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Adultery

Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).
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TheGreatAndPowerful
Posts: 3,012
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7/11/2016 5:30:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
There are certainly corner cases where adultery could potentially be justified or excused, but the vast majority are simply expressions of selfishness and cowardace. If you are committed to someone, then you've accepeted some level of responsibility for your actions.

If you no longer wish to be committed, then I think that bears with it the requirement that you actually void the committment before acting like it doesn't exist.
Mr.Wonderful
Posts: 98
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7/11/2016 6:23:46 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I kind of agree... its kinda sad in today's culture where cheating is just kind of accepted as normal I guess. Personally, I always felt like checking cell phones is kind of a stalker type thing to do and if I don't trust a person to the point where I need to check their phone to make sure they aren't cheating on me I think I'd probably be better off looking for a new partner.

Its hard to lie to an old pro anyways... but cheating is kinda obvious if you don't delude yourself into buying the first line of BS you hear... if people don't return phone calls, smell like another guy/girl, call you a different name occasionally, only want to text, and own multiple cellphones then you know... chances are they are cheating. Also, if they disappear for long periods of time and don't have a job that requires it... probably cheating (I did long haul trucking for a while and never cheated but was cheated on quite a bit, so either way long distance relationships are difficult and I never really wanted a woman to tag along... really kind of enjoyed the peace). If they never allow you to come over to their house, request discretion, and tend to disguise themselves (sunglasses, etc.) when they go out... then definitely cheating and probably married... look at the hands if you see a ring imprint and one of those other factors is present... then definitely cheating and definitely married. Casually fit "How's your husband?" into the conversation and see how they answer (you'd be surprised how many people that actually trips up). Just some pro-tips.

Sadly, dating today sucks... it really is very fail. Even 10 years ago it wasn't this bad. Now its pretty much meet someone on the internet (I won't do bars), talk for an hour and decide if you want to sleep with them. It sucks. The worst part is when they are staring at their cellphone the entire time trying to set up other dates... this is no BS... actually had someone tell me that they had three other dates planned and they had to keep it short. I just said "OK" and just started to walk out. She was actually surprised by that and said "aren't you at least gonna pay for lunch? I just told her to check her phone. Ten minutes later I just texted back "thanks for covering my tab" and a middle finger emoji... she sent back the standard "F*ck you"... all in all it was a good lunch. Maybe she got one of the other guys to cover her free meal.

So I think adultery is totally different in this day and age of disposable relationships, its hard to call someone a "cheater" if they never gave a crap in the first place. I'm well past the point of caring if my partner cheats but you should always give as good as you get. I think one really has to evaluate the seriousness of a partner before they commit any time or effort to trying to keep that partner. I'm not out to impress anyone or be impressed... act like a human being or keep moving down the road. Seriously its sad how many 30+ women want to act like teenagers or just want someone else to pay for their kids... thought we'd all be well past that crap... probably why they are single.
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/11/2016 6:26:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 6:23:46 PM, Mr.Wonderful wrote:
Seriously its sad how many 30+ women want to act like teenagers or just want someone else to pay for their kids... thought we'd all be well past that crap... probably why they are single.

Interesting point. I think a lot of people cheat because "the magic dies" in their relationship after awhile, and they want to feel like teenagers again. They miss that excitement, youth, optimism, feeling attractive and wanted, etc. That goes for both men and women.
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Vox_Veritas
Posts: 7,070
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7/11/2016 6:30:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

There is no justification for adultery except if someone held a man's wife and kids at gunpoint and said to the man "Have sex with my wife or else they die!"
The prevailing excuse behind adultery is that you got married to "the wrong person" and that the person you're committing adultery with is the "right person".
Three things that I must say to that:
1. Since there are many unhappy marriages, most young people should learn from those examples and CHOOSE CAREFULLY who they're going to marry.
2. Secondly, there is never any guarantee that a marriage even between the two most compatible people will magically work. For a marriage to not only survive but thrive, both parties must work towards this end diligently and never give up.
3. If you get married five times and it never works out, then the problem is probably with you, not that you married an "incompatible person", and that no partner will be able to "make you happy" over the long run because your mindset is screwed (again, I'm not talking here about you but about a theoretical person who marries and divorced repeatedly).
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Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,280
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7/11/2016 6:31:11 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
I think that polygamy is more 'natural', but that monogamy is the system which we have, and that we can't really realistically change it at this point. For this reason, adultery will always be a biological drive (especially among men), but it should still be socially censured and discouraged in order to create stable relationships and rear children well. I also think that more of a focus on extended family, and less of each generation 'moving away' and becoming alienated, would help to reduce adultery by creating a larger social framework for people to develop within. I also dislike seeing the fifties as a time of 'nostalgia'; I think that the nuclear family model is itself new in the grand scheme of things, and comes with its own set of pathologies.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Semiya
Posts: 405
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7/11/2016 6:34:50 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Have you ever read the polemic "Against Love?" It deals with this topic, and it's actually rather interesting.
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/11/2016 11:01:33 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).
No. But interestingly, it provides a bit of a problem for the "live and let live" philosophy.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/12/2016 12:17:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 11:01:33 PM, someloser wrote:
No. But interestingly, it provides a bit of a problem for the "live and let live" philosophy.

How so?
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rross
Posts: 2,772
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7/12/2016 12:50:31 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
I don't think the outrage is exaggerated. You have to sacrifice a lot for a marriage, and so if the other person is secretly putting it all at risk like that, it's terrible. Especially when an open marriage is a possibility.

For me, the worst would be the secrecy. Like, can I not be trusted to handle reality?
someloser
Posts: 1,377
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7/12/2016 12:52:20 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 12:17:58 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/11/2016 11:01:33 PM, someloser wrote:
No. But interestingly, it provides a bit of a problem for the "live and let live" philosophy.

