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An Open Letter to Black People

YYW
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7/8/2016 5:14:40 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Look, we know you are more likely to be victimized by police brutality than other people. You are also more likely to commit crimes, carry weapons, commit violent crimes, and shoot at cops than any other race, but even though the statistics bear these factors out, that doesn't mean that the police should be trigger happy. This isn't a "collective guilt" thing, so much as it is a "let's address reality as it is" thing.

And this is reality: riots do not make police officers less likely to overreact... rather, they have the exact opposite effect, with the added bonus that they increase the probability that the cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later because if they have to chose between their life or yours, they're going to chose theirs.

This is the further reality: most cops are not racist. There are plenty of black and minority cops, and most cops are good people who are trying to do the best they can. But they're human, they're not perfect, and they see the kinds of violence that black communities visit upon themselves and upon society every day of their lives.

Just like you, they want to go home to their families. Making an idiotic display of violence like is happening in Texas as I write this does not advance your or any cause, it does not advance racial equality, it does not help any effort towards making black lives "matter" and it most certainly does not make you any more secure or likely to be treated equally under the law.

So, don't do this. Stop. If you see your friends wanting to go riot, stop them. If you see your neighbors wanting to engage in acts of impropriety that disrupt society, suggest that they do something else that might actually effect meaningful change.

In the big picture, progress will not happen until black culture changes, because black culture is the cause of why you are all treated in a certain way. This is a hard truth. It's not fair, and I'm not saying I support it. But I understand it, and you can not wish it away. You can call it racism, but you're not going to change how things are. You must take the first step, and be the change you want to see in the world.

The stupidity of BlackLivesMatter has not helped. It's made things worse than they have ever been, and they have blighted the cause of racial equality with their methods. Society is watching, and the world is watching, and they do not side with rioters. They side with the police, even if the are afraid to say it out loud.

You must take Barack Obama's advice, and work together with community leaders to rebuild. You must listen to what he said, and you must refrain from engaging in reactionary political displays of ostentation and protest. Until you do this, you will not make headway. You will be stuck in a never-ending cycle of symbolic beau geste, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You will end your life's work where it began... in despair.
Tsar of DDO
Df0512
Posts: 966
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7/8/2016 6:06:15 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 5:14:40 AM, YYW wrote:
Look, we know you are more likely to be victimized by police brutality than other people. You are also more likely to commit crimes, carry weapons, commit violent crimes, and shoot at cops than any other race, but even though the statistics bear these factors out, that doesn't mean that the police should be trigger happy. This isn't a "collective guilt" thing, so much as it is a "let's address reality as it is" thing.

And this is reality: riots do not make police officers less likely to overreact... rather, they have the exact opposite effect, with the added bonus that they increase the probability that the cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later because if they have to chose between their life or yours, they're going to chose theirs.

This is the further reality: most cops are not racist. There are plenty of black and minority cops, and most cops are good people who are trying to do the best they can. But they're human, they're not perfect, and they see the kinds of violence that black communities visit upon themselves and upon society every day of their lives.

Just like you, they want to go home to their families. Making an idiotic display of violence like is happening in Texas as I write this does not advance your or any cause, it does not advance racial equality, it does not help any effort towards making black lives "matter" and it most certainly does not make you any more secure or likely to be treated equally under the law.

So, don't do this. Stop. If you see your friends wanting to go riot, stop them. If you see your neighbors wanting to engage in acts of impropriety that disrupt society, suggest that they do something else that might actually effect meaningful change.

In the big picture, progress will not happen until black culture changes, because black culture is the cause of why you are all treated in a certain way. This is a hard truth. It's not fair, and I'm not saying I support it. But I understand it, and you can not wish it away. You can call it racism, but you're not going to change how things are. You must take the first step, and be the change you want to see in the world.

The stupidity of BlackLivesMatter has not helped. It's made things worse than they have ever been, and they have blighted the cause of racial equality with their methods. Society is watching, and the world is watching, and they do not side with rioters. They side with the police, even if the are afraid to say it out loud.

You must take Barack Obama's advice, and work together with community leaders to rebuild. You must listen to what he said, and you must refrain from engaging in reactionary political displays of ostentation and protest. Until you do this, you will not make headway. You will be stuck in a never-ending cycle of symbolic beau geste, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You will end your life's work where it began... in despair.

