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The 'Degeneracy' Narrative of the Alt-Right

Skepsikyma
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6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Those on the 'new right' are pushing this more and more, and it is just as absurd as feminist narratives of an overarching patriarchy or rape culture. Things which are typically deemed 'degenerate' are homosexuality, overtly sexualized, promiscuous, and unconstrained women (the typical Circean 'witch' archetype of classical literature), androgyny, and stark deviations from religious or ideological orthodoxy. A lot of this is due to the influence of Hoppe, a man for whom I harbor mild distaste, mostly for his views that theories about patterns in human society cannot be tested by comparing them to the historical record. And I can see why: the 'degeneracy' narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So here is the theory in the nutshell: that otherwise healthy societies fall from grace and into ruin because of the spread of these degenerate characteristics, which undermine the fabric of society in some way, and then cause that society's failure. This is based, as far as I can see, by little more than correlation. Societies in a state of collapse tend to display a certain amount of decadence, therefore the decadence must cause the collapse.

This has several problems. First of all, is the decadence the cause or the symptom? I'm inclined to think that the latter is the case, as there are several cases where decadence arises and vanishes, seeming to follow other political trends which actually do damage political and social institutions. Examples would be the reigns of Nero, Caligula, and Elagabalus, during which corruption reigns, degeneracy follows, and then swiftly vanishes once a more stable ruler seizes power. To me, it seems much more likely that a bad leader in an autocratic society leads to instability, which leads to decadence and 'degeneracy', than that all which is required to damage those institutions is some sort of mysteriously caustic degeneracy. Juvenal, in his satires, laments the political state of the Empire and the political detachment of the citizens as leading to the decay in statecraft. His treatise was written during the reign of the 'five good emperors', and shortly following his death Commodus rose to power, said to have turned Rome from 'a kingdom of gold to one of iron and rust'. Famed for his largesse and grand public spectacles, Commodus bought the loyalty of the public. Later attempts at corruption reform ended in the emperor's assassination, and the buying of the throne through the guard by a well-connected nobleman. This resulted in a civil war, and the descent into decadence and degeneracy under the late Severan dynasty. So clearly, in this case, we can observe a case of the degradation of civic responsibility, followed by the collapse of political and social institutions, and ending in the rank cultural collapse during Elgabalus's rule, during which the child Emperor prostituted himself in the imperial palace, married a Vestal Virgin, and attempted to change the religion of Rome to a Syrian cult centered around rock-worship.

All throughout history, conventions shift. During the height of the European golden ages, we have evocative, erotic art which lionizes the debauched, powerful women of ancient lore (Circe, Tomyris, Medea, Semiramis, Salome). The restriction of homosexuality was also not as staunch under different pagan regimes as it was under Abrahamic ones. So the idea that there is a hard list of 'degenerate' characteristics which need to be stamped out in order to preserve society is also an unsupported one.

So what is the degeneracy phenomenon which we can observe at the twilight of many great civilizations? I would compare it to an opportunistic infection. Whatever the social conventions were, they predictably fall apart when the social institutions which supported them collapse due to the erosive pressure of political imbalance. These institutions are meant to limit and moderate society, to conventionalize and order human behavior in a civilized way. When they collapse, it as if a body's immune system has collapsed, and all of the conditions which it had previously suppressed will come flooding into the void. In this situation attempting to save a civilization by stamping out 'degeneracy' would be analogous to attempting to save an AIDS victim by constantly fighting opportunistic infections: it's a losing cause. To save a civilization, a new social orthodoxy must be constructed, or the old one must be repaired. Once that happens, a new regime of behavioral conformance can be introduced, and it may not be the same as the old order.

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
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6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Greyparrot
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6/25/2016 5:36:41 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I prefer Buddhism over Islamism
Blade-of-Truth
Posts: 5,036
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6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems. Neo-Christianity and Marxism... maybe. I don't think either are an end-all either though. The underlined portion would be ideal, and I do get the sense that we are slowly moving towards that.

