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The Right of Suicide

M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/7/2010 9:35:50 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm not sure if this is in the correct forum, but I think it fits in societal aspects.

I recently had a friend who said, "If we don't choose to live, isn't it a right to be able to end living? To end our life?"

I believe suicide is immoral, because you are taking your life and life is a fundamental moral value. So to destroy this value is immoral, especially when it's your own.

But I was just interested in some input, whether suicide is right or wrong; and if my friend's claim is valid. Discussion? Assessment?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/7/2010 9:56:35 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
Rights are respected by society. No one has an inherent right to anything. You have no more right to kill yourself than society does to stop you, lock you in a psych ward, and rehabilitate you until you come out a little less suicidal.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/7/2010 10:07:51 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 9:56:35 PM, Kleptin wrote:
Rights are respected by society. No one has an inherent right to anything. You have no more right to kill yourself than society does to stop you, lock you in a psych ward, and rehabilitate you until you come out a little less suicidal.

@M.Torres
Sorry, you will have to get use to this. If you can't prove it then you aren't aloud to say it. It's a libertarian site, can't you tell. :)
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
M.Torres
Posts: 3,626
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12/7/2010 10:11:37 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm just interested in hearing multiple sides on an issue. So any comments are welcomed.

So, Kleptin, does that mean my friend is wrong? (He certainly may well be.) Why?
: At 11/28/2011 1:28:24 PM, BlackVoid wrote:
: M. Torres said it, so it must be right.

I'm an Apatheistic Ignostic. ... problem? ;D

I believe in the heart of the cards. .:DDO Duelist:.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/7/2010 10:17:57 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:11:37 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I'm just interested in hearing multiple sides on an issue. So any comments are welcomed.

So, Kleptin, does that mean my friend is wrong? (He certainly may well be.) Why?

I find all the little terminology to be disingenuous. Thinking is actually a very simple process. Complicating things with morality, values, etc. will get you nowhere, because no one has ever established with any consistency what morality and values are. You'll get into 100 other arguments over basic ideology before you get to the topic you want to discuss.

To give you my viewpoint, I don't believe in any objective morality or fundamental value. I believe in values that are so rooted into our culture that they SEEM to be fundamental. I believe that we should fight for these values. But I won't lie and say that it is a fundamental right, written in the stars or spoken by God.

Suicide should be prevented because it rarely does any good for society and often harms it. That's good enough for me. Same reason why we make people fasten seat belts and why we tax cigarettes.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
InsertNameHere
Posts: 15,699
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12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.
Kleptin
Posts: 5,095
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12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.
: At 5/2/2010 2:43:54 PM, innomen wrote:
It isn't about finding a theory, philosophy or doctrine and thinking it's the answer, but a practical application of one's experiences that is the answer.

: At 10/28/2010 2:40:07 PM, jharry wrote: I have already been given the greatest Gift that anyone could ever hope for [Life], I would consider myself selfish if I expected anything more.
FREEDO
Posts: 21,057
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12/7/2010 10:38:05 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

All anti-social behavior is a psychological problem. Prisons should be replaced with therapy.
GRAND POOBAH OF DDO

fnord
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/7/2010 10:39:47 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

What if it was considered a right? Reckon there might be any negative results?
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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12/7/2010 11:23:39 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 10:39:47 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

What if it was considered a right? Reckon there might be any negative results?
No. I don't think there would be a positive or negative trend in the number of suicide & legalization. The people who commit suicide are going to be dead, so they aren't likely to care about the law in the first place.
I miss the old members.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/7/2010 11:25:24 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 11:23:39 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:39:47 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

What if it was considered a right? Reckon there might be any negative results?
No. I don't think there would be a positive or negative trend in the number of suicide & legalization. The people who commit suicide are going to be dead, so they aren't likely to care about the law in the first place.

Well if it was a right then there would be no pressure to help.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
annhasle
Posts: 6,657
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12/7/2010 11:30:36 PM
Posted: 5 years ago
I'm a Suicide Prevention Educator and even though I spend most of my day counseling people to NOT commit suicide, I would never say it was immoral or that they don't have the "right" - even though "rights" are a completely man-made concept and should be of little importance in this debate.
I'm not back. This idiot just upset me which made me stop lurking.
Atheism
Posts: 2,033
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12/8/2010 12:10:04 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 11:25:24 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/7/2010 11:23:39 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:39:47 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

What if it was considered a right? Reckon there might be any negative results?
No. I don't think there would be a positive or negative trend in the number of suicide & legalization. The people who commit suicide are going to be dead, so they aren't likely to care about the law in the first place.

