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What makes someone racist or bigoted?

lamerde
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5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Serious question.* It seems someone calling himself racist is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

It seems believing some racial groups are superior to other is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

So what is?

*Inb4 someone gets in their feelings, I'm not trying to call people out specifically, I'm just using these two posts as examples. People seem to be getting really defensive over being called racist, and people are claiming the word is being overused. But if someone calls himself racist, why can I then agree with him? What do people on DDO think racism means if these things don't meet the standard?
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:04:08 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
Serious question.* It seems someone calling himself racist is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

It seems believing some racial groups are superior to other is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

So what is?

*Inb4 someone gets in their feelings, I'm not trying to call people out specifically, I'm just using these two posts as examples. People seem to be getting really defensive over being called racist, and people are claiming the word is being overused. But if someone calls himself racist, why can I then agree with him? What do people on DDO think racism means if these things don't meet the standard?

Do you anticipate many sincere responses to your question?
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:07:21 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM, lamerde wrote:

Also, I should have posted this thread.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:07:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
Serious question.* It seems someone calling himself racist is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

It seems believing some racial groups are superior to other is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

So what is?

*Inb4 someone gets in their feelings, I'm not trying to call people out specifically, I'm just using these two posts as examples. People seem to be getting really defensive over being called racist, and people are claiming the word is being overused. But if someone calls himself racist, why can I then agree with him? What do people on DDO think racism means if these things don't meet the standard?

The bold should read: If someone calls himself racist, why can't I then agree with him?
Why I ignore YYW:
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Calling someone a bitch multiple times while claiming you're taking the high road is an art form, I suppose: http://www.debate.org...
lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:10:00 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:04:08 PM, Maikuru wrote:

Do you anticipate many sincere responses to your question?

Not really lol.

At 5/6/2016 8:07:21 PM, Maikuru wrote:

Also, I should have posted this thread.

Yah, my bad.
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:11:35 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:10:00 PM, lamerde wrote:

What did you think of my defense of Lost in lab?
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The_Great_Amalgam
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5/6/2016 8:12:12 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Personally I think the major key is prejudice and lack of tolerance. Now I know I don't know everything about the OP, not should I pretend to. When you combine both of these two things together, they usually come with a person who is usually one or both of the above.
lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:14:52 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:11:35 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:10:00 PM, lamerde wrote:

What did you think of my defense of Lost in lab?

I'd like to see the full discourse when we don't have to be mindful of spoilers. I thought it was an interesting argument but I'm not sure that I'm with you all the way. I would like to hear some examples, as well as rebuttals to counterexamples.
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:17:26 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:14:52 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:11:35 PM, Maikuru wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:10:00 PM, lamerde wrote:

What did you think of my defense of Lost in lab?

I'd like to see the full discourse when we don't have to be mindful of spoilers. I thought it was an interesting argument but I'm not sure that I'm with you all the way. I would like to hear some examples, as well as rebuttals to counterexamples.

I'd like to hear their counterexamples, also. From their description of the ending, it sounded as though they were under the belief that it was all a dream in the end or they were all dead. I get great satisfaction out of correcting Lost misconceptions.
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lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:20:25 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:12:12 PM, The_Great_Amalgam wrote:
Personally I think the major key is prejudice and lack of tolerance. Now I know I don't know everything about the OP, not should I pretend to. When you combine both of these two things together, they usually come with a person who is usually one or both of the above.

How do we evaluate what constitutes "prejudice" or "intolerance"?
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someloser
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5/6/2016 8:20:29 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Belief in superiority/inferiority, in some philosophical or "fundamental human worth" type of sense, based on race.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:21:27 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:17:26 PM, Maikuru wrote:

I'd like to hear their counterexamples, also. From their description of the ending, it sounded as though they were under the belief that it was all a dream in the end or they were all dead. I get great satisfaction out of correcting Lost misconceptions.

Yah, but they were all dead for an entire season.

Oh yah. Spoiler alert.
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lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:22:32 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:20:29 PM, someloser wrote:
Belief in superiority/inferiority, in some philosophical or "fundamental human worth" type of sense, based on race.

What about those who argue it's "just science"? "Is it racist if it's true?" etc.
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:22:58 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:21:27 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:17:26 PM, Maikuru wrote:

I'd like to hear their counterexamples, also. From their description of the ending, it sounded as though they were under the belief that it was all a dream in the end or they were all dead. I get great satisfaction out of correcting Lost misconceptions.

Yah, but they were all dead for an entire season.

Oh yah. Spoiler alert.