The first step has already happened, with our current generation starting to fall out of line with most religions. From 1990 to 2000, the combined membership of all Protestant denominations in the USA declined by almost 5 million members (9.5 percent), while the US population increased by 24 million (11 percent), and that's just stats for the Protestant church, this drop is happening for nearly every religious institution in America. (Too lazy to pull up data for each major religion, but the validity of my claim can be proven by a simple google search)

As long as morals can develop and persist without the dependence or necessity for church or organized religion we'll move closer to a Nationalistic Humanistic movement. I suspect this will be even more of a reality by the time our children are our age.
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1harderthanyouthink
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6/26/2016 1:01:33 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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6/26/2016 1:36:33 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 5:36:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I prefer Buddhism over Islamism

Buddhism is an incredibly weak overall social regime and wouldn't last long.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

Neo-Christianity and Marxism... maybe. I don't think either are an end-all either though. The underlined portion would be ideal, and I do get the sense that we are slowly moving towards that.

Yeah, most of Western society will fragment into several of these groups and they'll duke it out, similar to how things unfolded in the Patristic period.

The first step has already happened, with our current generation starting to fall out of line with most religions. From 1990 to 2000, the combined membership of all Protestant denominations in the USA declined by almost 5 million members (9.5 percent), while the US population increased by 24 million (11 percent), and that's just stats for the Protestant church, this drop is happening for nearly every religious institution in America. (Too lazy to pull up data for each major religion, but the validity of my claim can be proven by a simple google search)

This was inevitable, largely due to the Protestant Reformation itself. Christianity never had the built-in mechanisms to manage heterodoxy which Islam did, so the cracks in its facade never really healed, they just widened and propagated until the religion became an incomprehensible mosaic of beliefs consumed by internecine conflict, without a clear and distinct vision of how society ought to be ordered. The Germanic and Anglo-Saxon Protestant worldviews were the wellspring which many of the pathologies of modern society sprung from.

As long as morals can develop and persist without the dependence or necessity for church or organized religion we'll move closer to a Nationalistic Humanistic movement. I suspect this will be even more of a reality by the time our children are our age.

I think that any cohesive, prescriptive ethical code will eventually take on the trappings of religion. Look at traditional Chinese philosophy for a good example. Humans are inclined to seek after patterns and rituals, and we recognize our own mythical archetypes in the world around us.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
PetersSmith
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6/26/2016 1:52:32 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Can you briefly explain what the "alt-right" is? All these modern ideology terms can be quite mind-boggling when you're uninformed.
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Skepsikyma
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6/26/2016 1:55:58 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:52:32 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Can you briefly explain what the "alt-right" is? All these modern ideology terms can be quite mind-boggling when you're uninformed.

It's a loose coalition of new forces on the American right, including everything from disillusioned Hoppesian libertarians to outright Nazis.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
PetersSmith
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6/26/2016 1:57:39 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:55:58 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:52:32 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Can you briefly explain what the "alt-right" is? All these modern ideology terms can be quite mind-boggling when you're uninformed.

It's a loose coalition of new forces on the American right, including everything from disillusioned Hoppesian libertarians to outright Nazis.

Can you briefly explain what the "new American right" is and "Hoppesian libertarians"?
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Greyparrot
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6/26/2016 1:57:59 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:36:33 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:36:41 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I prefer Buddhism over Islamism

Buddhism is an incredibly weak overall social regime and wouldn't last long.

rats.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,289
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6/26/2016 2:02:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:57:39 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:55:58 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:52:32 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Can you briefly explain what the "alt-right" is? All these modern ideology terms can be quite mind-boggling when you're uninformed.

It's a loose coalition of new forces on the American right, including everything from disillusioned Hoppesian libertarians to outright Nazis.

Can you briefly explain what the "new American right" is and "Hoppesian libertarians"?

