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Being Gay

Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?
FaustianJustice
Posts: 6,240
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7/22/2016 4:40:18 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

To often people confuse "deviant", "abnormal", "irregular" etc with 'immoral'. I personally don't feel calling homosexuality ab/not-normal is wrong provided we are strictly talking about comparison to a norm, which indeed would make homosexuality not normal, given the percentage of people that are part of that demographic.
Here we have an advocate for Islamic arranged marriages demonstrating that children can consent to sex.
http://www.debate.org...
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/22/2016 4:48:35 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 4:40:18 PM, FaustianJustice wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

To often people confuse "deviant", "abnormal", "irregular" etc with 'immoral'. I personally don't feel calling homosexuality ab/not-normal is wrong provided we are strictly talking about comparison to a norm, which indeed would make homosexuality not normal, given the percentage of people that are part of that demographic.

Yes.

Have we come to a point in American culture where every thing needs context? I understand that the brain creates shortcuts to increase efficiency, but to conflate measures with morality is beyond me.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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7/22/2016 5:25:48 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

I think that the entire idea of normality is constructed, and isn't synonymous with 'common'. Some aspects of 'normality' are actually uncommon when you look at all demographics (two kids, minivan, moderately sized house, a dog, mom and dad still married). Norms are what society expects people to do, not what they actually do on average, so saying that being gay is not normal has a twinge of the prescriptive about it.

norm
n.
1.
a. A pattern that is regarded as typical of something: a neighborhood where families with two wage-earners are the norm.
b. A standard or expectation that is established for a given enterprise or effort: journalistic norms.
c. A pattern of behavior considered acceptable or proper by a social group: violated the norms of his community.
2. Mathematics
a. An average.
b. The magnitude of a vector.
c. The modulus of a complex number.

You are essentially using the mathematical definition of a sociological context. That isn't morally wrong in itself or anything, it's just bad word usage in general.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/22/2016 5:33:58 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 5:25:48 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

I think that the entire idea of normality is constructed, and isn't synonymous with 'common'. Some aspects of 'normality' are actually uncommon when you look at all demographics (two kids, minivan, moderately sized house, a dog, mom and dad still married). Norms are what society expects people to do, not what they actually do on average, so saying that being gay is not normal has a twinge of the prescriptive about it.

norm
n.
1.
a. A pattern that is regarded as typical of something: a neighborhood where families with two wage-earners are the norm.
b. A standard or expectation that is established for a given enterprise or effort: journalistic norms.
c. A pattern of behavior considered acceptable or proper by a social group: violated the norms of his community.
2. Mathematics
a. An average.
b. The magnitude of a vector.
c. The modulus of a complex number.

You are essentially using the mathematical definition of a sociological context. That isn't morally wrong in itself or anything, it's just bad word usage in general.

I can get down with that.

I do however tend to believe most social norms are a continuance of biological norms. This is not universal. I also realize that some things are social constructs e.g. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, kind of deal.
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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7/22/2016 5:36:47 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 5:33:58 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 7/22/2016 5:25:48 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

I think that the entire idea of normality is constructed, and isn't synonymous with 'common'. Some aspects of 'normality' are actually uncommon when you look at all demographics (two kids, minivan, moderately sized house, a dog, mom and dad still married). Norms are what society expects people to do, not what they actually do on average, so saying that being gay is not normal has a twinge of the prescriptive about it.

norm
n.
1.
a. A pattern that is regarded as typical of something: a neighborhood where families with two wage-earners are the norm.
b. A standard or expectation that is established for a given enterprise or effort: journalistic norms.
c. A pattern of behavior considered acceptable or proper by a social group: violated the norms of his community.
2. Mathematics
a. An average.
b. The magnitude of a vector.
c. The modulus of a complex number.

You are essentially using the mathematical definition of a sociological context. That isn't morally wrong in itself or anything, it's just bad word usage in general.

I can get down with that.

I do however tend to believe most social norms are a continuance of biological norms. This is not universal. I also realize that some things are social constructs e.g. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, kind of deal.

I don't understand the concept of biological norms, as a biologist. Biology is brutally neutral in my experience.