When you think about it, they technically were dead for the entire show, since the flash-sideways of that final season existed outside of time. It's just that they only showed us that "timeline" in the final season. All the events of the show still happened.
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lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:24:05 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:22:58 PM, Maikuru wrote:

When you think about it, they technically were dead for the entire show, since the flash-sideways of that final season existed outside of time. It's just that they only showed us that "timeline" in the final season. All the events of the show still happened.

So because it was a real timeline that occurred outside the show, you think Lost can be forgiven for the "they were dead all along" trope?
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Vox_Veritas
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5/6/2016 8:27:11 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
The way that I see it, there are two kinds of racism:
1. Racial Supremacism (I.e. "Japanese people are superior to Native Americans!")
2. Racial Hatred (I.e. "Black people need to be shot!")

The two can and will overlap at times.
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:27:44 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:24:05 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:22:58 PM, Maikuru wrote:

When you think about it, they technically were dead for the entire show, since the flash-sideways of that final season existed outside of time. It's just that they only showed us that "timeline" in the final season. All the events of the show still happened.

So because it was a real timeline that occurred outside the show, you think Lost can be forgiven for the "they were dead all along" trope?

Yes, for two reasons. *stretches*

First, the trope implies lazy writing or deus ex machina thinking. We know that isn't the case, as the story had been building to this reveal for seasons. Remember, the role of faith and the existence of the afterlife and ghosts were present from season 1. This isn't something they made up at the end.

Second, the timeline wasn't used to excuse or ignore any of the show's questions, as our lab mates were suggesting. The show answered all its major questions outside the timeline. If anything, the flash-sideways was used to enhance the storyline.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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someloser
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5/6/2016 8:31:42 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:22:32 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:20:29 PM, someloser wrote:
Belief in superiority/inferiority, in some philosophical or "fundamental human worth" type of sense, based on race.

What about those who argue it's "just science"? "Is it racist if it's true?" etc.
It's pretty hard to make a case for the philosophical value or worth of x based on the objective properties of x (see the is-ought problem). Don't see how "science" would help there, so they would be wrong.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Vox_Veritas
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5/6/2016 8:39:23 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
Race-Consciousness may technically be racist if one goes by the textbook definition, but it's not always a bad thing whereas the term "racist" always has a negative connotation, so the use of euphemisms should apply.

Every group is race-conscious to some extent. It is especially prevalent in groups which perceive themselves to be oppressed and/or under attack. Blacks are extremely race-conscious, as are poor whites.
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Maikuru
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5/6/2016 8:40:53 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:24:05 PM, lamerde wrote:
At 5/6/2016 8:22:58 PM, Maikuru wrote:

When you think about it, they technically were dead for the entire show, since the flash-sideways of that final season existed outside of time. It's just that they only showed us that "timeline" in the final season. All the events of the show still happened.

So because it was a real timeline that occurred outside the show, you think Lost can be forgiven for the "they were dead all along" trope?

The issue with people jumping to the "they were dead all along" issue is that a major conflict of the show was the concept of life and death. It's like the gun on the wall trope you always point out. If the whole show is about that gun, it's not an issue.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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lamerde
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5/6/2016 8:53:34 PM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:27:44 PM, Maikuru wrote:

Yes, for two reasons. *stretches*

First, the trope implies lazy writing or deus ex machina thinking. We know that isn't the case, as the story had been building to this reveal for seasons. Remember, the role of faith and the existence of the afterlife and ghosts were present from season 1. This isn't something they made up at the end.

Second, the timeline wasn't used to excuse or ignore any of the show's questions, as our lab mates were suggesting. The show answered all its major questions outside the timeline. If anything, the flash-sideways was used to enhance the storyline.

That's fair.

The issue with people jumping to the "they were dead all along" issue is that a major conflict of the show was the concept of life and death. It's like the gun on the wall trope you always point out. If the whole show is about that gun, it's not an issue.

I feel like the whole spirituality thing was a bit of a cop out as well. Like "faith vs science... oh sh!t we can't explain this so... faith."

But my biggest issue with Lost was the overall show just didn't make a whole lot of sense... like... what's up with Jacob? Why was he ruining lives like that? What was the whole purpose of the island, really? I'm confused about the electromagnetic mumbojumbo. Why did the Others act the way they did in season 1? Who the fvck was Libby? And mostly importantly... what was up with Walt?
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Maikuru
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5/7/2016 2:19:49 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 8:53:34 PM, lamerde wrote:

The issue with people jumping to the "they were dead all along" issue is that a major conflict of the show was the concept of life and death. It's like the gun on the wall trope you always point out. If the whole show is about that gun, it's not an issue.