Hoppe was a controversial libertarian thinker who thought that members of a community who jeopardized that community's dedication to its founding ideals needed to be forcibly removed. The new American right is actually in flux right now. It's very interesting to observe because it hasn't really taken any particular form yet.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
PetersSmith
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6/26/2016 2:05:48 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 2:02:54 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:57:39 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:55:58 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:52:32 AM, PetersSmith wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Can you briefly explain what the "alt-right" is? All these modern ideology terms can be quite mind-boggling when you're uninformed.

It's a loose coalition of new forces on the American right, including everything from disillusioned Hoppesian libertarians to outright Nazis.

Can you briefly explain what the "new American right" is and "Hoppesian libertarians"?

Hoppe was a controversial libertarian thinker who thought that members of a community who jeopardized that community's dedication to its founding ideals needed to be forcibly removed. The new American right is actually in flux right now. It's very interesting to observe because it hasn't really taken any particular form yet.

Oh, okay. Thank you.
Empress of DDO (also Poll and Forum "Maintenance" Moderator)

"The two most important days in your life is the day you were born, and the day you find out why."
~Mark Twain

"Wow"
-Doge

"Don't believe everything you read on the internet just because there's a picture with a quote next to it."
~Abraham Lincoln

Guide to the Polls Section: http://www.debate.org...
Blade-of-Truth
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6/26/2016 4:00:59 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

That's an interesting thought. In terms of culture, our society is at the stage of a teenager I think, we have an identify but haven't fully developed it yet. This is mostly attributed to the fact that we are a melting pot nation. With so many unique smaller cultures that come with every wave of immigration we've never really been able to form an all-encompassing culture that is unique to "America". We just simply can't point to American culture in the same way that we could towards Asian culture or Egyptian culture for instance. This is also likely attributed to our age as a nation as well. So why is culture important to discuss here?

I bring up culture only because in regard to religion, many societies have both tie into one another. In India for instance, the Hindu religion is closely connected to their culture which can be seen in many facets of life over there. For America it was Judeo-Christian religion which came with it's own culture, sure, but with the freedom to pursue religion we, again, saw many different religions grow here which has within them their own cultural traditions.

All of this culminates in my own theory that, if anything, new age "spiritualism" and atheistic systems will be the likely result. Both of which lack real religious roots (spiritualism is such a broad thing these days). If they do pick up Islam, it will most certainly lead to a religious war here in America, there are just too many fundamental Christians still left and the conflicting views would eventually lead to a boiling point.

Neo-Christianity and Marxism... maybe. I don't think either are an end-all either though. The underlined portion would be ideal, and I do get the sense that we are slowly moving towards that.

Yeah, most of Western society will fragment into several of these groups and they'll duke it out, similar to how things unfolded in the Patristic period.

I agree.

The first step has already happened, with our current generation starting to fall out of line with most religions. From 1990 to 2000, the combined membership of all Protestant denominations in the USA declined by almost 5 million members (9.5 percent), while the US population increased by 24 million (11 percent), and that's just stats for the Protestant church, this drop is happening for nearly every religious institution in America. (Too lazy to pull up data for each major religion, but the validity of my claim can be proven by a simple google search)

This was inevitable, largely due to the Protestant Reformation itself. Christianity never had the built-in mechanisms to manage heterodoxy which Islam did, so the cracks in its facade never really healed, they just widened and propagated until the religion became an incomprehensible mosaic of beliefs consumed by internecine conflict, without a clear and distinct vision of how society ought to be ordered. The Germanic and Anglo-Saxon Protestant worldviews were the wellspring which many of the pathologies of modern society sprung from.

As long as morals can develop and persist without the dependence or necessity for church or organized religion we'll move closer to a Nationalistic Humanistic movement. I suspect this will be even more of a reality by the time our children are our age.

I think that any cohesive, prescriptive ethical code will eventually take on the trappings of religion. Look at traditional Chinese philosophy for a good example. Humans are inclined to seek after patterns and rituals, and we recognize our own mythical archetypes in the world around us.