How so?
Adultery abides by it (in some forms), yet most would consider it immoral nonetheless.
Ego sum qui sum. Deus lo vult.

"America is ungovernable; those who served the revolution have plowed the sea." - Simon Bolivar

"A healthy nation is as unconscious of its nationality as a healthy man of his bones. But if you break a nation's nationality it will think of nothing else but getting it set again." - George Bernard Shaw
YYW
Posts: 36,263
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7/12/2016 3:32:42 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

They totally were. My grandmother tells me about it all the time.... she... likes to get into such subjects.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show).

OMG I love that show. Probably one of the best shows of all time.

And yes, I think that when you weren't tracked and monitored, it was a lot easier to get away with stuff.

It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

I have never cheated on someone with whom I was engaged in a committed relationship, but I think that cheating is always the result of a bigger problem... it tends to happen when you fall out of love with the person you're with, and that means that cheating is just the symptom.
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matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/13/2016 12:31:52 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

I think it is a rare situation in which a couple can have a long-term, monogamous relationship and retain a level of passion to keep the relationship interesting.

Some things to consider:

1. Is spending the rest of your life in a stale relationship acceptable?

2. Are people only able to have a sexual, caring and respectful relationship with only one person at a time?

3. Can one accept that it is reasonable for a partner to live by the same rules?

4. Is it possible to lead an adventurous and exciting life in a dull relationship?

I know some people say that if a relationship is too dull, then you should leave. If someone lived with their best friend, that friendship might get dull too due to overexposure. If that happened, would you want to simply say goodbye to your friend forever?

Nobody likes the hurt that cheating causes but the answers aren't easy...
Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/13/2016 3:37:57 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/12/2016 3:32:42 AM, YYW wrote:
I have never cheated on someone with whom I was engaged in a committed relationship, but I think that cheating is always the result of a bigger problem... it tends to happen when you fall out of love with the person you're with, and that means that cheating is just the symptom.

Good point, but I also think you can be in love with 2 people at the same time.
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Danielle
Posts: 21,330
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7/13/2016 3:39:23 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/13/2016 12:31:52 AM, matt8800 wrote:
Nobody likes the hurt that cheating causes but the answers aren't easy...

That's true. I've had cheating bring up some really important conversations and shed some light on some bigger issues in some relationships. In one particular case, the cheating may have even brought us closer somehow. Well not the cheating itself, but the reconciliation and everything that got brought out in the open as a result.
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matt8800
Posts: 2,077
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7/13/2016 3:58:22 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/13/2016 3:37:57 AM, Danielle wrote:
At 7/12/2016 3:32:42 AM, YYW wrote:
I have never cheated on someone with whom I was engaged in a committed relationship, but I think that cheating is always the result of a bigger problem... it tends to happen when you fall out of love with the person you're with, and that means that cheating is just the symptom.

Good point, but I also think you can be in love with 2 people at the same time.

I agree.
intellectuallyprimitive
Posts: 1,000
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7/14/2016 10:58:08 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

Have you defined "adultery" as "premarital sex?" or as I thought I understood adultery to be "unfaithfulness to a romantic partner sexually.
Geogeer
Posts: 4,227
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8/3/2016 11:00:41 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

Sure it happened... It also happened before that - aka shotgun weddings and before that.... However, in a time when sex was intrinsically linked to children and porn was significantly more limited, people were inherently more cautious towards sex and more innocent in their minds. The number of sexual partners was significantly less than today.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

Adultery is not justifiable. Marriage is the exclusive sexual pairing of a couple for the purposes of begetting and raising children.

There is moral outrage these days? I fail to see it by most people. People don't want their sexual activities criticized, so they do not criticize.
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,205
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8/4/2016 11:17:58 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/13/2016 12:31:52 AM, matt8800 wrote:
At 7/11/2016 4:49:51 PM, Danielle wrote:
I came across this meme online showing black and white pictures of couples from the 1950s. It said "I wish dating was still like this" and had the couples sharing a milkshake or watching a movie at the Drive-In. I chuckled at the notion of "the good ol days," as humans have a tendency to glorify the past and ignore a lot of the problematic realities of the day. Anyway, studies show that people were having premarital sex even in the 1950s and 60s when that was allegedly taboo.

As I finish watching the Mad Men series, which takes place in the 1960s, it got me thinking about how rampant adultery must have been back then (as on the show). It must have been so easy to get away with it before cell phones! That got me thinking about the morality of adultery in general. Most people agree that it's immoral as it is a dishonest betrayal to your spouse, even if you accept that "monogamy isn't natural."

Do you believe adultery can be justifiable? Is the moral outrage exaggerated given how popular it is (though people don't like to admit it?).

I think it is a rare situation in which a couple can have a long-term, monogamous relationship and retain a level of passion to keep the relationship interesting.

Some things to consider:

1. Is spending the rest of your life in a stale relationship acceptable?

Of course not. Get a divorce. Break up. Split, etc.

2. Are people only able to have a sexual, caring and respectful relationship with only one person at a time?

Yes.

3. Can one accept that it is reasonable for a partner to live by the same rules?

Yes.


4. Is it possible to lead an adventurous and exciting life in a dull relationship?

Probably not, if your life hinges on your relationship.

I know some people say that if a relationship is too dull, then you should leave. If someone lived with their best friend, that friendship might get dull too due to overexposure. If that happened, would you want to simply say goodbye to your friend forever?

Not forever. No reason for that if one realized what was up.

Nobody likes the hurt that cheating causes but the answers aren't easy...

Sure they are. Split. Stop the problematic behavior that leads to infidelity.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
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