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Egalitarianism vs Feminism

Hiu
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5/15/2016 8:43:59 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
I am not sure if this discussion was ever brought up here, but I thought it would be interesting to discuss this topic considering how many men that I know or know of are against feminism. For the record, let me say that the "anti-feminist" rhetoric from the men I discuss this issue with is not so much against feminism in regards to equality but in so much in regards to the contemporary extremist rhetoric by so-called feminists discounting issues men also deal with. This also brings us to the "No True Scotsman" fallacy many feminists have to answer to in regards to who is considered a true feminist and who isn't.

For the record let me say that I am against contemporary feminism in the sense of the "academic-Andrea-Dworkin-Catherine-Mackinnon" type where women are presumably absolved of any responsibility and are always presumed to be victims of "male escalation" due to the cyclical environment of patriarchy (allegedly). As one author puts it "The movement was given the name "feminism" because it focuses on the gender inequality issues that impact women. Just like any other civil rights category, feminism is a term used to show that one supports women"s equality and wants to address the serious amount of gender discrepancies they face daily. It does not take away from other civil rights matters."

See:https://www.progressivewomensleadership.com...

Feminism is not necessarily complete equality, rather, equality FOR women which is fine by me, however the kind of social media rhetoric and academic rhetoric that is normally espoused is basically that feminism combats white patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from. Although I am not in disagreement that systemic racism which is prompted by "white privilege" and a biased system that has been implemented by the dominant culture, I also believe "white feminism" tends to propagate its own distinct imperialism by telling others, such as persons of color e.g. Arab Muslim women who wear the hijab that their attire is oppressive which I find symptomatic to colonialist attitudes regarding foreign cultures.

The type of feminism that seems to be toxic is the type of feminism that does not do any self-reflection or critique, rather it appears to be absolute without fault, or guilt and will not presume that in certain areas women have the advantage. If we look at affirmative action for example, whites benefit more than minorities, and in particular white women benefit from affirmative action more than anyone (see:http://www.diversityinc.com...).

With that being said, this is why I believe egalitarianism is the best philosophy for society with respect to TRUE equality.

What is egalitarianism?

basically, egalitarianism is: "of, relating to, or believing in the principle that all people are equal and deserve equal rights and opportunities."

If we were to look at racism, how does feminism help me as a man who is also a person of color, deal with racism? It cannot because for two reasons, feminism relates to the equality for women and because it relates to women's rights, there is nothing about feminism that can assist me in overcoming racism. I believe in a philosophy that encompasses all societal issues without uplifting one over the other because all problems that afflict people whether it is of your religion, gender, sex, or sexual orientation, all problems are human problems and need to be addressed as such. Feminism is too specific for women and I as a man can only partially relate. I would rather believe in a philosophy that I can relate entirely.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I come from a society which, contrary to popular belief, is largely racially homogeneous, yet our feminists espouse the same ideals as those in the West - that is, to quote you, combatting the 'patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from'. My question to you is, in the case of my society, do you support feminism (since it's free from the racial undertones you mentioned)?

As an aside - I do not support the feminism in my society, nor do I support the growing MRA movement (well, it's growing in terms of the number of lip-service Internet commentators, but not gaining nearly as much traction as feminism, and has no official organisations). IMO, the problem with any group, in a sufficiently modernised society, that attempts to reach 'equality' is that what they reach isn't equality, it's artifice. There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things. It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses - so such fields should continue to be dominated by women while allowing qualified men, rare as they are, to enter such fields.

Gender equality is among the very few areas where I support negative liberty rather than positive liberty.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
tejretics
Posts: 6,080
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5/16/2016 12:01:05 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses.

Prove it -- and demonstrate the causal link between gender and being kindergarten teachers/nurses.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Fernyx
Posts: 306
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5/16/2016 2:57:37 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Sure feminism has radicals, but saying 'they are not real feminists' does not help. The problem is that it is much better to let a good movement turn bad and change your association than to revive a movement. I believe that egalitarianism still has no cogitation outside of equality. Feminism now has the loudest voices the mot radical. Generally they are meant to be good, but there is still a problem with its representation. Misused stats like saying that 1/5 women are raped or that the wage gap is for the same work are now what keeps a movement alive. When they can find nothing to fight for, they fight for things they make up, patriarchy, man spreading, victim blaming, etc. Campuses also teach the more radicalized form of feminism, this is why people are anti feminist. When people say they are anti feminist, they are not against women's rights, nor the beginning stages of feminism, but rather the flawed ideology that is being taught in campuses, and is widely represented in media.