Of all the BS that was said in this open letter, this statement takes the cake: "In the big picture, progress will not happen until black culture changes, because black culture is the cause of why you are all treated in a certain way. This is a hard truth."

We wont make any progress until we change black culture. WHAT! And what exactly is it about black culture that you think we need to change to make progress? You think "committing crimes, carrying weapons, committing violent crimes, and shooting at cops than any other race" is part of black culture? If not I dont understand how someones culture can be a problem like you say it is?

The simple fact that your addressing this black people should have told me that you already got it wrong. Your assuming every black person agrees with this rhetoric. You are assuming every black person in Texas agrees with this rhetoric. Your assuming the shooter was a African american BLM supporter. The problem is a not black culture the problem is people making all these assumptions. As if I, a father of 2, need to be told not to shoot a cop, just because I am black.

Let me be clear. None of this would be happening if this country wasn't racist to begin with, period. This shooting, all these police shootings, BLM, are products of a long lasting issue that has yet to be properly addressed in this country. Quote all the stats you want, but you don't understand the cycle of inequality that caused all this. You dont get why black people are stuck in ghettos and why they feel like they have to commit crimes. You admit that we are victimized by police brutality but in the same paragraph seemingly blame us for it. No one is to blame for police brutality but the police.

This problem does not start with black people. It started a long time ago. It has went into hiding but it has never gone away. You and people like you will never understand this until you see that. Just because we get to be treated like humans does not mean the issue has been solved. Now i am not saying we are not innocent. We are thinking people. But when people like you generalize so heavily like this and assume this is how all black people think, you take away our ability to think for ourselves and turn us into criminals and BLM members. I am neither.
keithprosser
Posts: 2,033
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7/8/2016 10:11:57 AM
Posted: 5 months ago
Look, we know you are more likely to be victimized by police brutality than other people. You are also more likely to commit crimes,

I can imagine a law-abiding black reading the first sentence and nodding in agreement, and then exploding at the second sentence! It tells a law-abiding black that he is more likely to commit a crime because he is black, completely ignoring the fact he is very unlikely to commit a crime because he is law-abiding. The writers mind set is - perhaps unconsciously - to make what matters about a person to be their skin colour, not how criminally inclined they are.

Racism is all about judging individuals not on their personal merits but on a the basis of the stereotype of some group they are assigned to. If judging people on the basis of an stereotype they don't actually resemble was not bad enough, usually the stereotypes themselves are negative as they are usually drawn by selecting the worst possible examples, so all blacks are assumed to be gangsters at least potential gangsters and all Muslims are at least potential terrorists.

It is hardly bleeding heart liberalism to insist people should be judged purely on their individual merits and faults, which telling a black person he is a potental criminal just because he is black is clearly not doing.
YYW
Posts: 36,305
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7/8/2016 12:07:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 6:06:15 AM, Df0512 wrote:
At 7/8/2016 5:14:40 AM, YYW wrote:
Look, we know you are more likely to be victimized by police brutality than other people. You are also more likely to commit crimes, carry weapons, commit violent crimes, and shoot at cops than any other race, but even though the statistics bear these factors out, that doesn't mean that the police should be trigger happy. This isn't a "collective guilt" thing, so much as it is a "let's address reality as it is" thing.

And this is reality: riots do not make police officers less likely to overreact... rather, they have the exact opposite effect, with the added bonus that they increase the probability that the cops are going to shoot first and ask questions later because if they have to chose between their life or yours, they're going to chose theirs.

This is the further reality: most cops are not racist. There are plenty of black and minority cops, and most cops are good people who are trying to do the best they can. But they're human, they're not perfect, and they see the kinds of violence that black communities visit upon themselves and upon society every day of their lives.

Just like you, they want to go home to their families. Making an idiotic display of violence like is happening in Texas as I write this does not advance your or any cause, it does not advance racial equality, it does not help any effort towards making black lives "matter" and it most certainly does not make you any more secure or likely to be treated equally under the law.

So, don't do this. Stop. If you see your friends wanting to go riot, stop them. If you see your neighbors wanting to engage in acts of impropriety that disrupt society, suggest that they do something else that might actually effect meaningful change.