You're right. We are, by nature, a herd mentality creature. If only it wasn't so... such forces of control ought to be checked every few generations.
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UtherPenguin
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6/26/2016 6:50:42 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

"I believe that if a man like him (Muhammad) were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world, he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring it the much needed peace and happiness: I have prophesied about the faith of Muhammad that it would be acceptable to the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today."

-George Bernard Shaw.

aaaand I'm on the NSA watchlist.
"Praise Allah."
~YYW
Objectivity
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6/26/2016 7:21:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
Since forces on the alt right have anointed themselves as demolishers of restrictive, facile narratives, I feel obligated to criticize a bit of rank hypocrisy which I call the 'degeneracy narrative'.

Those on the 'new right' are pushing this more and more, and it is just as absurd as feminist narratives of an overarching patriarchy or rape culture. Things which are typically deemed 'degenerate' are homosexuality, overtly sexualized, promiscuous, and unconstrained women (the typical Circean 'witch' archetype of classical literature), androgyny, and stark deviations from religious or ideological orthodoxy. A lot of this is due to the influence of Hoppe, a man for whom I harbor mild distaste, mostly for his views that theories about patterns in human society cannot be tested by comparing them to the historical record. And I can see why: the 'degeneracy' narrative doesn't stand up to scrutiny.

So here is the theory in the nutshell: that otherwise healthy societies fall from grace and into ruin because of the spread of these degenerate characteristics, which undermine the fabric of society in some way, and then cause that society's failure. This is based, as far as I can see, by little more than correlation. Societies in a state of collapse tend to display a certain amount of decadence, therefore the decadence must cause the collapse.

This has several problems. First of all, is the decadence the cause or the symptom? I'm inclined to think that the latter is the case, as there are several cases where decadence arises and vanishes, seeming to follow other political trends which actually do damage political and social institutions. Examples would be the reigns of Nero, Caligula, and Elagabalus, during which corruption reigns, degeneracy follows, and then swiftly vanishes once a more stable ruler seizes power. To me, it seems much more likely that a bad leader in an autocratic society leads to instability, which leads to decadence and 'degeneracy', than that all which is required to damage those institutions is some sort of mysteriously caustic degeneracy. Juvenal, in his satires, laments the political state of the Empire and the political detachment of the citizens as leading to the decay in statecraft. His treatise was written during the reign of the 'five good emperors', and shortly following his death Commodus rose to power, said to have turned Rome from 'a kingdom of gold to one of iron and rust'. Famed for his largesse and grand public spectacles, Commodus bought the loyalty of the public. Later attempts at corruption reform ended in the emperor's assassination, and the buying of the throne through the guard by a well-connected nobleman. This resulted in a civil war, and the descent into decadence and degeneracy under the late Severan dynasty. So clearly, in this case, we can observe a case of the degradation of civic responsibility, followed by the collapse of political and social institutions, and ending in the rank cultural collapse during Elgabalus's rule, during which the child Emperor prostituted himself in the imperial palace, married a Vestal Virgin, and attempted to change the religion of Rome to a Syrian cult centered around rock-worship.

All throughout history, conventions shift. During the height of the European golden ages, we have evocative, erotic art which lionizes the debauched, powerful women of ancient lore (Circe, Tomyris, Medea, Semiramis, Salome). The restriction of homosexuality was also not as staunch under different pagan regimes as it was under Abrahamic ones. So the idea that there is a hard list of 'degenerate' characteristics which need to be stamped out in order to preserve society is also an unsupported one.

So what is the degeneracy phenomenon which we can observe at the twilight of many great civilizations? I would compare it to an opportunistic infection. Whatever the social conventions were, they predictably fall apart when the social institutions which supported them collapse due to the erosive pressure of political imbalance. These institutions are meant to limit and moderate society, to conventionalize and order human behavior in a civilized way. When they collapse, it as if a body's immune system has collapsed, and all of the conditions which it had previously suppressed will come flooding into the void. In this situation attempting to save a civilization by stamping out 'degeneracy' would be analogous to attempting to save an AIDS victim by constantly fighting opportunistic infections: it's a losing cause. To save a civilization, a new social orthodoxy must be constructed, or the old one must be repaired. Once that happens, a new regime of behavioral conformance can be introduced, and it may not be the same as the old order.