TL;DR If a movement needs to focus on fake or petty things with more intensity that actual problems, it is time to change your association, nor revive the movement.
breaxxbaxx
Posts: 40
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5/17/2016 12:28:18 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
I think feminism has had mostly a positive impact. I think it:s important to note that feminism is not a monolith, and no one idea or person can represent the whole movement. It has certainly had a messy history concerning race, but issues of racism have become a growing conversation in third-wave feminism. In the past 10 years or so I would say feminism has become more diverse. I think the push to acknowledge the theory of intersectionality is largely to thank. Still far from perfect like anything in our society, but moving in the right direction.

Personally, I'm more attracted to the idea of calling myself an Intersectionalist before calling myself anything else. To me, intersectionality should be the foundation to breed a healthy social justice movement.
ColeTrain
Posts: 4,291
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5/17/2016 4:44:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 12:01:05 PM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses.

Prove it -- and demonstrate the causal link between gender and being kindergarten teachers/nurses.

Just curious, do you disagree with what Diq said?
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ColeTrain
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5/17/2016 4:46:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things.

I entirely agree with this, and most of the rest of your post as well. I think, though we are religiously juxtaposed, we have some similar philosophical views (laying with someone of the opposite sex, accepting differences of men and women without being sexist).
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
tejretics
Posts: 6,080
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5/17/2016 4:46:38 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 4:44:07 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
Just curious, do you disagree with what Diq said?

I disagree with that statement, yes.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
ColeTrain
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5/17/2016 4:47:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 4:46:38 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/17/2016 4:44:07 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
Just curious, do you disagree with what Diq said?

I disagree with that statement, yes.

That's what I thought. Thanks for clarifying, though. I might come back to the thread later, but I'm going to bed for the night. :P
"The right to 360 noscope noobs shall not be infringed!!!" -- tajshar2k
"So, to start off, I've never committed suicide." -- Vaarka
"I eat glue." -- brontoraptor
"I mean, at this rate, I'd argue for a ham sandwich presidency." -- ResponsiblyIrresponsible
"Overthrow Assad, heil jihad." -- 16kadams when trolling in hangout
"Hillary Clinton is not my favorite person ... and her campaign is as inspiring as a bowl of cottage cheese." -- YYW
someloser
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5/17/2016 9:54:21 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 4:46:38 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/17/2016 4:44:07 AM, ColeTrain wrote:
Just curious, do you disagree with what Diq said?

I disagree with that statement, yes.

Why?
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
tejretics
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5/17/2016 9:55:09 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 9:54:21 AM, someloser wrote:
Why?

I don't think gender neurology influences women to be better kindergarten teachers or nurses than men. There's no evidence for that.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
someloser
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5/17/2016 10:00:50 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 9:55:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/17/2016 9:54:21 AM, someloser wrote:
Why?

I don't think gender neurology influences women to be better kindergarten teachers or nurses than men. There's no evidence for that.

rates of testosterone production might play some role. not sure.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
tejretics
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5/17/2016 10:01:38 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 10:00:50 AM, someloser wrote:
rates of testosterone production might play some role. not sure.

I don't think so - I haven't come across anything indicative of that.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Hiu
Posts: 974
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5/18/2016 1:01:24 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I come from a society which, contrary to popular belief, is largely racially homogeneous, yet our feminists espouse the same ideals as those in the West - that is, to quote you, combatting the 'patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from'. My question to you is, in the case of my society, do you support feminism (since it's free from the racial undertones you mentioned)?

As an aside - I do not support the feminism in my society, nor do I support the growing MRA movement (well, it's growing in terms of the number of lip-service Internet commentators, but not gaining nearly as much traction as feminism, and has no official organisations). IMO, the problem with any group, in a sufficiently modernised society, that attempts to reach 'equality' is that what they reach isn't equality, it's artifice. There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things. It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses - so such fields should continue to be dominated by women while allowing qualified men, rare as they are, to enter such fields.

Gender equality is among the very few areas where I support negative liberty rather than positive liberty.