In the big picture, progress will not happen until black culture changes, because black culture is the cause of why you are all treated in a certain way. This is a hard truth. It's not fair, and I'm not saying I support it. But I understand it, and you can not wish it away. You can call it racism, but you're not going to change how things are. You must take the first step, and be the change you want to see in the world.

The stupidity of BlackLivesMatter has not helped. It's made things worse than they have ever been, and they have blighted the cause of racial equality with their methods. Society is watching, and the world is watching, and they do not side with rioters. They side with the police, even if the are afraid to say it out loud.

You must take Barack Obama's advice, and work together with community leaders to rebuild. You must listen to what he said, and you must refrain from engaging in reactionary political displays of ostentation and protest. Until you do this, you will not make headway. You will be stuck in a never-ending cycle of symbolic beau geste, full of sound and fury, signifying nothing. You will end your life's work where it began... in despair.

Of all the BS that was said in this open letter, this statement takes the cake: "In the big picture, progress will not happen until black culture changes, because black culture is the cause of why you are all treated in a certain way. This is a hard truth."

We wont make any progress until we change black culture. WHAT! And what exactly is it about black culture that you think we need to change to make progress? You think "committing crimes, carrying weapons, committing violent crimes, and shooting at cops than any other race" is part of black culture? If not I dont understand how someones culture can be a problem like you say it is?

The simple fact that your addressing this black people should have told me that you already got it wrong. Your assuming every black person agrees with this rhetoric. You are assuming every black person in Texas agrees with this rhetoric. Your assuming the shooter was a African american BLM supporter. The problem is a not black culture the problem is people making all these assumptions. As if I, a father of 2, need to be told not to shoot a cop, just because I am black.

Let me be clear. None of this would be happening if this country wasn't racist to begin with, period. This shooting, all these police shootings, BLM, are products of a long lasting issue that has yet to be properly addressed in this country. Quote all the stats you want, but you don't understand the cycle of inequality that caused all this. You dont get why black people are stuck in ghettos and why they feel like they have to commit crimes. You admit that we are victimized by police brutality but in the same paragraph seemingly blame us for it. No one is to blame for police brutality but the police.

This problem does not start with black people. It started a long time ago. It has went into hiding but it has never gone away. You and people like you will never understand this until you see that. Just because we get to be treated like humans does not mean the issue has been solved. Now i am not saying we are not innocent. We are thinking people. But when people like you generalize so heavily like this and assume this is how all black people think, you take away our ability to think for ourselves and turn us into criminals and BLM members. I am neither.

You clearly did not read what I wrote. And you are clearly a part of the problem, not the solution.
Tsar of DDO
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.
YYW
Posts: 36,305
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7/8/2016 12:42:06 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

So black people are not accountable for their choices?
Tsar of DDO
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 12:48:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:42:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

So black people are not accountable for their choices?

Punishing people for making those choices is fine, but it will do nothing to solve the problem of why those choices keep happening. Attacking symptoms will never cure a disease.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?
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I_Wanna_Rawk
Posts: 480
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7/8/2016 1:04:53 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
What we need to do, instead of generalizing or calling "the other color" for lack of a better term racist, criminal, unable to understand, etc. but before that can happen, we need to stop. Like YYW said, rioting and killing are most defenitely NOT the answer. They only worsen race relations because people begin to think that that is just what all black people do, even though that is completely false. Again, like YYW said, the vast majority of police are good people just wanting to help their communities. Reacting to every high profile black shooting on the news with riots fixes nothing. It just makes it worse. Yes, there are many problems with our country. However, from my perspective, systemic racism is thankfully no longer one of those. If people truly believe that it is, they should take the path of Martin Luther King Jr. His PEACEFUL protests and campaigns of nonviolence finally forced Americans to wake up and see what life was really like for black people, without making the bias worse, like the rioters are doing. What we need is to treat each other like normal human beings, not "black people" or "white people". That kind of language just makes others feel alienated, and it is hurting our country. How? Once, I tried to have a polite conversation with a black freind about this, how rioting is bad. He started out agreeing with me, but when I said that not all cops are bad he got angry and told be that was "just a white persons point of view" like it didn't matter because of my race. I'm sure others have experianced this, from my perspective and the opposite. I beg all Americans, treat each other like people, judge each other on no basis other than actions, live, work, play together without any discrimination, and please, when you see something like I was writing about, take a stand. For justice, and the values that have shaped America.
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes. In others, it makes it far more likely. Especially when these people are not poor by their own hand.
I_Wanna_Rawk
Posts: 480
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7/8/2016 1:11:56 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes. In others, it makes it far more likely. Especially when these people are not poor by their own hand.

