them seriously. I don't think it's fair to say no one took jimtimmy or the others seriously when jimtimmy's debates on white people being racially superior to blacks won or were close, when several members defended his right to be racist under the guise of "science," and when several members continued to harbour false beliefs about other races. There were times when I think I was the only person consistently responding to the racist threads/posts (then Royal joined). So to me, DDO has always kind of been a pretty hostile environment that has allowed for and encouraged the kind of vitriol we see on here today.

Over the past few years, I've lost a lot of interest in being here because of it, so I wouldn't say it's new. People would ask me in the Hangouts why I don't come on DDO anymore and I would just say I don't get anything out of being on here anymore, or that it's a time suck. But the reality is that the more I study what I study and the more I learn, the more I realize how fruitless it is to talk about the topics I care about with ignorant, uneducated people. It'd be one thing if there was some form of mutual exchange, like if people brought interesting perspectives, but for the most part, they are just wrong on the most basic level. And that's not fun or interesting to me.

imo DDO has always been pretty hostile to anyone who is not a white male. I could theorize about it forever but I feel like this thread is not for that lol. I don't think there's more bigotry now per se, but the fact that people (e.g., me) are here calling sh!t out. I also notice that any time I post about privilege or something, several threads pop on either in direct response or just in opposition. The bigotry was always there, but I think I pulled it to the forefront.


To the bolded - this! And then they'll sitting around wondering why there aren't more non white male members (and then rationalize as "well, maybe white guys are just more interested in these topics" blah blah blah).

We also barely have any female members...we might be dominated by white males - but implying the members are "hostile" to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:45:46 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:41:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

We also barely have any female members...we might be dominated by white males - but implying the members are "hostile" to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid.

The absurdity of a white male saying members are not hostile to non-white male members... I can't. You don't see the hostility because it's not directed at you?? Why would the opinion of a person who's not experiencing hostility trump the experience of those who do?

And yes, there are barely any female members... I wonder why. Fun fact, there have been women (including myself) who have either not put a gender or put male on their profile due to hostility. But I'm sure you'll rationalize that away too.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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4/12/2016 12:45:47 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Seems I repeated a section within my post.

That's really too bad - but I don't think OP will mind, given how 40% of their posts consist of the same word (or some variant). Apparently, it's Super Effective.

Jokes aside though, it might work next time. Keep dreaming!
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
someloser
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4/12/2016 12:48:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:45:46 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:41:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
We also barely have any female members...we might be dominated by white males - but implying the members are "hostile" to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid.

The absurdity of a white male saying members are not hostile to non-white male members... I can't. You don't see the hostility because it's not directed at you??
Would you rather have someone who is not white repeating it? Here: "implying the members are 'hostile' to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid."

OK, anecdotes aside, nice to see the thread is getting some attention. Bring the popcorn lads
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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4/12/2016 12:51:08 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:45:46 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:41:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

We also barely have any female members...we might be dominated by white males - but implying the members are "hostile" to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid.

The absurdity of a white male saying members are not hostile to non-white male members... I can't. You don't see the hostility because it's not directed at you?? Why would the opinion of a person who's not experiencing hostility trump the experience of those who do?

Look, I've gotten "hostility" for being a gay person on this site. Just because some fvcks were hostile doesn't mean the site is hostile to my sexual minority. We aren't stormfront. We might have some members who frequent that forum, but it's hard for an entire userbase to be hostile to groups of people on a site with no direct initiative except debate.

And yes, there are barely any female members... I wonder why. Fun fact, there have been women (including myself) who have either not put a gender or put male on their profile due to hostility. But I'm sure you'll rationalize that away too.

The female thing I get more. Men who have set their profile to female can attest to the random inappropriate messages they've gotten because of it. That doesn't mean, however, that the base as we know it is necessarily "hostile".
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:53:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:48:54 AM, someloser wrote:

Would you rather have someone who is not white repeating it? Here: "implying the members are 'hostile' to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid."

