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Is it really STEALING?

studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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11/27/2010 3:54:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I have been far too inactive in the forums lately, so I figured I may as well instigate a topic.

When I went to BJ's a couple of years ago (no sexual innuendo), I ordered two hot dogs. Before the dogs were ready, the cashier was distracted by something work-related for several minutes. When he finally gave me the dogs, he gave me three instead of two. I felt nothing of it, considering the fact that I had to wait and he gave it to me willingly. Why not take advantage of another person's mistake?

However, my mother scolded me for theft. I claimed absolute BS. She said the fact that I knew about the mistake without making it right was wrong.

Other events comparable to this generate the same concept, so I need not elucidate with another example.

Is it stealing? Wrong? Merely taking a gift from an unexpecting benefactor?

I personally go with the latter.
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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11/27/2010 4:03:27 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 3:54:19 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I have been far too inactive in the forums lately, so I figured I may as well instigate a topic.

Glad to see you back.

When I went to BJ's a couple of years ago (no sexual innuendo), I ordered two hot dogs. Before the dogs were ready, the cashier was distracted by something work-related for several minutes. When he finally gave me the dogs, he gave me three instead of two. I felt nothing of it, considering the fact that I had to wait and he gave it to me willingly. Why not take advantage of another person's mistake?

A place called "BJ'" which sells hot dogs. Oh come on, that's far too easy. But still funny. ^_^

However, my mother scolded me for theft. I claimed absolute BS. She said the fact that I knew about the mistake without making it right was wrong.

Why is it your responsibility to correct their mistake? If the man cannot count then that's his problem. I fail to see how this is 'wrong'.

Other events comparable to this generate the same concept, so I need not elucidate with another example.

Is it stealing? Wrong? Merely taking a gift from an unexpecting benefactor?

Stealing is to take the property of another without the owners consent. I do not think your scenario would fit under such a definition. And no, it's not wrong. It's actually quite lucky. :P

I personally go with the latter.

Good.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Reasoning
Posts: 4,456
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11/27/2010 4:07:00 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You're definitely going to hell.
"What we really ought to ask the liberal, before we even begin addressing his agenda, is this: In what kind of society would he be a conservative?" - Joseph Sobran
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/27/2010 4:18:19 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
Legally speaking it is not theft. Morally speaking no one was harmed.

It may be stealing in some sense, but not in one that has any satisfying meaning. For theft to mean something it must involve the concept that you have violated the legal or moral property rights of another person.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
ln074246
Posts: 19
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11/27/2010 4:46:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
I wouldn't call it clear cut stealing, but there is a faint whiff of it. The thing is, you are taking property, from the company, that you didn't pay for. Even if an employee of the company is "willingly" giving it to you, you know that they are making a mistake. At the end of the day, it really depends on how strict you are on the definition of "stealing" and how stringent you are to sticking to it.

I personally would've enjoyed every bite of that third hot dog.
mongeese
Posts: 5,387
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11/27/2010 5:27:17 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 4:18:19 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Legally speaking it is not theft. Morally speaking no one was harmed.

Actually, the cashier harmed himself by giving up a hotdog that was rightfully BJ's. That makes this situation like asking yourself how ethical it is to watch someone accidentally drop something and not pointing out their fault.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/27/2010 5:33:49 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
What if he accidentally put something somewhere, and you took it? Is it stealing? Yes. In this case, he accidentally gave it directly to you, and I would say that it is a form of stealing, yes.
Cerebral_Narcissist
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11/27/2010 6:04:35 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 5:27:17 PM, mongeese wrote:
At 11/27/2010 4:18:19 PM, Cerebral_Narcissist wrote:
Legally speaking it is not theft. Morally speaking no one was harmed.

Actually, the cashier harmed himself by giving up a hotdog that was rightfully BJ's. That makes this situation like asking yourself how ethical it is to watch someone accidentally drop something and not pointing out their fault.