No, no it doesn't. Economic standing does not force anyone to commit crimes. You choose to commit crimes.
YYW
Posts: 36,305
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7/8/2016 1:13:33 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:48:36 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:42:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

So black people are not accountable for their choices?

Punishing people for making those choices is fine, but it will do nothing to solve the problem of why those choices keep happening. Attacking symptoms will never cure a disease.

I'm not talking about punishment. I'm talking about what choices blacks have made for generations that got them where they are now.

I agree that throwing more people (and black men in particular) in jail is a terrible idea, and frankly, I blame much of where we are now on the fact that black men are thrown in jail far too often. It destroys lives, communities, and costs taxpayers too much money.
Tsar of DDO
YYW
Posts: 36,305
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7/8/2016 1:18:38 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 10:11:57 AM, keithprosser wrote:
Look, we know you are more likely to be victimized by police brutality than other people. You are also more likely to commit crimes,

I can imagine a law-abiding black reading the first sentence and nodding in agreement, and then exploding at the second sentence! It tells a law-abiding black that he is more likely to commit a crime because he is black, completely ignoring the fact he is very unlikely to commit a crime because he is law-abiding. The writers mind set is - perhaps unconsciously - to make what matters about a person to be their skin colour, not how criminally inclined they are.

Data doesn't lie, but people do... just as people can make emotional arguments--as you are doing now--to attempt to sidestep data's impact.

Racism is all about judging individuals not on their personal merits but on a the basis of the stereotype of some group they are assigned to. If judging people on the basis of an stereotype they don't actually resemble was not bad enough, usually the stereotypes themselves are negative as they are usually drawn by selecting the worst possible examples, so all blacks are assumed to be gangsters at least potential gangsters and all Muslims are at least potential terrorists.

This is entirely irrelevant to what I wrote. This is not about judging or stereotypes, but probability.

It is hardly bleeding heart liberalism to insist people should be judged purely on their individual merits and faults, which telling a black person he is a potental criminal just because he is black is clearly not doing.

If that is all you took from this, then I doubt that there is any substantive discussion that could be had between us.
Tsar of DDO
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 1:21:52 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:11:56 PM, I_Wanna_Rawk wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes. In others, it makes it far more likely. Especially when these people are not poor by their own hand.

No, no it doesn't. Economic standing does not force anyone to commit crimes. You choose to commit crimes.

Wrong. When the alternative is death or dying due to starvation, cold, hunger, etc, there is no choice at all. This is the same mistake people make about the free markets when they say there is no force involved.
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 1:23:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:13:33 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:48:36 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:42:06 PM, YYW wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

So black people are not accountable for their choices?

Punishing people for making those choices is fine, but it will do nothing to solve the problem of why those choices keep happening. Attacking symptoms will never cure a disease.

I'm not talking about punishment. I'm talking about what choices blacks have made for generations that got them where they are now.

I agree that throwing more people (and black men in particular) in jail is a terrible idea, and frankly, I blame much of where we are now on the fact that black men are thrown in jail far too often. It destroys lives, communities, and costs taxpayers too much money.

Reforming the prison system would go a long way toward fixing these problems.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 1:38:23 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes.

So, just so I can clearly understand what you are stating here: with regards to violence and illegal dealings, their agency, their free will on the matter has been removed, and they are forced/compelled/seemingly under geas to engage in these acts?
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 1:40:09 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:21:52 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:11:56 PM, I_Wanna_Rawk wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes. In others, it makes it far more likely. Especially when these people are not poor by their own hand.

No, no it doesn't. Economic standing does not force anyone to commit crimes. You choose to commit crimes.

Wrong. When the alternative is death or dying due to starvation, cold, hunger, etc, there is no choice at all. This is the same mistake people make about the free markets when they say there is no force involved.

Considering the welfare budget for the US, and the incredibly lax/easy was to game the system, I find this assertion to be wholly false.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 1:40:37 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:38:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes.

So, just so I can clearly understand what you are stating here: with regards to violence and illegal dealings, their agency, their free will on the matter has been removed, and they are forced/compelled/seemingly under geas to engage in these acts?