Well the only homogeneous society racially that I can think of is Japan in your case would I be correct? As far as feminism in your society it would depend on whether the progressive attitudes of women there stem from perceived repressive climates of that society. I believe when people look at the socially progressive attitudes of others they tend to self-reflect upon their own society and determine whether they are being repressed or not.

I would say in the case of Japan for example, I think some women are inspired by western influence in particular women who are seen as being "liberated" by certain social customs that perhaps Japanese women are restricted to. Do I agree with it? Yes and no. I believe every woman should have a voice and every woman should be respected equally. Just as I believe every woman should have the opportunity to do the same jobs as men. I don't agree with the western influence upon other old cultures because it is not the place of women in the west to tell others to change their attitudes.

I believe the introduction of a different perspective is necessary enough without all the rhetorical fminist fervor.
Hiu
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5/18/2016 1:03:23 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/16/2016 2:57:37 PM, Fernyx wrote:
Sure feminism has radicals, but saying 'they are not real feminists' does not help. The problem is that it is much better to let a good movement turn bad and change your association than to revive a movement. I believe that egalitarianism still has no cogitation outside of equality. Feminism now has the loudest voices the mot radical. Generally they are meant to be good, but there is still a problem with its representation. Misused stats like saying that 1/5 women are raped or that the wage gap is for the same work are now what keeps a movement alive. When they can find nothing to fight for, they fight for things they make up, patriarchy, man spreading, victim blaming, etc. Campuses also teach the more radicalized form of feminism, this is why people are anti feminist. When people say they are anti feminist, they are not against women's rights, nor the beginning stages of feminism, but rather the flawed ideology that is being taught in campuses, and is widely represented in media.

TL;DR If a movement needs to focus on fake or petty things with more intensity that actual problems, it is time to change your association, nor revive the movement.

I agree with the latter portion of your post. I personally believe in women's rights but I think the problem with feminism and some feminist is the No True Scotsman fallacy.....
Hiu
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5/18/2016 1:25:29 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 12:28:18 AM, breaxxbaxx wrote:
I think feminism has had mostly a positive impact. I think it:s important to note that feminism is not a monolith, and no one idea or person can represent the whole movement. It has certainly had a messy history concerning race, but issues of racism have become a growing conversation in third-wave feminism. In the past 10 years or so I would say feminism has become more diverse. I think the push to acknowledge the theory of intersectionality is largely to thank. Still far from perfect like anything in our society, but moving in the right direction.

Personally, I'm more attracted to the idea of calling myself an Intersectionalist before calling myself anything else. To me, intersectionality should be the foundation to breed a healthy social justice movement.

Then feminists must solve the No True Scotsman fallacy
Runn92
Posts: 324
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5/19/2016 9:26:23 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/17/2016 9:55:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/17/2016 9:54:21 AM, someloser wrote:
Why?

I don't think gender neurology influences women to be better kindergarten teachers or nurses than men. There's no evidence for that.

There's actually plenty of evidence for that. Also, I direct you to Occam..
tejretics
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5/20/2016 1:21:55 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/19/2016 9:26:23 PM, Runn92 wrote:
There's actually plenty of evidence for that.

Can you link me to any source that suggests this?
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/21/2016 3:48:46 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
Tej, sorry for replying late. Psychology and neuroscience aren't my fields of study and I don't have the time to ferret out the actual studies from Google Scholar at the time.

Mostly I based that evaluation on the studies that show men being more interested in objects and women being more in people. Being good at dealing with people is particularly important for these occupations. In addition, women are better at raising kids than men, and that, I think, gives them a huge advantage in teaching kindergartens (since they do not focus on teaching knowledge, but on helping the kids grow as people).
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/21/2016 3:49:56 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/19/2016 9:26:23 PM, Runn92 wrote:
At 5/17/2016 9:55:09 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/17/2016 9:54:21 AM, someloser wrote:
Why?

I don't think gender neurology influences women to be better kindergarten teachers or nurses than men. There's no evidence for that.


There's actually plenty of evidence for that. Also, I direct you to Occam..

I'm not sure Occam's razor works here. We're debating whether a fact is true, not how a fact can be explained...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/21/2016 3:59:27 PM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/18/2016 1:01:24 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I come from a society which, contrary to popular belief, is largely racially homogeneous, yet our feminists espouse the same ideals as those in the West - that is, to quote you, combatting the 'patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from'. My question to you is, in the case of my society, do you support feminism (since it's free from the racial undertones you mentioned)?

As an aside - I do not support the feminism in my society, nor do I support the growing MRA movement (well, it's growing in terms of the number of lip-service Internet commentators, but not gaining nearly as much traction as feminism, and has no official organisations). IMO, the problem with any group, in a sufficiently modernised society, that attempts to reach 'equality' is that what they reach isn't equality, it's artifice. There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things. It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses - so such fields should continue to be dominated by women while allowing qualified men, rare as they are, to enter such fields.

Gender equality is among the very few areas where I support negative liberty rather than positive liberty.

Well the only homogeneous society racially that I can think of is Japan in your case would I be correct?
Nope... (I did say 'contrary to popular belief', and I don't think the conventional wisdom is that Japan is racially heterogeneous, haha...)
As far as feminism in your society it would depend on whether the progressive attitudes of women there stem from perceived repressive climates of that society. I believe when people look at the socially progressive attitudes of others they tend to self-reflect upon their own society and determine whether they are being repressed or not.
Are you saying that, if people are feminists because they're feeling repressed, then feminism is good/useful? (That's what I understood from your paragraph, but I'm not completely sure.) I'm no sociologist, nor have I looked deeply into the issue, so I don't think I can reach a reasonable conclusion as to the source of feminist thought in my society.

I would say in the case of Japan for example, I think some women are inspired by western influence in particular women who are seen as being "liberated" by certain social customs that perhaps Japanese women are restricted to. Do I agree with it? Yes and no. I believe every woman should have a voice and every woman should be respected equally. Just as I believe every woman should have the opportunity to do the same jobs as men. I don't agree with the western influence upon other old cultures because it is not the place of women in the west to tell others to change their attitudes.
I'm not sure influencing Japanese women to rethink their position in society would amount to the west telling others to change their attitudes... The agent is not Western people, but Japanese women...
I believe the introduction of a different perspective is necessary enough without all the rhetorical fminist fervor.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Hiu
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5/22/2016 12:22:07 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/21/2016 3:59:27 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:01:24 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I come from a society which, contrary to popular belief, is largely racially homogeneous, yet our feminists espouse the same ideals as those in the West - that is, to quote you, combatting the 'patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from'. My question to you is, in the case of my society, do you support feminism (since it's free from the racial undertones you mentioned)?

As an aside - I do not support the feminism in my society, nor do I support the growing MRA movement (well, it's growing in terms of the number of lip-service Internet commentators, but not gaining nearly as much traction as feminism, and has no official organisations). IMO, the problem with any group, in a sufficiently modernised society, that attempts to reach 'equality' is that what they reach isn't equality, it's artifice. There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things. It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses - so such fields should continue to be dominated by women while allowing qualified men, rare as they are, to enter such fields.

Gender equality is among the very few areas where I support negative liberty rather than positive liberty.

Well the only homogeneous society racially that I can think of is Japan in your case would I be correct?
Nope... (I did say 'contrary to popular belief', and I don't think the conventional wisdom is that Japan is racially heterogeneous, haha...)
As far as feminism in your society it would depend on whether the progressive attitudes of women there stem from perceived repressive climates of that society. I believe when people look at the socially progressive attitudes of others they tend to self-reflect upon their own society and determine whether they are being repressed or not.
Are you saying that, if people are feminists because they're feeling repressed, then feminism is good/useful? (That's what I understood from your paragraph, but I'm not completely sure.) I'm no sociologist, nor have I looked deeply into the issue, so I don't think I can reach a reasonable conclusion as to the source of feminist thought in my society.

I would say in the case of Japan for example, I think some women are inspired by western influence in particular women who are seen as being "liberated" by certain social customs that perhaps Japanese women are restricted to. Do I agree with it? Yes and no. I believe every woman should have a voice and every woman should be respected equally. Just as I believe every woman should have the opportunity to do the same jobs as men. I don't agree with the western influence upon other old cultures because it is not the place of women in the west to tell others to change their attitudes.
I'm not sure influencing Japanese women to rethink their position in society would amount to the west telling others to change their attitudes... The agent is not Western people, but Japanese women...
I believe the introduction of a different perspective is necessary enough without all the rhetorical fminist fervor.

Well I'm not sure about popular belief hence the suggestive question I asked whether if I was right regarding Japan....It would help if you would've disclosed this information.