OK, anecdotes aside, nice to see the thread is getting some attention. Bring the popcorn lads

Sure. You also tend to agree with white males on racial matters so I don't really see the distinction. If you were a known "racial minority" and had unfavourable views to white males, it would be a different story. This forum is hostile to perspectives outside of the white male, and by extension racialized people or women who espouse views they don't like. So it's a combination of 1) having a contrary view and 2) not being a white male. If a white male said the things I say, they wouldn't be attacked as viciously.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/12/2016 12:53:38 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:41:58 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:15:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:03:53 AM, lamerde wrote:
This is something I've been wondering about too. Has DDO always been this way or am I just noticing it more?

It's funny, because I have a very different perspective on the people you mentioned. I, too, initially thought they were trolls not meant to be taken seriously, but then I started seeing other "respected" members take them seriously. I don't think it's fair to say no one took jimtimmy or the others seriously when jimtimmy's debates on white people being racially superior to blacks won or were close, when several members defended his right to be racist under the guise of "science," and when several members continued to harbour false beliefs about other races. There were times when I think I was the only person consistently responding to the racist threads/posts (then Royal joined). So to me, DDO has always kind of been a pretty hostile environment that has allowed for and encouraged the kind of vitriol we see on here today.

Over the past few years, I've lost a lot of interest in being here because of it, so I wouldn't say it's new. People would ask me in the Hangouts why I don't come on DDO anymore and I would just say I don't get anything out of being on here anymore, or that it's a time suck. But the reality is that the more I study what I study and the more I learn, the more I realize how fruitless it is to talk about the topics I care about with ignorant, uneducated people. It'd be one thing if there was some form of mutual exchange, like if people brought interesting perspectives, but for the most part, they are just wrong on the most basic level. And that's not fun or interesting to me.

imo DDO has always been pretty hostile to anyone who is not a white male. I could theorize about it forever but I feel like this thread is not for that lol. I don't think there's more bigotry now per se, but the fact that people (e.g., me) are here calling sh!t out. I also notice that any time I post about privilege or something, several threads pop on either in direct response or just in opposition. The bigotry was always there, but I think I pulled it to the forefront.


To the bolded - this! And then they'll sitting around wondering why there aren't more non white male members (and then rationalize as "well, maybe white guys are just more interested in these topics" blah blah blah).

We also barely have any female members...we might be dominated by white males - but implying the members are "hostile" to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid.

Cool story, bro. And you'd have some sort special insight to this how?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
1harderthanyouthink
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4/12/2016 12:57:04 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:53:11 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:48:54 AM, someloser wrote:

Would you rather have someone who is not white repeating it? Here: "implying the members are 'hostile' to members who aren't white and male is, in my opinion, just stupid."

OK, anecdotes aside, nice to see the thread is getting some attention. Bring the popcorn lads

Sure. You also tend to agree with white males on racial matters so I don't really see the distinction. If you were a known "racial minority" and had unfavourable views to white males, it would be a different story. This forum is hostile to perspectives outside of the white male, and by extension racialized people or women who espouse views they don't like. So it's a combination of 1) having a contrary view and 2) not being a white male. If a white male said the things I say, they wouldn't be attacked as viciously.

There is no inherent view of white males. That's strike two.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:57:43 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:51:08 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Look, I've gotten "hostility" for being a gay person on this site. Just because some fvcks were hostile doesn't mean the site is hostile to my sexual minority. We aren't stormfront. We might have some members who frequent that forum, but it's hard for an entire userbase to be hostile to groups of people on a site with no direct initiative except debate.

And yet the majority of "respected members" are either gay or pro-gay. I don't venture into the religion forums but outside of it, there isn't a whole lot of anti-gay sentiment.

I'm not saying the entire userbase is hostile to those who aren't white males. However, there is a critical mass of angry white males who make the site a hostile environment overall.

The female thing I get more. Men who have set their profile to female can attest to the random inappropriate messages they've gotten because of it. That doesn't mean, however, that the base as we know it is necessarily "hostile".

So the men who change their gender get some messages once in a while. That's a far cry from being in the forums and being known as a woman. Most people know or assume that people like thett and maikuru who have "woman" as their gender are faking. I'm sorry, but your lack of experience with hostility due to your gender just doesn't hold any weight.

There is a lot of anti-feminist sentiment on here, as well as anti-women sentiment.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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4/12/2016 12:58:27 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:57:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

There is no inherent view of white males. That's strike two.

You should pick up a history book... or a sociology book... or a political science book... or a psychology book... shall I go on?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
1harderthanyouthink
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4/12/2016 1:00:28 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:58:27 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:57:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

There is no inherent view of white males. That's strike two.