When the choice is between stealing to save yourself from starving to death and starving to death, neither choice nor free will exists.
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 1:41:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:40:09 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:21:52 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:11:56 PM, I_Wanna_Rawk wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes. In others, it makes it far more likely. Especially when these people are not poor by their own hand.

No, no it doesn't. Economic standing does not force anyone to commit crimes. You choose to commit crimes.

Wrong. When the alternative is death or dying due to starvation, cold, hunger, etc, there is no choice at all. This is the same mistake people make about the free markets when they say there is no force involved.

Considering the welfare budget for the US, and the incredibly lax/easy was to game the system, I find this assertion to be wholly false.

It's actually incredibly difficult to game the system, and over 80% of welfare recipients are on welfare for less than a year before finding work and getting off it.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 1:44:36 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:40:37 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:38:23 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:05:40 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 1:00:16 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

Being poor forces black people to violence and illegal dealings?

In some cases, yes.

So, just so I can clearly understand what you are stating here: with regards to violence and illegal dealings, their agency, their free will on the matter has been removed, and they are forced/compelled/seemingly under geas to engage in these acts?

When the choice is between stealing to save yourself from starving to death and starving to death, neither choice nor free will exists.

In the US, such a dichotomy doesn't exist to that dramatic of a degree. Our homeless, literally enjoy a better standard of living then most third world countries because such a dichotomy has so many provisions to prevent it .
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/8/2016 1:47:15 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 5:14:40 AM, YYW wrote:
This is the further reality: most cops are not racist. There are plenty of black and minority cops, and most cops are good people who are trying to do the best they can. But they're human, they're not perfect, and they see the kinds of violence that black communities visit upon themselves and upon society every day of their lives.

Great post. This is the only part I don't agree with.

In fact, most cops ARE racist. We are all racist. Cops aren't magically the one demographic that isn't racist. Like you said, they are more likely to be racist because they see the kinds of violence that black communities impose upon themselves and society every day.

Studies have been shown to prove that people are inherently racist. I don't recall a lot of them off the top of my head, but here are 2 examples: In one, people of all races, including black, assumed that black people can endure more pain and levels of aggression (so they accept greater violence against them). I guess this comes from a perception of them as "tough" or maybe even "animals." But look it up; it's consistent. In another study, 4 year old black boys holding toys were consistently assumed to be holding guns, when white boys of the same age with the same object were not assumed to be holding guns. This is relevant in the case of Tamir Rice, for example.

I totally understand the reasoning of being trigger happy. But I also believe that part of the cop's extensive training should be learning to resist that instinct. They're supposed to deescalate and detain - not kill. Why do cops insist on shooting multiple times at close range? I think another part of the outrage is that cops claim to "fear for their lives" even in instances where they were clearly not in danger! I believe it was the case for all 3 lives taken yesterday: Alton Sterling, Philandro Castile and the much less talked about, unarmed white teenager, Dylan Noble.

In the case of Tamir Rice, shouldn't the officer have at least approached the kid and determined if he was a threat before ASSUMING he was a threat to the point of murdering him? I assume you agree, but my point is that these things can't be written off as excusable "mistakes." These are people's lives and children. If a civilian assumed someone holding a gun (especially in an open carry state) or had a gun and shot them preemptively, there would be no defense or legal excuse for that person. They wouldn't get a pass for needlessly killing someone. Or how about this - what if I, as a legal carrying gun owner (we can't carry in NY/NJ but let's pretend) assumed that a police officer was going to shoot ME for no reason, because they got aggressive... would people give me a pass for shooting that officer, despite my fear? Absolutely not. Even if he was armed and hostile.

Cops shouldn't be the only ones with a pass. It's interesting that cop bootlickers seem to excuse a professional, fully trained officer's mistakes in a tense situation -- yet fault and criticize every scared sh!tless and UNtrained civilian who makes a mistake in a similar scenario. So I don't think it's just about recognizing why cops are trigger happy (which I agree with you about). I think cops need to step up, and people need to step up, and say yes you have a tough job - that you voluntarily accept (there is a surplus of cop applicants) and get paid for and amazing benefits for - but since you are in this position of power/authority, you SHOULD and WILL be held to higher standards. Not lower standards.