There is nothing in the OP that suggests that the cashier was actually harmed. It is unrealistic to suppose that his supervisor, or line manager etc noticed the unaccounted loss of a single hotdog. The damage to the company was negligible. No one was harmed.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
Atheism
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11/27/2010 10:46:33 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 5:33:49 PM, Mirza wrote:
What if he accidentally put something somewhere, and you took it? Is it stealing? Yes. In this case, he accidentally gave it directly to you,
Gave it. Willingly. This is not the same as the other situation you described. He willingly gave the hot dog over. Whether he did so accidentally or not is irrelevant.
and I would say that it is a form of stealing, yes.
I wouldn't.
I miss the old members.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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11/28/2010 6:50:06 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 10:46:33 PM, Atheism wrote:
Gave it. Willingly. This is not the same as the other situation you described. He willingly gave the hot dog over. Whether he did so accidentally or not is irrelevant.
"Willingly" is an abstract of giving it intentionally, which was not the case, hence he did not give it willingly.

I wouldn't.
Yes I can see that.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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11/28/2010 6:59:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Technically it might be. Ever hear of accessory? It's when someone assists in a crime even if they're not directly responsible. In this case, you accepting property you know the employee didn't pay for (stole) means you're an accessory to the crime -- It was because of you that the property was ultimately eliminated. Still, legally speaking you obviously wouldn't get in trouble, and morally I'd reconcile that by telling myself something along the lines of the owner's profit not being moral ;) Or something...
President of DDO
studentathletechristian8
Posts: 5,810
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11/28/2010 7:06:36 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/28/2010 6:59:20 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Technically it might be. Ever hear of accessory? It's when someone assists in a crime even if they're not directly responsible. In this case, you accepting property you know the employee didn't pay for (stole) means you're an accessory to the crime -- It was because of you that the property was ultimately eliminated. Still, legally speaking you obviously wouldn't get in trouble, and morally I'd reconcile that by telling myself something along the lines of the owner's profit not being moral ;) Or something...

Lulz. How about the third hot dog was a gift, and since it represented a holy number, I didn't find it acceptable to deny ;)
Cerebral_Narcissist
Posts: 10,806
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11/28/2010 8:42:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/28/2010 6:59:20 AM, theLwerd wrote:
Technically it might be. Ever hear of accessory? It's when someone assists in a crime even if they're not directly responsible. In this case, you accepting property you know the employee didn't pay for (stole) means you're an accessory to the crime -- It was because of you that the property was ultimately eliminated. Still, legally speaking you obviously wouldn't get in trouble, and morally I'd reconcile that by telling myself something along the lines of the owner's profit not being moral ;) Or something...

The purchasing of the hotdogs is a contract between the consumer and the company as represented by the salesperson. If one asks for two hotdogs for $10 (or whatever) then gets three, it is not the consumers place to wonder if the clerk has the authority to do so. A better deal has been offered for no apparent reason, it is not unreasonable to take it.
I am voting for Innomen because of his intelligence, common sense, humility and the fact that Juggle appears to listen to him. Any other Presidential style would have a large sub-section of the site up in arms. If I was President I would destroy the site though elitism, others would let it run riot. Innomen represents a middle way that works, neither draconian nor anarchic and that is the only way things can work. Plus he does it all without ego trips.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/28/2010 11:47:08 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Everyone who is acting high and mighty - that's such bs.

If you pointed out the error to the restaurant, do you know what their health code requires them to do? Throw out the extra hot dog!

Also, restaurants charge you a ridiculous "corking fee" to allow you to drink your own wine at their restaurant. I believe this unjust fee entitles you to steal their silverware.
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
innomen
Posts: 10,052
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11/28/2010 2:30:50 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 3:54:19 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I have been far too inactive in the forums lately, so I figured I may as well instigate a topic.

When I went to BJ's a couple of years ago (no sexual innuendo), I ordered two hot dogs. Before the dogs were ready, the cashier was distracted by something work-related for several minutes. When he finally gave me the dogs, he gave me three instead of two. I felt nothing of it, considering the fact that I had to wait and he gave it to me willingly. Why not take advantage of another person's mistake?

However, my mother scolded me for theft. I claimed absolute BS. She said the fact that I knew about the mistake without making it right was wrong.

Other events comparable to this generate the same concept, so I need not elucidate with another example.

Is it stealing? Wrong? Merely taking a gift from an unexpected benefactor?

I personally go with the latter.

Cash register honesty - yeah, it's dishonest, but all things are relative and the technical fact of the dishonesty is diminished by the minuscule amount of damage done.

By the way, i don't believe there is such a word as 'unexpecting', so i took the liberty of correcting you.
clucas
Posts: 49
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11/28/2010 4:14:51 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
You are simply taking advantage of anothers mistake, I personally would not consider it stealing. Its a matter of personal opinion and choice of whether you wish to point out that they made a mistake.
bluesteel
Posts: 12,301
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11/29/2010 9:21:16 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/28/2010 4:14:51 PM, clucas wrote:
You are simply taking advantage of anothers mistake, I personally would not consider it stealing. Its a matter of personal opinion and choice of whether you wish to point out that they made a mistake.

What about a drunk passed out girl at a party. Can you just take advantage of her mistake?
You can't reason someone out of a position they didn't reason themselves into - Jonathan Swift (paraphrase)
innomen
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11/29/2010 10:33:34 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/29/2010 9:21:16 AM, bluesteel wrote:
At 11/28/2010 4:14:51 PM, clucas wrote:
You are simply taking advantage of anothers mistake, I personally would not consider it stealing. Its a matter of personal opinion and choice of whether you wish to point out that they made a mistake.

What about a drunk passed out girl at a party. Can you just take advantage of her mistake?

That's the thing, it would be wrong, but it wouldn't be stealing.
brian_eggleston
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11/29/2010 11:10:04 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
I think it's a bit harsh to call it stealing.

It's just like if a cashier gives you too much change. If you notice you could 'fess up or you could just pretend you didn't notice and walk away - though you might feel bad if you thought it might come out of their wages.
Visit the burglars' bulletin board: http://www.break-in-news.com...
gavin.ogden
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11/29/2010 11:13:46 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
Yes, this is definitely stealing. Stealing is taking something without the owner's permission. Well, the owner certainly did not give permission for the extra hot dog to be given, and probably had no idea that his employees were incompetent. The employee was the thief, and you benefited. The honest thing to do is just make mention of this to the clerk. You are then in the clear, and the employee would probably let you keep it anyhow.
gavin.ogden
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11/29/2010 11:16:01 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/29/2010 11:10:04 AM, brian_eggleston wrote:
I think it's a bit harsh to call it stealing.

It's just like if a cashier gives you too much change. If you notice you could 'fess up or you could just pretend you didn't notice and walk away - though you might feel bad if you thought it might come out of their wages.

Would you agree that if you feel guilty, or have to second guess your actions, maybe something is a bit off? I know if I feel guilty, I am probably wrong.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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11/29/2010 1:21:21 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 3:54:19 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I have been far too inactive in the forums lately, so I figured I may as well instigate a topic.

Firstly I must state that The BMA (Board of Member Approval) Thoroughly Disapproves of this member and all that he does.. and as a general rule it is the position of the BMA that all members ought to avoid engaging with said member except if they're on Official Trolling Duty.

That said... I believe my engaging with him in any manner qualifies as such, so I don't think myself too hypocritical that I myself am going to respond to his post.

- - -

Is it stealing? Wrong? Merely taking a gift from an unexpecting benefactor?

whether you want to call it "stealing" or not really doesn't matter.

you're taking advantage of someone's ignorance to relieve them of their property in a way that if they were fully aware of what was going on Wouldn't be consensual.

sure the person who handed it to you consented... but not Knowingly... it's sort of like knowingly selling a house that has a termite infestation to someone without telling them about it.