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

-silently waits for bball to comment on this thread-
someloser
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6/27/2016 8:50:35 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Agree on the alt-right lending excessive weight to the ostensible destructive capabilities of "degeneracy".

Imo they're symptoms rather than the disease. Not to say they aren't problems in and of themselves...but being ok with gay pride parades won't doom your society to perdition per se.

And the whole "is x degenerate or ok?" trend that goes on in their(our?) forums is sub-retarded.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
slo1
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6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam? The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I can assure you secular left will not flock to Islam.

Neo-Christianity and Marxism... maybe. I don't think either are an end-all either though. The underlined portion would be ideal, and I do get the sense that we are slowly moving towards that.

Yeah, most of Western society will fragment into several of these groups and they'll duke it out, similar to how things unfolded in the Patristic period.

The first step has already happened, with our current generation starting to fall out of line with most religions. From 1990 to 2000, the combined membership of all Protestant denominations in the USA declined by almost 5 million members (9.5 percent), while the US population increased by 24 million (11 percent), and that's just stats for the Protestant church, this drop is happening for nearly every religious institution in America. (Too lazy to pull up data for each major religion, but the validity of my claim can be proven by a simple google search)

This was inevitable, largely due to the Protestant Reformation itself. Christianity never had the built-in mechanisms to manage heterodoxy which Islam did, so the cracks in its facade never really healed, they just widened and propagated until the religion became an incomprehensible mosaic of beliefs consumed by internecine conflict, without a clear and distinct vision of how society ought to be ordered. The Germanic and Anglo-Saxon Protestant worldviews were the wellspring which many of the pathologies of modern society sprung from.

As long as morals can develop and persist without the dependence or necessity for church or organized religion we'll move closer to a Nationalistic Humanistic movement. I suspect this will be even more of a reality by the time our children are our age.

I think that any cohesive, prescriptive ethical code will eventually take on the trappings of religion. Look at traditional Chinese philosophy for a good example. Humans are inclined to seek after patterns and rituals, and we recognize our own mythical archetypes in the world around us.
Skepsikyma
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6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I can assure you secular left will not flock to Islam.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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6/28/2016 1:34:41 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/27/2016 8:50:35 AM, someloser wrote:
Agree on the alt-right lending excessive weight to the ostensible destructive capabilities of "degeneracy".

Imo they're symptoms rather than the disease. Not to say they aren't problems in and of themselves...but being ok with gay pride parades won't doom your society to perdition per se.

Yep.

And the whole "is x degenerate or ok?" trend that goes on in their(our?) forums is sub-retarded.

Lol, yeah. It's reminiscent of Soviet-era purges.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
slo1
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6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.

I can assure you secular left will not flock to Islam.
Skepsikyma
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6/28/2016 2:11:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.


Still waiting for those articles.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
slo1
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6/28/2016 2:56:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 2:11:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.


Still waiting for those articles.

Here is the most liberal Bastian, Salon

http://www.salon.com...

It clearly states that Islam has a problem with anti-gay issues. It however points out that not all Muslims have the same belief and cautions against knee jerk reaction and the stigma that all Muslims are anti gay.

I surmise you would interpret this as support for gay hating Muslims, but it is not. It is support for religious freedom when an interpretation is compatible with US law and liberty.
Diqiucun_Cunmin
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6/28/2016 3:22:00 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
An excellent and eloquent OP from Skep, as usual. :) But I can't help thinking if degeneracy does in the cases of certain dynasties in China, trigger, or at least accelerate, decline.

I'll have to admit that I'm not well-read in history. Much of what I know comes from school, and although I have done some reading to supplement what I've learnt, few of these books go beyond merely recounting historical events.