Well if it was a right then there would be no pressure to help.
I'd think it would be. Look at alcohol, smoking, etc. All things that are legal, and the emphasis on not using such drugs is incredibly apparent.
I miss the old members.
OrionsGambit
Posts: 258
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12/8/2010 2:01:03 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
If I am allowed to sale my body via labor due to self-ownership, why am I likewise not allowed to off myself? Am I not allowed to do what I wish with my body as long as I do not physically harm others?

The same goes for wearing a seatbelt. Who the heck thinks they can tell me and fine me on top of it for choosing not to wear a seatbelt? If it's my fate to fly through my car's windshield so be it. I could just as likely kill myself wearing the seatbelt due to the belt snapping a rib into my heart of lungs. Or the car busting into flames and me or somebody not being able to get me out in time before I am engulfed in an inferno because of the seatbelt.

Case in point, there is nothing wrong with offing yourself. There are many instances that I'd personally rather be off'd then have to live through (being a vegetable comes to mind). Somebody being a whiny-poo-face is technically not one of them, but if they have the proverbial balls, talk them out of it, but if they chose to go ahead with it, good for them.
Noblesse Oblige
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 2:53:05 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
We can debate that "There are good reasons to prevent a person from committing suicide" - Either here or formally, I do not care - as long as you are up for it.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/8/2010 2:54:23 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:53:05 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
We can debate that "There are good reasons to prevent a person from committing suicide" - Either here or formally, I do not care - as long as you are up for it.

It would have to be a couple weeks from now if it was formal.. This week is dead week, and next week is finals weeks.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 2:55:55 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:54:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:53:05 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
We can debate that "There are good reasons to prevent a person from committing suicide" - Either here or formally, I do not care - as long as you are up for it.

It would have to be a couple weeks from now if it was formal.. This week is dead week, and next week is finals weeks.
I understand. I will come back to you, I am eating sandwich right now.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/8/2010 2:57:24 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:55:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:54:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:53:05 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
We can debate that "There are good reasons to prevent a person from committing suicide" - Either here or formally, I do not care - as long as you are up for it.

It would have to be a couple weeks from now if it was formal.. This week is dead week, and next week is finals weeks.
I understand. I will come back to you, I am eating sandwich right now.

I wish I had a sandwich. But it's 5 AM.
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 3:02:42 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 2:57:24 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:55:55 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:54:23 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:53:05 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:50:55 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:49:56 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:44:35 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:43:39 AM, Mirza wrote:
At 12/8/2010 2:42:07 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
There's not a "right" to suicide, but I don't see any reason to prevent it.
You do not see a reason to prevent a person from committing suicide, or no reason not to have the right to suicide?

I see no reason to prevent a person from committing suicide.
Do you think that a person wishes to commit suicide because he is in a normal mental state?

I don't think it matters.
We can debate that "There are good reasons to prevent a person from committing suicide" - Either here or formally, I do not care - as long as you are up for it.

It would have to be a couple weeks from now if it was formal.. This week is dead week, and next week is finals weeks.
I understand. I will come back to you, I am eating sandwich right now.

I wish I had a sandwich. But it's 5 AM.
It's 12PM in my area. It is lunch time.
Cody_Franklin
Posts: 9,483
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12/8/2010 5:37:51 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 4:18:06 AM, Mirza wrote:
I am back. Cody, do you value a person's normal mental state over a person's abnormal mental state?

1. "Normal mental state" doesn't really mean much. Given the ridiculous variety of personalities and mental states, not to mention the commonality of at least one disorder, if only minor, in the mind of each individual, I'd say that valuing a "normal state" is the equivalent of trying to argue about what a true Scotsman would do.

2. Assuming, however, that a NMS did exist, I don't see any prima facie reason why I should value the normal over the abnormal. After all, nymphomania is obviously an abnormal mental state, but I feel like I would value that far more than I would value a woman with an ordinary or declining sex drive.