The fact that you don't feel bad about such a thing doesn't at all show it's not "stealing"...

what it shows is that you don't care about the owner being relieved of his property... and wanted another hot-dog... and probably knew there wasn't any good chance of being prosecuted for your taking it; as, if anything, you could easily claim ignorance yourself.

now... if instead of the place being Big Lots.. it was some mentally-slow poor shmuck running a hot dog stand on the corner... Most people would prolly say <strong>"oh, no.. I only paid for two.."... b/c they'd prolly feel bad about taking advantage of the guy..

whether it falls under the category of "Stealing" or not doesn't really matter. (except with the possibility of law enforcement making you care about the distinction through Other means...)

"right" and "wrong" don't hinge upon such defined standards... they hinge upon what you care about.
if you care you care... if you don't you don't.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
nonentity
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11/29/2010 8:38:07 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
The fact that you realized the mistake and did not correct him makes it stealing. You took something which was not rightfully yours.
nonentity
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11/29/2010 8:45:06 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/28/2010 11:47:08 AM, bluesteel wrote:
Everyone who is acting high and mighty - that's such bs.

Literally there have been times when people have given me cash in error---like they gave me $2500 and told me it was $2000. Hypothetically I could count it as $2000 and pocket the rest. But I just wouldn't. Or they give me too much change. I correct them and give it back.

If you pointed out the error to the restaurant, do you know what their health code requires them to do? Throw out the extra hot dog!

Or they could just let you keep it. In which case it wouldn't be stealing.

Also, restaurants charge you a ridiculous "corking fee" to allow you to drink your own wine at their restaurant. I believe this unjust fee entitles you to steal their silverware.

I actually laughed out loud :)
Veridas
Posts: 733
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11/30/2010 6:33:05 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 11/27/2010 3:54:19 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I have been far too inactive in the forums lately, so I figured I may as well instigate a topic.

When I went to BJ's a couple of years ago (no sexual innuendo), I ordered two hot dogs. Before the dogs were ready, the cashier was distracted by something work-related for several minutes. When he finally gave me the dogs, he gave me three instead of two. I felt nothing of it, considering the fact that I had to wait and he gave it to me willingly. Why not take advantage of another person's mistake?

However, my mother scolded me for theft. I claimed absolute BS. She said the fact that I knew about the mistake without making it right was wrong.

Other events comparable to this generate the same concept, so I need not elucidate with another example.

Is it stealing? Wrong? Merely taking a gift from an unexpecting benefactor?

I personally go with the latter.

it's theft.

That hotdog was not meant for you, and you did not pay for it, you took it without express permission and without giving anything in return.

You're a thief.

Cashiers do get distracted and they do make mistakes, but to err is human, and it takes a genuinely dishonest person to take advantage of that mistake.

You're going to hell, dude.
What fresh dickery is the internet up to today?
Ren
Posts: 7,102
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12/4/2010 3:19:09 PM
Posted: 6 years ago
It was not stealing. It was dishonest.

Likely, he would have let you keep it, even if you pointed it out.

Otherwise, he would have thrown it out.
mattrodstrom
Posts: 12,028
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12/5/2010 7:23:20 AM
Posted: 6 years ago
At 12/4/2010 2:20:27 PM, studentathletechristian8 wrote:
I appreciate the responses.

no prob.
"He who does not know how to put his will into things at least puts a meaning into them: that is, he believes there is a will in them already."

Metaphysics:
"The science.. which deals with the fundamental errors of mankind - but as if they were the fundamental truths."
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/7/2010 10:28:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Yes, it's stealing. Twice. The employee has stolen a hot dog from his employer, and you have stolen a hot dog from the employee. You acknowledged the mistake, so you are morally culpable if you have some moral inclination against stealing.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.