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Veganism.

popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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11/26/2010 8:59:55 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?
I would challenge (2) as well. Meat is an essential part of our diets.
I miss the old members.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:03:57 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, challenging (1) is definitely what I would do. Like this!

1) How is it wrong?

2) It's not only for "pleasure" but also for the necessary nutrients and vitamins (zinc, iron, protein, B vitamins, etc.) that come from eating meat

3) There are multiple advantages to eating meat which would be illogical to ignore on the basis that hurting animals makes someone "feel bad"
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/26/2010 9:05:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:59:55 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?
I would challenge (2) as well. Meat is an essential part of our diets.

Did you mean essential as in meat eating is a staple of various cultural dietary habits or essential as we need meat to survive? I don't think the latter is true - at least not anymore.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
popculturepooka
Posts: 7,924
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11/26/2010 9:07:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:03:57 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, challenging (1) is definitely what I would do. Like this!

1) How is it wrong?

2) It's not only for "pleasure" but also for the necessary nutrients and vitamins (zinc, iron, protein, B vitamins, etc.) that come from eating meat

3) There are multiple advantages to eating meat which would be illogical to ignore on the basis that hurting animals makes someone "feel bad"

WRT to 2) Francione would make the argument that eating meat isn't necessary to obtain those nutrients anymore. As far as I know (with my limited knowledge of nutrients and foods and all that) that is true.
At 10/3/2016 11:49:13 PM, thett3 wrote:
BLACK LIVES MATTER!
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:13:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:07:37 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:03:57 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, challenging (1) is definitely what I would do. Like this!

1) How is it wrong?

2) It's not only for "pleasure" but also for the necessary nutrients and vitamins (zinc, iron, protein, B vitamins, etc.) that come from eating meat

3) There are multiple advantages to eating meat which would be illogical to ignore on the basis that hurting animals makes someone "feel bad"

WRT to 2) Francione would make the argument that eating meat isn't necessary to obtain those nutrients anymore. As far as I know (with my limited knowledge of nutrients and foods and all that) that is true.

Yes, you could consume eight pills and supplementary vitamins with careful doses so that your kidneys don't have to overwork. Or, you could consume beef that has 2.7mg of iron per 100g, and 4.1mg of zinc. Which, not surprisingly, is enough to be sufficient intake for a meal. It comes down to convenience for me - I'd rather eat a steak than consult my doctor for the necessary levels of vitamins/proteins that I need since I'm not eating meat anymore. Just eat the meat!

Fun tip: eating meat (especially red meat) aids weight loss.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/26/2010 9:15:43 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What if we could grow meat from animal cells without slaughter?
http://en.wikipedia.org...
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 9:18:04 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:59:55 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?
I would challenge (2) as well. Meat is an essential part of our diets.

Meat is not an essential part of our diet. It has proteins we need, yes, but there is nothing you need in meat which you can't get from many other non-meat foods. Also, animal fat is horrible for you and the majority of the pesticides you intake come from meats which is probably why vegetarians live, on average, 7 years longer.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 9:22:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:15:43 PM, bluesteel wrote:
What if we could grow meat from animal cells without slaughter?
http://en.wikipedia.org...

That would be great but I still wouldn't eat it based on health reasons. Maybe they can grow it with all the crud gone.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:24:29 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:18:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:59:55 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?
I would challenge (2) as well. Meat is an essential part of our diets.

Meat is not an essential part of our diet.

The proteins and nutrients it gives are essential.

It has proteins we need, yes, but there is nothing you need in meat which you can't get from many other non-meat foods.

Not in the same concentration or at the same convenience. Plus, B vitamins is only found in animal cells and the pills that would be substituted would have to be extremely high doses - which then leads to kidney damage since there would be excess. Proteins, that can be found elsewhere, are not complete proteins (they do not have the same amino acid build up as proteins found in meat). And while zinc can be found elsewhere, meat is the most efficient way.

Also, animal fat is horrible for you and the majority of the pesticides you intake come from meats which is probably why vegetarians live, on average, 7 years longer.

In the US, yes. However, meat hormones have been outlawed in Europe and efforts to outlaw them in the States have been ongoing.

Now, really, I wouldn't have a problem with finding proteins or vitamins elsewhere - if there was a good cause. And the "it's wrong" argument is NOT viable in my mind.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/26/2010 9:34:23 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.

this first one here's screwy.

It is "right" to do what gives me pleasure.

However! cruelly harming animals does not give me pleasure... and when other's do it it brings Displeasure.

so people ough not cruelly harm animals.

when people kill them quick... it's MUCH less displeasurable when I hear of it..

AND being that Meat is so darned tasty... having a good butcher around would definitely be a good thing to do...

though, I'd say he should be careful not to cause the cow uneccessary suffering.

(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

agreed.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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11/26/2010 9:36:18 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
For something to be truly "essential" in the sense that it is necessary, there would have to be no other alternative, or sensible alternative. Protein supplements and other pills of whatever aren't sensible, to me at least. Just because technology has provided us with the ability to grow tremendously while watching football (steroids), doesn't mean animals are now suddenly exempt from being eaten. Besides... if we didn't eat them, they would overpopulate and starve of scarce resources.