3. Even assuming that I categorically valued normal mental states over abnormal ones, it is a non sequitur to claim that I therefore ought to seek to institute a legal framework whereby everyone else is forced to live in accordance with my personal values by mere virtue of the fact that they are my personal values, and that others do not conform to them.
devinni01841
Posts: 1,405
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12/8/2010 7:16:15 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 9:35:50 PM, M.Torres wrote:
I believe suicide is immoral, because you are taking your life and life is a fundamental moral value. So to destroy this value is immoral, especially when it's your own.

I also have strong opinons about suicide, but I also wonder why the only ones who are punished by anti-suicide laws are the ones who fail.
i guess if you have a desire to off yourself, then you should be able to do so with out hindrance....
There is nothing more bad-@ss than being yourself.

I solemnly swear I am up to no good.

Member of the Texas Army National Guard since 20111212

An Armed society is a polite society.
jharry
Posts: 4,984
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12/8/2010 7:29:32 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/7/2010 11:23:39 PM, Atheism wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:39:47 PM, jharry wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:36:13 PM, Kleptin wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:32:11 PM, InsertNameHere wrote:
At 12/7/2010 10:12:03 PM, FREEDO wrote:
I support Glenn Beck's right to suicide.

lol. xD

We should be helping those who feel suicidal to prevent them from actually doing it. It can be a long and difficult process, but it would be worth it to save lives. Suicide doesn't solve any problems and just causes more pain for those affected, but it shouldn't be treated as a criminal offence. Instead, we need to help those people.

Agreed. Suicide is a psychological issue, not a criminal one.

What if it was considered a right? Reckon there might be any negative results?
No. I don't think there would be a positive or negative trend in the number of suicide & legalization. The people who commit suicide are going to be dead, so they aren't likely to care about the law in the first place.

To an extent I agree about public support and prevention, much like alcoholics. But is leaning more towards public services supported by tax payers, police and emergency services.

Let me give you an example.

My wife's half brother (different father from previous marriage) is schizophrenic. I can't count how many times he has threaten to kill himself. When he is on his meds he is basically a zombie and when not he has issues. Just six months ago he was hold up in his camper with a 12ga in his mouth. If suicide was a right then there would be no help for the guy at that moment. The police could do nothing, and the ambulance service would basically tell you to call the morgue. In this instance the police were there with trained counselors to talk him out and medical personal were at the ready to help him if it was needed. Neither would be available if suicide was a right.

This society is screwed up enough these days without adding one more "right" that can lead irrational people to hurt themselves and effect everyone around them. Young girls taking the "right" to their own bodies to the extreme of wanting to get pregnant at 13 and society footing the bill. These type of self "rights" tend to lead to negative consequences for individuals and society at large.
In nomine Patris, et Filii, et Spiritus Sancti. Amen
Mirza
Posts: 16,992
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12/8/2010 8:22:38 AM
Posted: 5 years ago
At 12/8/2010 5:37:51 AM, Cody_Franklin wrote:
1. "Normal mental state" doesn't really mean much. Given the ridiculous variety of personalities and mental states, not to mention the commonality of at least one disorder, if only minor, in the mind of each individual, I'd say that valuing a "normal state" is the equivalent of trying to argue about what a true Scotsman would do.
No, there are very specific ways of determining what a normal and abnormal mental state is. Surely not all mental states can be categorized, but most probably can.

2. Assuming, however, that a NMS did exist, I don't see any prima facie reason why I should value the normal over the abnormal. After all, nymphomania is obviously an abnormal mental state, but I feel like I would value that far more than I would value a woman with an ordinary or declining sex drive.
Unfortunately, you are not telling the truth here. You would not want a schizophrenic girlfriend (as far as I can tell) in preference to one who does not suffer from such a severe mental state, and you would not want to be in the same room with a psychopath in preference to one who has a normal mental state.

3. Even assuming that I categorically valued normal mental states over abnormal ones, it is a non sequitur to claim that I therefore ought to seek to institute a legal framework whereby everyone else is forced to live in accordance with my personal values by mere virtue of the fact that they are my personal values, and that others do not conform to them.
No, the point is that it is not about your personal values, but about those of other people. If a person has a normal mental state and tells everyone that he never wishes to kill himself, but after a period he enters a state of mental suffering due to e.g., debt, and then says that he wants to kill himself, then by preventing him from doing such a thing, we are choosing his values as the reason to prevent him from committing suicide. What an abnormal state does is to cover up these values so that he himself sort of forgets them, but they are still part of a "normal him."