In any case, many cases of degeneracy in various dynasties (e.g. Tang, Qing) seem to result from a long period of peace and prosperity. The ruling class is so used to a calm and peaceful life that they forget what their ancestors had to fight for. The result is extravagance and debauchery, which always leads to corruption, unjust taxation (for embezzlement), the forced takeover of peasant land, etc.. This damages the economy, as well as the livelihoods of the people and their confidence in the ruling class. In such dynasties, I feel the downfall actually began from degeneracy (amongst the ruling class, not the entire nation).

Degeneracy in modern society, however, does seem to be a symptom rather than the cause. The weakening of Confucian values in recent decades and the introduction of modern Western liberal values have weakened the moral fibre of many members of society, and this has led to degeneracy in many respects: The widespread consumption of pornography, sex before marriage, increasing rates of divorce, etc. Fortunately, there is still sufficient stigma surrounding friends with benefits and births outside wedlock, but I don't know how long we can still defend these values. The best solution is through moral education, the earlier introduction of ancient texts (currently we don't even start on Classical Chinese until the final year of primary school!), and so on.
The thing is, I hate relativism. I hate relativism more than I hate everything else, excepting, maybe, fibreglass powerboats... What it overlooks, to put it briefly and crudely, is the fixed structure of human nature. - Jerry Fodor

Don't be a stat cynic:
http://www.debate.org...

Response to conservative views on deforestation:
http://www.debate.org...

Topics I'd like to debate (not debating ATM): http://tinyurl.com...
Skepsikyma
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6/29/2016 12:05:13 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 2:56:24 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:11:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.


Still waiting for those articles.

Here is the most liberal Bastian, Salon

http://www.salon.com...

It clearly states that Islam has a problem with anti-gay issues. It however points out that not all Muslims have the same belief and cautions against knee jerk reaction and the stigma that all Muslims are anti gay.

I surmise you would interpret this as support for gay hating Muslims, but it is not. It is support for religious freedom when an interpretation is compatible with US law and liberty.

Here's one for your site: http://www.salon.com...

It tries to put the blame for this attack on conservatives and Christians, while outright lying about the conservative reaction to the attack (on the contrary, the right put MORE emphasis on this being an LGBT-targeted attack than the left did. Trump's entire speech was an impassioned defense of the gay community).

This sanctimonious drivel aimed at the Christian right: http://time.com...

Here's Slate living up to its reputation: http://www.slate.com...\

This ACLU staffer absurdly declares that the LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together against Christian hate: http://dailycaller.com...

And then this lovely compilations of articles which almost comically focus on the most out-there fanatics among American Christianity. https://www.quora.com...

I'm not saying that there aren't perfectly rational people on the Left. I'm saying that even the most rational have a problem criticizing Islam when it deserves it with the same vigor that they do Christianity. Recent polls showed that 50% of British Muslims believed that homosexuality should be outlawed. Not fanatics. Not Salafists. And not mere disapproval. 50% of normal, everyday Muslims believe that I should go to prison for sleeping with another man. When I see the same level of opprobrium on the left in reaction to that little fact that I see when some little shitty pizzeria refuses to cater a gay wedding, I'll see their 'support' of the gay community as something more than a cynical ploy to capture the votes of us and our loved ones, or a lazy attempt to virtue signal.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Skepsikyma
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6/29/2016 12:08:58 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 3:22:00 PM, Diqiucun_Cunmin wrote:
An excellent and eloquent OP from Skep, as usual. :) But I can't help thinking if degeneracy does in the cases of certain dynasties in China, trigger, or at least accelerate, decline.

I'll have to admit that I'm not well-read in history. Much of what I know comes from school, and although I have done some reading to supplement what I've learnt, few of these books go beyond merely recounting historical events.