Basically, we kill them so they don't die.
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/26/2010 9:36:37 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:34:23 PM, mattrodstrom wrote:
However! cruelly harming animals does not give me pleasure... and when other's do it it brings Displeasure.

for me, that is.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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11/26/2010 9:38:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:36:18 PM, m93samman wrote:
For something to be truly "essential" in the sense that it is necessary, there would have to be no other alternative, or sensible alternative. Protein supplements and other pills of whatever aren't sensible, to me at least. Just because technology has provided us with the ability to grow tremendously while watching football (steroids), doesn't mean animals are now suddenly exempt from being eaten. Besides... if we didn't eat them, they would overpopulate and starve of scarce resources.

Basically, we kill and eat them so they don't die.

fix'd
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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11/26/2010 9:44:42 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Huh? I thought it was the left...
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:47:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:44:42 PM, m93samman wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Huh? I thought it was the left...

Lol smart@ss.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
m93samman
Posts: 2,685
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11/26/2010 9:49:02 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:47:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:44:42 PM, m93samman wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Huh? I thought it was the left...

Lol smart@ss.

Tee-hee-hee
: At 4/15/2011 5:29:37 PM, CosmicAlfonzo wrote:
: Pascal's wager is for poosies.
:
: I mean that sincerly, because it's basically an argument from poooosie.
:
: I'm pretty sure that's like a fallacy.. Argument ad Pussium or something like that.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 9:51:53 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Lol, I don't just eat plants. Veggies, fruits, nuts, spices, cheese, egg, milk, artificial food. After you get used to it it surprisingly isn't much of a loss.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 9:53:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:51:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Lol, I don't just eat plants. Veggies, fruits, nuts, spices, cheese, egg, milk, artificial food. After you get used to it it surprisingly isn't much of a loss.

I'm German. Without my sausages, I have no will to live. (That's what she said) :P
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 10:02:05 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:53:00 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:51:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Lol, I don't just eat plants. Veggies, fruits, nuts, spices, cheese, egg, milk, artificial food. After you get used to it it surprisingly isn't much of a loss.

I'm German. Without my sausages, I have no will to live. (That's what she said) :P

It's easy to find fake meat that feels and tastes just like the real thing. I had tofurkey for Thanksgiving, it was fantastic.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 10:05:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 10:02:05 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:53:00 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:51:53 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:42:49 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:39:09 PM, FREEDO wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:37:39 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:34:38 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Ann, only Vegans, not normal vegetarians, have to worry about B vitamins. And the only kind it they have a problem with is B12.
http://www.livestrong.com...

Ah, good to know. ^_^

Now, I do concede that meat brings potential risks (like everything these days) but in moderation, I do believe that meat is a more efficient way of intaking necessary nutrients, proteins and vitamins.

Even if vegetarians live 7 years longer and have 40% less chance of getting cancer?

Would I WANT to live 7 years longer if I could only eat plants? Nope. And if meat doesn't give me cancer, staring at the microwave or sleeping on the right side of my pillow will. Since everything these days leads to some type of cancer. :rolls eyes:

Lol, I don't just eat plants. Veggies, fruits, nuts, spices, cheese, egg, milk, artificial food. After you get used to it it surprisingly isn't much of a loss.

I'm German. Without my sausages, I have no will to live. (That's what she said) :P

It's easy to find fake meat that feels and tastes just like the real thing. I had tofurkey for Thanksgiving, it was fantastic.

I have a vegetarian friend and she's tried making me eat that "fake" meat stuff... YUCK. I've had the real thing, man! I KNOW what it tastes like! And after you've had currywurst, you don't go back. <shrugs> I'm omnivorous and I always will be.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
J.Kenyon
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11/26/2010 10:13:39 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 9:18:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Meat is not an essential part of our diet. It has proteins we need, yes, but there is nothing you need in meat which you can't get from many other non-meat foods. Also, animal fat is horrible for you and the majority of the pesticides you intake come from meats which is probably why vegetarians live, on average, 7 years longer.

So? Lay off the double bacon cheeseburgers. That doesn't mean you have to forgo all meat. I haven't seen the study (because you never linked to it), but it's probably biased. You've got to compare apples to apples. The average American gorges himself at McDonald's. Vegetarians in general tend to be more health conscious. What's the worst thing they can do? Stuff their faces at the tofu bar? You have to take those things into account. Compare a group of vegetarians who eat a balanced diet to people who eat a similarly balanced diet, but incorporating moderate amounts of meat.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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11/26/2010 10:30:44 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 10:13:39 PM, J.Kenyon wrote:
At 11/26/2010 9:18:04 PM, FREEDO wrote:
Meat is not an essential part of our diet. It has proteins we need, yes, but there is nothing you need in meat which you can't get from many other non-meat foods. Also, animal fat is horrible for you and the majority of the pesticides you intake come from meats which is probably why vegetarians live, on average, 7 years longer.