What in specific do you mean by the term?
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/22/2016 5:56:44 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 5:36:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/22/2016 5:33:58 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 7/22/2016 5:25:48 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

I think that the entire idea of normality is constructed, and isn't synonymous with 'common'. Some aspects of 'normality' are actually uncommon when you look at all demographics (two kids, minivan, moderately sized house, a dog, mom and dad still married). Norms are what society expects people to do, not what they actually do on average, so saying that being gay is not normal has a twinge of the prescriptive about it.

norm
n.
1.
a. A pattern that is regarded as typical of something: a neighborhood where families with two wage-earners are the norm.
b. A standard or expectation that is established for a given enterprise or effort: journalistic norms.
c. A pattern of behavior considered acceptable or proper by a social group: violated the norms of his community.
2. Mathematics
a. An average.
b. The magnitude of a vector.
c. The modulus of a complex number.

You are essentially using the mathematical definition of a sociological context. That isn't morally wrong in itself or anything, it's just bad word usage in general.

I can get down with that.

I do however tend to believe most social norms are a continuance of biological norms. This is not universal. I also realize that some things are social constructs e.g. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, kind of deal.

I don't understand the concept of biological norms, as a biologist. Biology is brutally neutral in my experience.

What in specific do you mean by the term?

Men and Women perfectly balance one another. This is a situation that is in no way neutral, the combined outcome is neutral. I think the majority of "social constructs" are attributed to things men and women are naturally drawn to. Women are often nurturing creatures, which makes sense because babies. This nurturing mentality bleeds into many aspects of their life. Again, strictly speaking this is the rule, there are always exceptions.
Heterodox
Posts: 293
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7/22/2016 6:42:53 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

As far as I know we still have the freedom of speech, though it's been under attack a lot recently, at least in the U.S.

So, if by "ok" you mean legal, sure.

And as for common sense, yes it is "ok" to say it there as well. As animals sexual gratification is in place for reproduction purposes. Obviously this is not happening in a same sex experience. So, it is not normal.
Otto_Hasenkamp
Posts: 31
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7/23/2016 4:48:33 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

In my book, is being gay normal? No. Are gays normal people? Sometimes.
These gays aren't normal people.
http://fratres.files.wordpress.com...

These gays are normal people.
http://itsconceivablenow.com...

Do you see the difference?
"Vor uns liegt Deutschland, in uns marschiert Deutschland, und hinter uns, kommt Deutschland!"
Skepsikyma
Posts: 8,286
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7/23/2016 6:53:32 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 5:56:44 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
At 7/22/2016 5:36:47 PM, Skepsikyma wrote:
At 7/22/2016 5:33:58 PM, Robkwoods wrote:

I can get down with that.

I do however tend to believe most social norms are a continuance of biological norms. This is not universal. I also realize that some things are social constructs e.g. boys wear blue, girls wear pink, kind of deal.

I don't understand the concept of biological norms, as a biologist. Biology is brutally neutral in my experience.

What in specific do you mean by the term?

Men and Women perfectly balance one another. This is a situation that is in no way neutral, the combined outcome is neutral. I think the majority of "social constructs" are attributed to things men and women are naturally drawn to. Women are often nurturing creatures, which makes sense because babies. This nurturing mentality bleeds into many aspects of their life. Again, strictly speaking this is the rule, there are always exceptions.

I think that there are certainly biological explanations for gender disparities, but I think that this also applies to homosexual desires.
"The Collectivist experiment is thoroughly suited (in appearance at least) to the Capitalist society which it proposes to replace. It works with the existing machinery of Capitalism, talks and thinks in the existing terms of Capitalism, appeals to just those appetites which Capitalism has aroused, and ridicules as fantastic and unheard-of just those things in society the memory of which Capitalism has killed among men wherever the blight of it has spread."
- Hilaire Belloc -
Axonly
Posts: 1,802
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7/23/2016 6:58:29 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

There's a lot of grey areas in this question I suspect.

Would it be ok to call an Asian person "Not normal" if he was in an area where White people are the majority?
Meh!
missbailey8
Posts: 1,886
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7/23/2016 9:09:59 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?
Just because the overwhelming majority isn't gay doesn't mean that it isn't normal. With this logic, you could say that being a ginger or having blue eyes isn't normal because the overwhelming majority of people don't have red hair or blue eyes.
~missbailey8~

Me: What is the weirdest thing I have ever done?
Solon: Agreeing to date me.