You said: "Are you saying that, if people are feminists because they're feeling repressed, then feminism is good/useful? (That's what I understood from your paragraph, but I'm not completely sure.) I'm no sociologist, nor have I looked deeply into the issue, so I don't think I can reach a reasonable conclusion as to the source of feminist thought in my society."

Basically I was saying women feel repressed, as in they are restricted to the things they see men do socially and politically that they feel they have a right to do. Women see western women in various revealing clothing while other women are restricted to clothing in accordance of tradition. Basically, the rise of feminism comes out of the social and political inequalities women face in their respective countries. Voting, driving, work pay all the things that men get and enjoy women do not enjoy. That is what I'm referring to to ultimately.
someloser
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5/22/2016 1:03:13 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/15/2016 8:43:59 PM, Hiu wrote:
there is nothing about feminism that can assist me in overcoming racism.
that's a feature, not a bug.

I believe in a philosophy that encompasses all societal issues without uplifting one over the other
and it would be called "unfocused". or, synonymously, " Occupy Wall Street"
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
bballcrook21
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5/22/2016 4:50:49 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
Both egalitarianism and feminism are equally atrocious authoritarian creatures. The pretense that "egalitarianism" is used in is not truly equality, being equal natural rights and protections, but equity. Feminism, on the other hand, is far worse. It's a beast that has embedded itself in women and men as well, making them both very neurally diminutive worthless members of civilization.
If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand. - Friedman

Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself. -Friedman

Nothing is so permanent as a temporary government program. - Friedman

Society will never be free until the last Democrat is strangled with the entrails of the last Communist.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/22/2016 6:51:10 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 12:22:07 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 5/21/2016 3:59:27 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 5/18/2016 1:01:24 AM, Hiu wrote:
At 5/16/2016 5:57:42 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
I come from a society which, contrary to popular belief, is largely racially homogeneous, yet our feminists espouse the same ideals as those in the West - that is, to quote you, combatting the 'patriarchy dominance that both men and women suffer from'. My question to you is, in the case of my society, do you support feminism (since it's free from the racial undertones you mentioned)?

As an aside - I do not support the feminism in my society, nor do I support the growing MRA movement (well, it's growing in terms of the number of lip-service Internet commentators, but not gaining nearly as much traction as feminism, and has no official organisations). IMO, the problem with any group, in a sufficiently modernised society, that attempts to reach 'equality' is that what they reach isn't equality, it's artifice. There are genetic, biological differences between men and women that makes each gender statistically more capable at certain things. It's clear that the majority of men would suck at being kindergarten teachers or nurses - so such fields should continue to be dominated by women while allowing qualified men, rare as they are, to enter such fields.

Gender equality is among the very few areas where I support negative liberty rather than positive liberty.

Well the only homogeneous society racially that I can think of is Japan in your case would I be correct?
Nope... (I did say 'contrary to popular belief', and I don't think the conventional wisdom is that Japan is racially heterogeneous, haha...)
As far as feminism in your society it would depend on whether the progressive attitudes of women there stem from perceived repressive climates of that society. I believe when people look at the socially progressive attitudes of others they tend to self-reflect upon their own society and determine whether they are being repressed or not.
Are you saying that, if people are feminists because they're feeling repressed, then feminism is good/useful? (That's what I understood from your paragraph, but I'm not completely sure.) I'm no sociologist, nor have I looked deeply into the issue, so I don't think I can reach a reasonable conclusion as to the source of feminist thought in my society.

I would say in the case of Japan for example, I think some women are inspired by western influence in particular women who are seen as being "liberated" by certain social customs that perhaps Japanese women are restricted to. Do I agree with it? Yes and no. I believe every woman should have a voice and every woman should be respected equally. Just as I believe every woman should have the opportunity to do the same jobs as men. I don't agree with the western influence upon other old cultures because it is not the place of women in the west to tell others to change their attitudes.
I'm not sure influencing Japanese women to rethink their position in society would amount to the west telling others to change their attitudes... The agent is not Western people, but Japanese women...
I believe the introduction of a different perspective is necessary enough without all the rhetorical fminist fervor.