So? Lay off the double bacon cheeseburgers. That doesn't mean you have to forgo all meat. I haven't seen the study (because you never linked to it), but it's probably biased. You've got to compare apples to apples. The average American gorges himself at McDonald's. Vegetarians in general tend to be more health conscious. What's the worst thing they can do? Stuff their faces at the tofu bar? You have to take those things into account. Compare a group of vegetarians who eat a balanced diet to people who eat a similarly balanced diet, but incorporating moderate amounts of meat.

You're probably right. I've thought that myself. Either way, I at least know that there's nothing wrong with it and I've personally felt better after becoming vegetarian.

I had a bunch of sources in the vegetarianism thread I made but it's a big thread so they're hard to find. One of these days I'll debate it and I'll have all my sources compiled there.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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11/26/2010 11:38:45 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, I think it's valid. This is actually very close to the topic of my next debate.

If I had to make my own syllogism, it would look like this.

P1: It's wrong to unnecessarily inflict pain and suffering on any sentient being.
P2: Human meat consumption often involves unnecessarily inflicting pain and suffering on sentient beings.
C: Therefore, human meat consumption is often wrong.

I use the word often for three reasons.

1. There is nothing wrong with eating meat that has been grown in a lab insofar as it doesn't cause any animals to suffer.

2. There are some animals (e.g., clams) that don't really have a nervous system that allows them to feel very much pain, if they can seriously feel pain at all. Some cases are ambiguous, others are not.

3. I could imagine some scenario where consuming meat could be justified. However, since meat isn't a necessary part of a human diet, it is very often wrong to consume meat. On top of this, meat consumption is ecologically expensive. If all the land, money, and time people spent raising animals were put to other food sources, we could dramatically cut down world hunger and CO2 emissions, which contributes to climate change and human deaths.
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/26/2010 11:44:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 11:38:45 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, I think it's valid. This is actually very close to the topic of my next debate.

If I had to make my own syllogism, it would look like this.

P1: It's wrong to unnecessarily inflict pain and suffering on any sentient being.
P2: Human meat consumption often involves unnecessarily inflicting pain and suffering on sentient beings.
C: Therefore, human meat consumption is often wrong.

I use the word often for three reasons.

1. There is nothing wrong with eating meat that has been grown in a lab insofar as it doesn't cause any animals to suffer.

2. There are some animals (e.g., clams) that don't really have a nervous system that allows them to feel very much pain, if they can seriously feel pain at all. Some cases are ambiguous, others are not.

3. I could imagine some scenario where consuming meat could be justified. However, since meat isn't a necessary part of a human diet, it is very often wrong to consume meat. On top of this, meat consumption is ecologically expensive. If all the land, money, and time people spent raising animals were put to other food sources, we could dramatically cut down world hunger and CO2 emissions, which contributes to climate change and human deaths.

I have the same problem with your (1) as I did with the OP's.

How is it wrong to kill animals for the purpose of consuming their meat?
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Freeman
Posts: 1,239
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11/26/2010 11:51:14 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/26/2010 11:44:19 PM, annhasle wrote:
At 11/26/2010 11:38:45 PM, Freeman wrote:
At 11/26/2010 8:58:18 PM, popculturepooka wrote:
This is rather appropriate considering the food that is normally eaten around the holidays. I'm not a vegan or vegetarian but this argument seems to me to be pretty good at first glance:

(1) It is wrong to inflict suffering on animals and or kill them because it gives us pleasure.
(2) People eat animals because it gives them pleasure.
(3) Therefore, people ought not eat animals.

This kind argument is made by Gary Francione.

http://en.wikipedia.org...

It seems like the way to go would be challenge (1). Thoughts?

Yeah, I think it's valid. This is actually very close to the topic of my next debate.

If I had to make my own syllogism, it would look like this.

P1: It's wrong to unnecessarily inflict pain and suffering on any sentient being.
P2: Human meat consumption often involves unnecessarily inflicting pain and suffering on sentient beings.
C: Therefore, human meat consumption is often wrong.

I use the word often for three reasons.

1. There is nothing wrong with eating meat that has been grown in a lab insofar as it doesn't cause any animals to suffer.

2. There are some animals (e.g., clams) that don't really have a nervous system that allows them to feel very much pain, if they can seriously feel pain at all. Some cases are ambiguous, others are not.

3. I could imagine some scenario where consuming meat could be justified. However, since meat isn't a necessary part of a human diet, it is very often wrong to consume meat. On top of this, meat consumption is ecologically expensive. If all the land, money, and time people spent raising animals were put to other food sources, we could dramatically cut down world hunger and CO2 emissions, which contributes to climate change and human deaths.

I have the same problem with your (1) as I did with the OP's.

How is it wrong to kill animals for the purpose of consuming their meat?

Ok, let's find some common ground. Would you agree with the proposition that it's wrong to inflict pain on humans and to kill them for the purpose of eating them.

Would you eat a baby?
Chancellor of Propaganda and Foreign Relations in the Franklin administration.

"I intend to live forever. So far, so good." -- Steven Wright