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Anti-SJWs and SJW Tendencies

bsh1
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7/5/2016 2:08:28 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
One of the main complaints against SJWs, as I understand it, is that they label others who disagree with them in a negative fashion. SJWs, their critics contend, would attach to their ideological opposites such monikers as "homophobe" and "racist."

These terms carry very obvious negative connotations, such that they are used to suppress the viewpoints of others. By dismissing someone as racist, one can comfortably ignore whatever logic the "racist" is presenting, while signaling to others that this is a person who ought not to be listened to. These terms, it is held, are used to repress certain perspectives that challenge the main narrative in question, and are thus contrary to basic ideals of freedom.

As I think about all this, I sometimes wonder whether the anti-SJWs, in their verve against this perceived issue, commit the same offenses as the SJWs they lambaste (I say "perceived" because I am not getting into whether it exists, not because I deny that it exists).

Consider, for a moment, that the term SJW has been used, by many people as a negative label for others. It has been used, in effect, as an insult, or a signifier that the person labeled an SJW is a "freedom-suppressor" or just simply an idiot. Calling someone an SJW signals, to a certain group of people, that someone is not worth listening to, or that it is okay to ignore someones logic because they are an SJW. In this sense, I don't see a significant difference (at least in kind) with calling someone a "homophobe" or calling them an SJW, at least when those terms are used to imply that someone's point of view ought not to be treated with any respect or sincerity.

In this post, I am not making a statement about whether I agree with the critiques of SJWs or not, I am simply laying out what I perceive to be the case against them. However, I do see remarkable similarities in the use of the phrase "SJW" to demean the ideas of others without intellectually engaging with them and in the very issues that the anti-SJWs critique the SJWs for.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?
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bsh1
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7/5/2016 2:13:23 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Also, feel free to clarify the case against SJWs if I somehow misconstrued it. Thanks!
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"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/5/2016 5:01:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 2:08:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
One of the main complaints against SJWs, as I understand it, is that they label others who disagree with them in a negative fashion. SJWs, their critics contend, would attach to their ideological opposites such monikers as "homophobe" and "racist."

These terms carry very obvious negative connotations, such that they are used to suppress the viewpoints of others. By dismissing someone as racist, one can comfortably ignore whatever logic the "racist" is presenting, while signaling to others that this is a person who ought not to be listened to. These terms, it is held, are used to repress certain perspectives that challenge the main narrative in question, and are thus contrary to basic ideals of freedom.

As I think about all this, I sometimes wonder whether the anti-SJWs, in their verve against this perceived issue, commit the same offenses as the SJWs they lambaste (I say "perceived" because I am not getting into whether it exists, not because I deny that it exists).

Consider, for a moment, that the term SJW has been used, by many people as a negative label for others. It has been used, in effect, as an insult, or a signifier that the person labeled an SJW is a "freedom-suppressor" or just simply an idiot. Calling someone an SJW signals, to a certain group of people, that someone is not worth listening to, or that it is okay to ignore someones logic because they are an SJW. In this sense, I don't see a significant difference (at least in kind) with calling someone a "homophobe" or calling them an SJW, at least when those terms are used to imply that someone's point of view ought not to be treated with any respect or sincerity.

In this post, I am not making a statement about whether I agree with the critiques of SJWs or not, I am simply laying out what I perceive to be the case against them. However, I do see remarkable similarities in the use of the phrase "SJW" to demean the ideas of others without intellectually engaging with them and in the very issues that the anti-SJWs critique the SJWs for.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Yes, the term does have the ability to be used in a similar way. They're not identical, as the SJW moniker is more of an identifier of an 'outsider' to the anti-SJW crowd as things stand now, while 'bigot' and 'racist' are older terms with stronger meaning, and more of a sense of cultural opprobrium surrounding them.

It is for this reason that I prefer to use the term to discuss the movement which it describes, not to label individuals with whom I am having a discussion. That's just as counter productive as hysterically screaming bigot when someone tries to introduce any sense of nuance to questions about culture, religion, and ethnicity.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
bsh1
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7/5/2016 5:48:48 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 5:01:53 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/5/2016 2:08:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
One of the main complaints against SJWs, as I understand it, is that they label others who disagree with them in a negative fashion. SJWs, their critics contend, would attach to their ideological opposites such monikers as "homophobe" and "racist."

These terms carry very obvious negative connotations, such that they are used to suppress the viewpoints of others. By dismissing someone as racist, one can comfortably ignore whatever logic the "racist" is presenting, while signaling to others that this is a person who ought not to be listened to. These terms, it is held, are used to repress certain perspectives that challenge the main narrative in question, and are thus contrary to basic ideals of freedom.

As I think about all this, I sometimes wonder whether the anti-SJWs, in their verve against this perceived issue, commit the same offenses as the SJWs they lambaste (I say "perceived" because I am not getting into whether it exists, not because I deny that it exists).

Consider, for a moment, that the term SJW has been used, by many people as a negative label for others. It has been used, in effect, as an insult, or a signifier that the person labeled an SJW is a "freedom-suppressor" or just simply an idiot. Calling someone an SJW signals, to a certain group of people, that someone is not worth listening to, or that it is okay to ignore someones logic because they are an SJW. In this sense, I don't see a significant difference (at least in kind) with calling someone a "homophobe" or calling them an SJW, at least when those terms are used to imply that someone's point of view ought not to be treated with any respect or sincerity.