One moral dilemma I have, because I do (for the most part) stand with the Black Lives Matter movement, is that they consistently ignore and refuse to acknowledge cop violence against white people. Cops kill more white people (especially violent criminals) and take longer to shoot black suspects than white ones. This stands contrary to everything I've heard, witnessed and experienced, but according to the data, cops basically don't give a fuh and will get away with killing anyone with little to no backlash, regardless of race. However I hate the response "All lives matter" to BLM, and I don't want to condemn a movement that finally brought attention to this issue. I've been a "Cop Blocker" for years and always got shat on for condemning the rampant police brutality and corruption. It wasn't until BLM that people started talking and condemning this, so I kinda like them for that.
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bballcrook21
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7/8/2016 1:56:56 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

You mean the ever improving circumstances of Blacks and the 9 trillion+ we've spent on blacks in the past 40 years?

Guess you just can't fix dindus.
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Semiya
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7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 1:56:56 PM, bballcrook21 wrote:
At 7/8/2016 12:25:08 PM, Semiya wrote:
Black culture is not the problem; the socio-economic circumstances that forced blacks into the position they are in is the problem.

You mean the ever improving circumstances of Blacks and the 9 trillion+ we've spent on blacks in the past 40 years?

Guess you just can't fix dindus.

Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things. Open up the housing market, legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs), and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas, particularly for the development of preschool programs.
Udel
Posts: 103
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7/8/2016 2:28:01 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things. Open up the housing market, legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs), and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses. Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas, particularly for the development of preschool programs.

Yes.
keithprosser
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7/8/2016 2:40:24 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
@YYW
This is entirely irrelevant to what I wrote. This is not about judging or stereotypes, but probability.

If I told you my background you would no doubt be able to calculate my probable income, what car I probably drive and the probability I am divorced or ever been arrested. Those numbers might even be right for some hypothetical Mr Average-Whiteman, but in every case they would be completely wrong about me.

It seems to me that if I was black, your attitude towards me wouldn't be based on me but on your perception of what you think I am 'probably', basing that probability on nothing more than the colour of my skin and ignoring anything else. Is doing that what a rational person would do? It's certainly very convenient and easy - you can (and I think do) make your mind up about a person in under a second. Indeed you don't even have to know anything about somebody except what colour they are - the probabilties are enough, whether they apply to that individual or not. If you don't mean that, why write 'you are more likely to commit crime'?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 2:41:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:28:01 PM, Udel wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things.

Open up the housing market,

We did. It crashed due to defaults, remember?

legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs),

Why?

and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses.

Again, why? Selling drugs to a minor is a non-violent drug related offense. Why should that sentence be reduced?

Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas,

These are already incentivized.

particularly for the development of preschool programs.

Yes.
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Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 2:45:20 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:41:45 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:28:01 PM, Udel wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things.

Open up the housing market,

We did. It crashed due to defaults, remember?

That's an incredibly naive and simplistic assertion to make.

legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs),

Why?

Why? Because marijuana at least is harmless, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Because it's an infringement on personal liberty to ban them. Because they offer an enormous potential source of revenue for the government.

and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses.

Again, why? Selling drugs to a minor is a non-violent drug related offense. Why should that sentence be reduced?

Because the drug will be legalized and should never have been illegal in the first place.

Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas,

These are already incentivized.

No, they're really not.

particularly for the development of preschool programs.

Yes.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 2:56:35 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:45:20 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:41:45 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:28:01 PM, Udel wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things.

Open up the housing market,

We did. It crashed due to defaults, remember?

That's an incredibly naive and simplistic assertion to make.

Well, it didn't crash due to everyone making their payment....

legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs),

Why?

Why? Because marijuana at least is harmless, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Because it's an infringement on personal liberty to ban them. Because they offer an enormous potential source of revenue for the government.

Those reasons (while great, don't get me wrong) are tangential to the issue regarding what has been mentioned re: black culture. Were I to suspect, the most pressing issue is that it would prevent a very specific group that is prone to breaking such a law from having consequences to actions.

and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses.

Again, why? Selling drugs to a minor is a non-violent drug related offense. Why should that sentence be reduced?

Because the drug will be legalized and should never have been illegal in the first place.

So selling controlled substances to a minor is cool with you?

Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas,

These are already incentivized.

No, they're really not.