In any case, many cases of degeneracy in various dynasties (e.g. Tang, Qing) seem to result from a long period of peace and prosperity. The ruling class is so used to a calm and peaceful life that they forget what their ancestors had to fight for. The result is extravagance and debauchery, which always leads to corruption, unjust taxation (for embezzlement), the forced takeover of peasant land, etc.. This damages the economy, as well as the livelihoods of the people and their confidence in the ruling class. In such dynasties, I feel the downfall actually began from degeneracy (amongst the ruling class, not the entire nation).

In this case, I think that the upper classes are a bit of a prophetic microcosm. It's their dereliction of traditional duties and lack of a sense of honor which unravels their moral codes, and leads to the appearance of what looks like degeneracy (deviance from the norm). The same laxness which leads to degeneracy also injures the mechanisms of the state, and the disorder spreads and leads to degeneracy elsewhere.

Degeneracy in modern society, however, does seem to be a symptom rather than the cause. The weakening of Confucian values in recent decades and the introduction of modern Western liberal values have weakened the moral fibre of many members of society, and this has led to degeneracy in many respects: The widespread consumption of pornography, sex before marriage, increasing rates of divorce, etc. Fortunately, there is still sufficient stigma surrounding friends with benefits and births outside wedlock, but I don't know how long we can still defend these values. The best solution is through moral education, the earlier introduction of ancient texts (currently we don't even start on Classical Chinese until the final year of primary school!), and so on.

I hope that you guys can preserve your culture. The resurgence of traditionalism and blood-and-soil nationalism in the West is a great sign, and maybe our toxic cultural exports will die with out bloated 'post-national' culture.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Peepette
Posts: 1,242
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6/29/2016 2:07:54 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

But Islam is hypocritical in this regard since sex with beardless boys is not seen as homosexuality. Userage of women ( not of their religious sect) and young boys is seen as acceptable. Are not men who have sex with boys also homosexuals?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
http://www.cnn.com...


You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.

I can assure you secular left will not flock to Islam.
slo1
Posts: 4,364
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6/29/2016 3:06:08 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/29/2016 12:05:13 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:56:24 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:11:06 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.


Still waiting for those articles.

Here is the most liberal Bastian, Salon

http://www.salon.com...

It clearly states that Islam has a problem with anti-gay issues. It however points out that not all Muslims have the same belief and cautions against knee jerk reaction and the stigma that all Muslims are anti gay.

I surmise you would interpret this as support for gay hating Muslims, but it is not. It is support for religious freedom when an interpretation is compatible with US law and liberty.

Here's one for your site: http://www.salon.com...

It tries to put the blame for this attack on conservatives and Christians, while outright lying about the conservative reaction to the attack (on the contrary, the right put MORE emphasis on this being an LGBT-targeted attack than the left did. Trump's entire speech was an impassioned defense of the gay community).

This sanctimonious drivel aimed at the Christian right: http://time.com...

Here's Slate living up to its reputation: http://www.slate.com...\

This ACLU staffer absurdly declares that the LGBT and Muslim communities must stand together against Christian hate: http://dailycaller.com...

And then this lovely compilations of articles which almost comically focus on the most out-there fanatics among American Christianity. https://www.quora.com...

I'm not saying that there aren't perfectly rational people on the Left. I'm saying that even the most rational have a problem criticizing Islam when it deserves it with the same vigor that they do Christianity. Recent polls showed that 50% of British Muslims believed that homosexuality should be outlawed. Not fanatics. Not Salafists. And not mere disapproval. 50% of normal, everyday Muslims believe that I should go to prison for sleeping with another man. When I see the same level of opprobrium on the left in reaction to that little fact that I see when some little shitty pizzeria refuses to cater a gay wedding, I'll see their 'support' of the gay community as something more than a cynical ploy to capture the votes of us and our loved ones, or a lazy attempt to virtue signal.