You should pick up a history book... or a sociology book... or a political science book... or a psychology book... shall I go on?

Classic condescension...But I fail to see even the basis of your point.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
lamerde
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4/12/2016 1:01:27 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:00:28 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:58:27 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:57:04 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

There is no inherent view of white males. That's strike two.

You should pick up a history book... or a sociology book... or a political science book... or a psychology book... shall I go on?

Classic condescension...But I fail to see even the basis of your point.

And I am okay with that.
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
popculturepooka
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4/12/2016 1:03:39 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
Can't wait for someone to bring up Danielle (or Logical_Master, or Kleptin,) as counterxamples.

*waiting on tenterhooks*
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
1harderthanyouthink
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4/12/2016 1:05:56 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:57:43 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:51:08 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

Look, I've gotten "hostility" for being a gay person on this site. Just because some fvcks were hostile doesn't mean the site is hostile to my sexual minority. We aren't stormfront. We might have some members who frequent that forum, but it's hard for an entire userbase to be hostile to groups of people on a site with no direct initiative except debate.

And yet the majority of "respected members" are either gay or pro-gay. I don't venture into the religion forums but outside of it, there isn't a whole lot of anti-gay sentiment.

And the majority of respected members don't support civil rights for blacks? Sure.

I'm not saying the entire userbase is hostile to those who aren't white males. However, there is a critical mass of angry white males who make the site a hostile environment overall.

Disagreement on a debate site? Wow.

The female thing I get more. Men who have set their profile to female can attest to the random inappropriate messages they've gotten because of it. That doesn't mean, however, that the base as we know it is necessarily "hostile".

So the men who change their gender get some messages once in a while. That's a far cry from being in the forums and being known as a woman. Most people know or assume that people like thett and maikuru who have "woman" as their gender are faking. I'm sorry, but your lack of experience with hostility due to your gender just doesn't hold any weight.

I mean, I've seen some messages. They were pretty fucked up...and I've seen some long-lasting harassment.

But let's be real here. You're going to tell me no women are respected by the majority of the real base?

There is a lot of anti-feminist sentiment on here, as well as anti-women sentiment.

Anti-feminist? Go to a different site if you don't want that. Anti-woman? You'd be hard pressed to convince me there's a lot of anti-woman sentiment.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
popculturepooka
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4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:05:56 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:

I'm not saying the entire userbase is hostile to those who aren't white males. However, there is a critical mass of angry white males who make the site a hostile environment overall.

Disagreement on a debate site? Wow.


How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
someloser
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4/12/2016 1:13:44 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
Might have to do with the fact that it's lamerde saying it.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
1harderthanyouthink
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4/12/2016 1:17:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:05:56 AM, 1harderthanyouthink wrote:
I'm not saying the entire userbase is hostile to those who aren't white males. However, there is a critical mass of angry white males who make the site a hostile environment overall.

Disagreement on a debate site? Wow.

How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?

Well first I think this hostile mass is overestimated in size. Second they just have a different point of view - as long as nobody's rights are being violated I don't see much issue...so hostile environment is a bit oversensitive, in my opinion. You can say I don't walk in your shoes, but you can circlejerk in a PM.
"It's awfully considerate of you to think of me here,
And I'm much obliged to you for making it clear - that I'm not here."

-Syd Barrett

DDO Risk King
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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4/12/2016 1:19:14 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:13:44 AM, someloser wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
Might have to do with the fact that it's lamerde saying it.

Not sure what you mean....are you talking about from his perspective or yours?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
someloser
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4/12/2016 1:20:56 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:19:14 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:13:44 AM, someloser wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
Might have to do with the fact that it's lamerde saying it.

Not sure what you mean....are you talking about from his perspective or yours?
His, maybe. Can't claim to be a mindreader
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Runn92
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4/12/2016 1:21:46 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 12:15:17 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 4/12/2016 12:03:53 AM, lamerde wrote:
This is something I've been wondering about too. Has DDO always been this way or am I just noticing it more?