Yes, they really are. All of those items are something you can write off at the end of the year for tax deduction, which, as I understand the word, is an incentive.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/8/2016 3:02:16 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:56:35 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:45:20 PM, Semiya wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:41:45 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:28:01 PM, Udel wrote:
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things.

Open up the housing market,

We did. It crashed due to defaults, remember?

That's an incredibly naive and simplistic assertion to make.

Well, it didn't crash due to everyone making their payment....

The housing crash is a complex issue, and discussing the reasons for it goes beyond the scope of what we're discussing at the moment; suffice it to say, it did not crash because blacks were afforded the same opportunity to buy houses as whites.

legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs),

Why?

Why? Because marijuana at least is harmless, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Because it's an infringement on personal liberty to ban them. Because they offer an enormous potential source of revenue for the government.

Those reasons (while great, don't get me wrong) are tangential to the issue regarding what has been mentioned re: black culture. Were I to suspect, the most pressing issue is that it would prevent a very specific group that is prone to breaking such a law from having consequences to actions.

Legalizing marijuana isn't about helping blacks; that's more a side benefit. There is no systemic racism against black people. There is only the leftover social, economic, and cultural stances that are its remnants. The substance should not be illegal in the first place.

and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses.

Again, why? Selling drugs to a minor is a non-violent drug related offense. Why should that sentence be reduced?

Because the drug will be legalized and should never have been illegal in the first place.

So selling controlled substances to a minor is cool with you?

Yes, actually, but I understand most of society would completely flip. So fine. Reduce the drinking age to 18 and set drug legalization at that same age. Most offenses are not for selling drugs to minors anyway.

Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas,

These are already incentivized.

No, they're really not.

Yes, they really are. All of those items are something you can write off at the end of the year for tax deduction, which, as I understand the word, is an incentive.

I should clarify: that's not *enough* of an incentive.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,230
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7/8/2016 3:10:45 PM
Posted: 5 months ago
At 7/8/2016 2:24:07 PM, Semiya wrote:
Spending money is pointless if you're spending it in the wrong places or on the wrong things.

Open up the housing market,

We did. It crashed due to defaults, remember?

That's an incredibly naive and simplistic assertion to make.

Well, it didn't crash due to everyone making their payment....

The housing crash is a complex issue, and discussing the reasons for it goes beyond the scope of what we're discussing at the moment; suffice it to say, it did not crash because blacks were afforded the same opportunity to buy houses as whites.

But it still crashed. "opening up" the housing market means easing lending restrictions, correct? This inherently loans money to borrowers previously not worthy of that line of credit, and the obvious results occurred.

legalize marijuana (and potentially other drugs),

Why?

Why? Because marijuana at least is harmless, especially when compared to alcohol and tobacco. Because it's an infringement on personal liberty to ban them. Because they offer an enormous potential source of revenue for the government.

Those reasons (while great, don't get me wrong) are tangential to the issue regarding what has been mentioned re: black culture. Were I to suspect, the most pressing issue is that it would prevent a very specific group that is prone to breaking such a law from having consequences to actions.

Legalizing marijuana isn't about helping blacks; that's more a side benefit.

I would say that makes it more of a discriminatory practice, then.

There is no systemic racism against black people. There is only the leftover social, economic, and cultural stances that are its remnants. The substance should not be illegal in the first place.


and retroactively reduce prison rates for people incarcerated for non-violent drug offenses.

Again, why? Selling drugs to a minor is a non-violent drug related offense. Why should that sentence be reduced?

Because the drug will be legalized and should never have been illegal in the first place.

So selling controlled substances to a minor is cool with you?

Yes, actually, but I understand most of society would completely flip. So fine. Reduce the drinking age to 18 and set drug legalization at that same age. Most offenses are not for selling drugs to minors anyway.

Raise the rate of pay for teachers and incentivize charitable and other private work in inner-city and low-income areas,

These are already incentivized.

No, they're really not.

Yes, they really are. All of those items are something you can write off at the end of the year for tax deduction, which, as I understand the word, is an incentive.

I should clarify: that's not *enough* of an incentive.

Then you have priced consumers out of the market. There would be no reason for suppliers of goods or services to deal with people whom can afford said goods or services: you would get a greater profit margin by donating your work, and writing it off. Profit could only be generated off the consumer if the price of the goods or services were to increase.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...