Skep: Bailey, you have sardonic written all over your face.
Annie: She has gorgeous written all over her face!

"[M]en are weak. All of us are weak."
-Fatihah

If you ever just want someone to vent, rant, or discuss anything troubling you, my PMs are always open. Have a fabulous day!

The Clown Queen of DDO
missbailey8
Posts: 1,886
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7/23/2016 9:14:47 AM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 4:48:33 AM, Otto_Hasenkamp wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

In my book, is being gay normal? No.
How so?
Are gays normal people? Sometimes.
Why only sometimes? Does this also apply to straight people?
These gays aren't normal people.
http://fratres.files.wordpress.com...
How do you define normal exactly? A picture doesn't exactly define if someone is normal or not, no matter how strange it might look.

These gays are normal people.
http://itsconceivablenow.com...

Do you see the difference?
~missbailey8~

Me: What is the weirdest thing I have ever done?
Solon: Agreeing to date me.

Skep: Bailey, you have sardonic written all over your face.
Annie: She has gorgeous written all over her face!

"[M]en are weak. All of us are weak."
-Fatihah

If you ever just want someone to vent, rant, or discuss anything troubling you, my PMs are always open. Have a fabulous day!

The Clown Queen of DDO
Otto_Hasenkamp
Posts: 31
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7/23/2016 1:29:03 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
How so?
Homosexuality contradicts basic human reproduction. Homosexuality is not average/common. They're both a minority in humans and a minority in animals as a whole (which not necessarily a bad thing of course).

How do you define normal exactly? A picture doesn't exactly define if someone is normal or not, no matter how strange it might look.
I thought the pictures spoke loud enough.
I define normal as a person who wants to have a normal, tranquil life. If you go on a gay parade dressing like a woman, having sex in public and going naked on the streets just for the sake of your pride, on my book, that is pure degeneracy, and no amount of "muh feelings, they're people too" will change my stance.
We get it, you have fetishes. There is absolutely no need to parade what you do in your bedroom on the streets.
"Vor uns liegt Deutschland, in uns marschiert Deutschland, und hinter uns, kommt Deutschland!"
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/23/2016 1:32:40 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 6:58:29 AM, Axonly wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

There's a lot of grey areas in this question I suspect.

Would it be ok to call an Asian person "Not normal" if he was in an area where White people are the majority?

Yes, I like where you went with this.
Otto_Hasenkamp
Posts: 31
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7/23/2016 1:43:01 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 9:09:59 AM, missbailey8 wrote:
Just because the overwhelming majority isn't gay doesn't mean that it isn't normal. With this logic, you could say that being a ginger or having blue eyes isn't normal because the overwhelming majority of people don't have red hair or blue eyes.
Normal is defined as "conforming to the standard or the common type; usual; not abnormal; regular; natural."
I don't really see the problem here.
No, gingers are not normal. Blue eyes are not normal. Not normal doesn't always equal bad or dysfunctional.
Are left-handed people normal? No, they aren't. This doesn't necessarily mean that right-handed people are better.
"Vor uns liegt Deutschland, in uns marschiert Deutschland, und hinter uns, kommt Deutschland!"
HeavenlyPanda
Posts: 819
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7/23/2016 2:38:12 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

Most people would freak out on you because they either want to sound like they're morally good, or they don't understand the context. It's ok to say that being gay is not normal considering that most people are not gay. Therefore it is not normal. Saying that its not normal in a bad way depends on who is the speaker.
HeavenlyPanda. The most heavenly of all heavenly creatures.
Robkwoods
Posts: 576
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7/23/2016 2:43:54 PM
Posted: 4 months ago
At 7/23/2016 2:38:12 PM, HeavenlyPanda wrote:
At 7/22/2016 3:53:53 PM, Robkwoods wrote:
Is it ok to say being Gay is not normal?

Like not in bad way, just the fact that an overwhelming majority are not gay?

Most people would freak out on you because they either want to sound like they're morally good, or they don't understand the context. It's ok to say that being gay is not normal considering that most people are not gay. Therefore it is not normal. Saying that its not normal in a bad way depends on who is the speaker.

Virtue signalling is one of my least favorite things. haha, context is key