Well I'm not sure about popular belief hence the suggestive question I asked whether if I was right regarding Japan....It would help if you would've disclosed this information.
Hong Kong.
You said: "Are you saying that, if people are feminists because they're feeling repressed, then feminism is good/useful? (That's what I understood from your paragraph, but I'm not completely sure.) I'm no sociologist, nor have I looked deeply into the issue, so I don't think I can reach a reasonable conclusion as to the source of feminist thought in my society."

Basically I was saying women feel repressed, as in they are restricted to the things they see men do socially and politically that they feel they have a right to do. Women see western women in various revealing clothing while other women are restricted to clothing in accordance of tradition. Basically, the rise of feminism comes out of the social and political inequalities women face in their respective countries. Voting, driving, work pay all the things that men get and enjoy women do not enjoy. That is what I'm referring to to ultimately.
We're not really unequal in that sense. Women can drive and voting rights are biased towards people of high social status, rather than gender. The wage gap 'problem' is probably not that different from the West's; we have ordinances to deal with actual sexism. Yeah our feminism is similar to the West's.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
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tejretics
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5/23/2016 3:36:00 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/21/2016 3:48:46 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
Mostly I based that evaluation on the studies that show men being more interested in objects and women being more in people. Being good at dealing with people is particularly important for these occupations. In addition, women are better at raising kids than men, and that, I think, gives them a huge advantage in teaching kindergartens (since they do not focus on teaching knowledge, but on helping the kids grow as people).

The interest expressed is more a result of societal factors than inherent ones. Once we're rid of those societal factors, there probably won't be a significant difference.

There aren't multiple studies re: the kindergarten teacher issue, but there's no significant difference in performance between male nurses and female nurses. I'm particularly intrigued by your assertion with regard to nurses.

In fact, a study by Chambers, et al. found no difference in hospital-related interpersonal skills based on gender. [http://link.springer.com...]
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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5/23/2016 3:57:56 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:36:00 AM, tejretics wrote:
In fact, a study by Chambers, et al. found no difference in hospital-related interpersonal skills based on gender. [http://link.springer.com...]

That's probably because only qualified men enter the industry to be studied. If we were to force a greater proportion of men to enter the industry so it's 50-50 (by some form of affirmative action), the results could well be different.

This actually supports my point that we should maintain the status quo (allow men to enter the industry but not do anything about the dominance of women in the field).

I'll respond to the other points later...
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
tejretics
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5/23/2016 4:14:34 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:57:56 AM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
At 5/23/2016 3:36:00 AM, tejretics wrote:
In fact, a study by Chambers, et al. found no difference in hospital-related interpersonal skills based on gender. [http://link.springer.com...]

That's probably because only qualified men enter the industry to be studied. If we were to force a greater proportion of men to enter the industry so it's 50-50 (by some form of affirmative action), the results could well be different.

The burden to prove that men don't work well with people due to neurology is yours. You haven't fulfilled it.

This actually supports my point that we should maintain the status quo (allow men to enter the industry but not do anything about the dominance of women in the field).

I agree with that.
"Where justice is denied, where poverty is enforced, where ignorance prevails, and where any one class is made to feel that society is an organized conspiracy to oppress, rob and degrade them, neither persons nor property will be safe." - Frederick Douglass
someloser
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5/23/2016 5:36:47 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/23/2016 3:36:00 AM, tejretics wrote:
At 5/21/2016 3:48:46 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
Mostly I based that evaluation on the studies that show men being more interested in objects and women being more in people. Being good at dealing with people is particularly important for these occupations. In addition, women are better at raising kids than men, and that, I think, gives them a huge advantage in teaching kindergartens (since they do not focus on teaching knowledge, but on helping the kids grow as people).

The interest expressed is more a result of societal factors than inherent ones. Once we're rid of those societal factors, there probably won't be a significant difference.
yet... the more "egalitarian" and sexually progressive societies are... the larger many disparities grow. http://eng.kifinfo.no...

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"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

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Chloe8
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5/28/2016 7:16:33 AM
Posted: 6 months ago
At 5/22/2016 4:50:49 AM, bballcrook21 wrote:
Both egalitarianism and feminism are equally atrocious authoritarian creatures. The pretense that "egalitarianism" is used in is not truly equality, being equal natural rights and protections, but equity. Feminism, on the other hand, is far worse. It's a beast that has embedded itself in women and men as well, making them both very neurally diminutive worthless members of civilization.

What precisely about feminism makes you oppose it?

Do you believe women are inferior to men and should merely accept the disadvantages they face in life?