It's funny, because I have a very different perspective on the people you mentioned. I, too, initially thought they were trolls not meant to be taken seriously, but then I started seeing other "respected" members take them seriously. I don't think it's fair to say no one took jimtimmy or the others seriously when jimtimmy's debates on white people being racially superior to blacks won or were close, when several members defended his right to be racist under the guise of "science," and when several members continued to harbour false beliefs about other races. There were times when I think I was the only person consistently responding to the racist threads/posts (then Royal joined). So to me, DDO has always kind of been a pretty hostile environment that has allowed for and encouraged the kind of vitriol we see on here today.

Over the past few years, I've lost a lot of interest in being here because of it, so I wouldn't say it's new. People would ask me in the Hangouts why I don't come on DDO anymore and I would just say I don't get anything out of being on here anymore, or that it's a time suck. But the reality is that the more I study what I study and the more I learn, the more I realize how fruitless it is to talk about the topics I care about with ignorant, uneducated people. It'd be one thing if there was some form of mutual exchange, like if people brought interesting perspectives, but for the most part, they are just wrong on the most basic level. And that's not fun or interesting to me.

imo DDO has always been pretty hostile to anyone who is not a white male. I could theorize about it forever but I feel like this thread is not for that lol. I don't think there's more bigotry now per se, but the fact that people (e.g., me) are here calling sh!t out. I also notice that any time I post about privilege or something, several threads pop on either in direct response or just in opposition. The bigotry was always there, but I think I pulled it to the forefront.


To the bolded - this! And then they'll sitting around wondering why there aren't more non white male members (and then rationalize as "well, maybe white guys are just more interested in these topics" blah blah blah).

It couldn't possibly be that white males, on average, are more interested in debate than the shrieking black women invading college campuses this fall
lamerde
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4/12/2016 1:21:54 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:13:44 AM, someloser wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
Might have to do with the fact that it's lamerde saying it.

Where did I say that?
Why I ignore YYW:
http://www.debate.org...
http://www.debate.org...
Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
someloser
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4/12/2016 1:23:11 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/12/2016 1:21:54 AM, lamerde wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:13:44 AM, someloser wrote:
At 4/12/2016 1:11:26 AM, popculturepooka wrote:
How do you interpret "hostile environment" to merely mean "disagreement"?
Might have to do with the fact that it's lamerde saying it.

Where did I say that?
Weird, quote showed up under a different author when I was writing the reply. My mistake
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Runn92
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4/12/2016 1:26:14 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 4/11/2016 11:12:59 PM, F-16_Fighting_Falcon wrote:
Perhaps I have a rosier view of times gone by but when I was a new member, there were several intelligent and thoughtful members and very few bigots. I recall there were a couple of guys from Stormfront, a white supremacist site and JosephMengele, a nazi but the site universally condemned them. JimTimmy was another example. They were given a venue to debate and judged fairly but very few took them seriously beyond considering them mere trolls.

Now, however the level of bigotry is so high that "respectable" members actually have been presenting arguments like "the suit and tie are part of white culture" and "the personal computer is a white cultural artifact."

The fact that those statements are largely accurate just makes them all the more offensive.


When called out on their bigotry, the universal response consists of two things: a) complaints about being labelled a bigot (if you say bigoted things, people will call you a bigot, duh), and b) my viewpoint also has merit, why won't you consider it.

Considering viewpoints based on merit!? What do people think this is? Nazi Germany!?


My feeling in response can best be described through an analogy. Let's say you are having a conversation with someone and they claim that the holocaust was justified or that blacks should still be enslaved. You dismiss them out of hand and consider them stupid and bigoted. Then, they complain "but my side of the argument has merit too! Why aren't you considering my points? You have your opinion and I have mine!" At this point, it seems like the best thing to say to these people is that their opinions are repulsive and have no place in the modern world.

Of course, the analogy between those arguments and people questioning current immigration levels is perfect.


A lot of Trump supporters bring up these arguments: what's wrong with Trump calling women a pig, dog, and what not? What's wrong with banning Muslims? Do they really not have such a basic level of intelligence to see what's wrong with their viewpoints? I take Trump supporters as seriously as I do a contemporary Nazi and suggesting that they have an equally valid viewpoint is like asking "why was the holocaust a bad thing?"

Really Trump supporters are worse. In fact, why do we even allow them to have a viewpoint?

Yes, they have been proven right over and over again when it comes to illegal immigration and Islam but that just makes them more deplorable to intelligent people.