In this post, I am not making a statement about whether I agree with the critiques of SJWs or not, I am simply laying out what I perceive to be the case against them. However, I do see remarkable similarities in the use of the phrase "SJW" to demean the ideas of others without intellectually engaging with them and in the very issues that the anti-SJWs critique the SJWs for.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Yes, the term does have the ability to be used in a similar way. They're not identical, as the SJW moniker is more of an identifier of an 'outsider' to the anti-SJW crowd as things stand now, while 'bigot' and 'racist' are older terms with stronger meaning, and more of a sense of cultural opprobrium surrounding them.

Sure, I'd agree with that. It's why I specified it was an similarity in kind, rather than a similarity in degree. I certainly think the older terms have a stronger effect and connotation (higher degree), but I often feel that the intent behind both "SJW" and those words is the same, and even in cases where the intent is not the same, the effects are comparable, again, even if they're separated by degrees.

It is for this reason that I prefer to use the term to discuss the movement which it describes, not to label individuals with whom I am having a discussion. That's just as counter productive as hysterically screaming bigot when someone tries to introduce any sense of nuance to questions about culture, religion, and ethnicity.

This is a very good attitude to take. +1
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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slo1
Posts: 4,341
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7/5/2016 8:05:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 2:08:28 PM, bsh1 wrote:
One of the main complaints against SJWs, as I understand it, is that they label others who disagree with them in a negative fashion. SJWs, their critics contend, would attach to their ideological opposites such monikers as "homophobe" and "racist."

These terms carry very obvious negative connotations, such that they are used to suppress the viewpoints of others. By dismissing someone as racist, one can comfortably ignore whatever logic the "racist" is presenting, while signaling to others that this is a person who ought not to be listened to. These terms, it is held, are used to repress certain perspectives that challenge the main narrative in question, and are thus contrary to basic ideals of freedom.

As I think about all this, I sometimes wonder whether the anti-SJWs, in their verve against this perceived issue, commit the same offenses as the SJWs they lambaste (I say "perceived" because I am not getting into whether it exists, not because I deny that it exists).

Consider, for a moment, that the term SJW has been used, by many people as a negative label for others. It has been used, in effect, as an insult, or a signifier that the person labeled an SJW is a "freedom-suppressor" or just simply an idiot. Calling someone an SJW signals, to a certain group of people, that someone is not worth listening to, or that it is okay to ignore someones logic because they are an SJW. In this sense, I don't see a significant difference (at least in kind) with calling someone a "homophobe" or calling them an SJW, at least when those terms are used to imply that someone's point of view ought not to be treated with any respect or sincerity.

In this post, I am not making a statement about whether I agree with the critiques of SJWs or not, I am simply laying out what I perceive to be the case against them. However, I do see remarkable similarities in the use of the phrase "SJW" to demean the ideas of others without intellectually engaging with them and in the very issues that the anti-SJWs critique the SJWs for.

Thoughts? Comments? Reactions?

Spot on. All one needs to look at is the is that cluster of a thread on bigotry. I tried to demonstrate when opposition to a religion or its followers moves from healthy disagreement or skepticism to bigotry by giving three examples: opposition to Sharia law, opposing an individual self opting to Sharia law via arbitration, denying a citizen who practices Islam from buying property in a select area because of their culture.

Next thing I know I'm a SJW by YYW and an idiot by Ballcrook.

It is out of hand. However at some point there are beliefs which are so outrageous such as the later of the three examples I gave or on SJW side such as protesting an art exhibit where white people try on a Kimono on grounds of imperialism where you have to have intolerance to the belief.
Wylted
Posts: 21,167
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7/5/2016 9:31:54 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Have you ever tried to use logic with an SJW? It is fruitless. They will tell you that logic is a way the white male cis, keeps everyone else down.
someloser
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7/5/2016 10:27:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Of course they seem superficially similar. But to those of us who have been involved in the culture war for a while, this much is obvious:

- anti-SJWs (nominal or otherwise) typically use "SJW" as a discounter for reasons that are very different from the SJWs' use of "racist" or "bigot"
- They do so with less frequency regardless (even when it is for the same reasons as SJWs)
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
someloser
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7/5/2016 10:29:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
One example: I know of quite a few people who would use SJW to indiscriminately refer to anyone in the progressive left.

Meanwhile, folks like Vox Day use it to mark certain behavioral/rhetorical tactics (particularly totalitarian tendencies and no-platforming), which he sometimes extends to people who are nto on the left at all.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
bsh1
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7/6/2016 7:45:28 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/5/2016 10:27:16 PM, someloser wrote:
Of course they seem superficially similar. But to those of us who have been involved in the culture war for a while, this much is obvious:

I am not, of course, claiming that all SJW's use "SJW" to put down others' viewpoints. But certainly, there are many who use it. I think it's very clear, when someone says something like, "your SJW views are just worthless," that the term SJW is used in the same way as the word "racist" operates here: "your racist views are just worthless."
Live Long and Prosper

I'm a Bish.


"Twilight isn't just about obtuse metaphors between cannibalism and premarital sex, it also teaches us the futility of hope." - Raisor

"[Bsh1] is the Guinan of DDO." - ButterCatX

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