I'm not arguing that the left doesn't some times say stupid things. I'm arguing your premise that it means they are going to turn Muslim.
slo1
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6/29/2016 3:10:17 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 6/29/2016 2:07:54 AM, Peepette wrote:
At 6/28/2016 2:08:05 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:33:32 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/28/2016 1:22:02 PM, slo1 wrote:
At 6/26/2016 1:48:34 AM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 6:42:09 PM, Blade-of-Truth wrote:
At 6/25/2016 5:10:55 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 6/25/2016 4:47:01 PM, Greyparrot wrote:
At 6/25/2016 3:54:39 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:

When Rome's ancient social institutions failed, it replaced them with Christianity molded into a Roman-influenced form, and violently detached from most of its Semitic roots. Now that Christianity has failed the West as a moral arbiter and social modifier, we must likewise seek out a new framework to adapt to the skeleton of our old cultural order.

What framework do you predict?

Possible Neo-Chrisitianity, Marxism, Fascism or Islam, but hopefully a form of devout Nationalistic Humanism suffused with Western cultural tradition.

I don't see Fascism or Islam playing that role, mostly due to the bias that exists in the general population towards both systems.

Fascism is undergoing a boy-who-cried wolf effect at the moment, and the flirtation of the left with Islam may be more than just a flirtation. The secular left has been hungry for a code, for a way of life, since it abandoned Christianity and castigated the religion as a symbol of the 'other' ('bigotted, racist, and homophobic (TM) rednecks'). It's why they treat things like 'new atheism', social justice, and feminism with such cult-like abandon; that pervasive sense of anomie is stifling, but the only proximal outlet is a religion which their culture violently disowned. Judaism is insular, and the eastern religions are too alien. I actually wouldn't be surprised by moderate conversion to Islam on the left, as either that or Marxism are their only viable 'old' religions to turn to.

You really believe secular left folks will flock to Islam?

I think that their is a certain subset within the left which is looking for a replacement to the holistic worldview once provided by religion, and that Islam can fill that need. 'Flock' isn't the right word; more like slowly trickle.

The perception that the left supports and tolerates Islam more so than Christianity is not bounded by reality. Such thinking can only arise from a bias when interpreting the lefts defense of immigration and not steriotyping ALL lMuslim as crazed people who want to chop off everyone's head.

I disagree. The fact that, after the Orlando shooter, the progressive press overwhelmingly focused on Christian anti-homosexuality while either remaining silent or actively defending the real culprit demonstrates that. The Orlando shooting had nothing to do with Christianity, and the shooter's father was a supporter of a regime (The Taliban) which murdered gay people, yet see how many liberal publication articles that you can find discussing the problems which Islam has with homosexuality. For every one that you find, I guarantee that I can find five which bafflingly chose to lunge for Christianity's throat in the wake of the shooting.

I have never seen any commentary that linked the shooter to Christianity. I'm sure that there was commentary that the Abraham religions all have sects with issues with homosexuality, which is a very true statement.

A secular leftist will denounce Russian Orthodox, Islam, or Ugandan Christian treatment of gays equally. If I remind people that a gay man can get 15 years in prison in Uganda for open gay behavior in public it does not indicate support for Muslim sects that kill gays.

There are significant populations of
Muslims that follow a school of Islam that still believes homosexuality is wrong, however, don't believe government or any individual other than God should be involved with punishment. Pointing out such facts does not diminish the anger I hold against the Islamic sects who want gov to punish homosexuals.

But Islam is hypocritical in this regard since sex with beardless boys is not seen as homosexuality. Userage of women ( not of their religious sect) and young boys is seen as acceptable. Are not men who have sex with boys also homosexuals?
http://www.ibtimes.co.uk...
http://www.cnn.com...

That is all fine and dandy, but I am arguing that there is zero threat that secular left will turn Muslim.

Ultra Orthodox Rabbi suck the penises of boys whom they just circumcised. I'm don't think that constitutes homosexuality but it is jacked up. All fundamental religions are jacked up.


You incorrectly assign support for all of Islam when the left argues that they will not accept stigmatizing all Muslims as people who want to kill gays.

Again I give my personal assurance that secular Left will not flock to Islam. It simply is not a possibility.

I can assure you secular left will not flock to Islam.