I feel like the whole spirituality thing was a bit of a cop out as well. Like "faith vs science... oh sh!t we can't explain this so... faith."

But my biggest issue with Lost was the overall show just didn't make a whole lot of sense... like... what's up with Jacob? Why was he ruining lives like that? What was the whole purpose of the island, really? I'm confused about the electromagnetic mumbojumbo. Why did the Others act the way they did in season 1? Who the fvck was Libby? And mostly importantly... what was up with Walt?

Oh my gosh, so much to unpack here. Let me finish the manuscript and I'll be all over this, and you.
"You assume I wouldn't want to burn this whole place to the ground."
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stargate
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5/7/2016 2:26:49 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
I know this sense I have seen it for myself, it is what they see tht makes them become that. They will slowly but steadily for many have certian experiences that make them change into that. Some will change slightly or massively.
Blade-of-Truth
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5/7/2016 6:08:59 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
Serious question.* It seems someone calling himself racist is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

It seems believing some racial groups are superior to other is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

So what is?

*Inb4 someone gets in their feelings, I'm not trying to call people out specifically, I'm just using these two posts as examples. People seem to be getting really defensive over being called racist, and people are claiming the word is being overused. But if someone calls himself racist, why can I then agree with him? What do people on DDO think racism means if these things don't meet the standard?

Since you pointed to one of my posts in this, I believe that warrants a response from me.

If science, through the study of genetic influence on intelligence, shows that white children have an inherently higher IQ than black children - and I accept that as truth - I am not racist.

Google defines racism as: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

Racism deals with beliefs, not with fact.
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Emmarie
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5/7/2016 6:35:09 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:08:59 AM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 5/6/2016 7:54:48 PM, lamerde wrote:
Serious question.* It seems someone calling himself racist is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

It seems believing some racial groups are superior to other is not the standard.

http://www.debate.org...

So what is?

*Inb4 someone gets in their feelings, I'm not trying to call people out specifically, I'm just using these two posts as examples. People seem to be getting really defensive over being called racist, and people are claiming the word is being overused. But if someone calls himself racist, why can I then agree with him? What do people on DDO think racism means if these things don't meet the standard?

Since you pointed to one of my posts in this, I believe that warrants a response from me.

If science, through the study of genetic influence on intelligence, shows that white children have an inherently higher IQ than black children - and I accept that as truth - I am not racist.
White children for the most part are "drilled" by their parents in how to answer questions from authorities, some poor white children, and many black children aren't drilled to answer questions posed by so called authorities, they are permitted to learn what life presents them, so I refute the entire idea of IQ based on these premises.

Google defines racism as: the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
They aren't characteristics that are inherited through genetics, so much as cultural directives.

Racism deals with beliefs, not with fact.
If it is your belief that IQ tests accurately depict intelligence, then it is not a fact. What if for instance a black female came up with an IQ test, that was based on the cultural norms of many inner city communities? How well do you think white suburban youth would fare on those tests?
someloser
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5/7/2016 6:48:55 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:35:09 AM, Emmarie wrote:
White children for the most part are "drilled" by their parents in how to answer questions from authorities, some poor white children, and many black children aren't drilled to answer questions posed by so called authorities, they are permitted to learn what life presents them, so I refute the entire idea of IQ based on these premises.
No, because IQ does not work anything like you imply it does.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Emmarie
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5/7/2016 7:01:25 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 6:48:55 AM, someloser wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:35:09 AM, Emmarie wrote:
White children for the most part are "drilled" by their parents in how to answer questions from authorities, some poor white children, and many black children aren't drilled to answer questions posed by so called authorities, they are permitted to learn what life presents them, so I refute the entire idea of IQ based on these premises.
No, because IQ does not work anything like you imply it does.

How does it work then, specifically for children, since that's what BoT referenced?
someloser
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5/7/2016 7:10:06 AM
Posted: 7 months ago
At 5/7/2016 7:01:25 AM, Emmarie wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:48:55 AM, someloser wrote:
At 5/7/2016 6:35:09 AM, Emmarie wrote:
White children for the most part are "drilled" by their parents in how to answer questions from authorities, some poor white children, and many black children aren't drilled to answer questions posed by so called authorities, they are permitted to learn what life presents them, so I refute the entire idea of IQ based on these premises.
No, because IQ does not work anything like you imply it does.

How does it work then, specifically for children, since that's what BoT referenced?
It just measures how well you are at specific types of problem solving (particularly, identifying logical sequences or patterns). Heritability is lower with children, so environmental factors will have a larger effect on them (that will decrease later). And even as far as those go, "drilling" likely wouldn't have any effect.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw